MavsBoard

(10-09-2020, 12:51 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-09-2020, 12:36 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]To me, now is the time to discuss what we ourselves would like to see happen, not what we think they'll do.

Man, it's good to know how folks think when communicating with each other. I had no idea you thought like this. I actually always hold both in my mind, what I want to see happen, and what I think the Mavs may think and do.

I guess this is the crux of why we're pretty consistently on opposite sides of an argument.

(10-09-2020, 12:56 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]We know that starting had a positive effect on Hardaway's play, but was this decision made because A) they KNEW he was going to be here, and to win, they had to maximize HIS value, while Curry was still good coming off the bench, or B) on top of the benefits to Hardaway's usefulness, the staring lineup worked BETTER as a whole with him than it did with Curry in it. 

I am not THJ hater, but I think it was A and also a little B. First they thought THJ would be the 6th man, but that kind of players need to be able to create. It was soon clear that THJ is bad at creating, either for himself or other, that's why he was bad in 6th man role and that's why he was bad in NY. On the other hand he is an elite catch and shoot player, much better than Curry because he can shoot higher volume. Curry on the other hand is a bit better at creating, so more suitable for that bench creating job. And to this note - the original starter was meant to be Wright, but was soon replaced by Curry. I think Curry was actually seen as bench guard the day they signed him. Still, as we know, they need a better secondary creator.

(10-09-2020, 01:08 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-09-2020, 12:56 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]We know that starting had a positive effect on Hardaway's play, but was this decision made because A) they KNEW he was going to be here, and to win, they had to maximize HIS value, while Curry was still good coming off the bench, or B) on top of the benefits to Hardaway's usefulness, the staring lineup worked BETTER as a whole with him than it did with Curry in it. 

I am not THJ hater, but I think it was A and also a little B. First they thought THJ would be the 6th man, but that kind of players need to be able to create. It was soon clear that THJ is bad at creating, either for himself or other, that's why he was bad in 6th man role and that's why he was bad in NY. On the other hand he is an elite catch and shoot player, much better than Curry because he can shoot higher volume. Curry on the other hand is a bit better at creating, so more suitable for that bench creating job. And to this note - the original starter was meant to be Wright, but was soon replaced by Curry. I think Curry was actually seen as bench guard the day they signed him. Still, as we know, they need a better secondary creator.

Great stuff here, my dude. I buy it.

(10-09-2020, 12:56 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Did BWright and Chandler really spend much time playing together that season though? I honestly don't remember, but I would assume not. 

You make a good point about Curry here. We know Carlisle was conflicted about what to do with he and THJ, and that he ultimately decide on THJ in the starting lineup and Curry off the bench. I believe that against some teams, they BOTH would've started in the playoffs, with Powell injured. Not trying to involve yet another polarized political party in the conversation, but I would be very interested in Calrlisle's honest answer to the following question:

We know that starting had a positive effect on Hardaway's play, but was this decision made because A) they KNEW he was going to be here, and to win, they had to maximize HIS value, while Curry was still good coming off the bench, or B) on top of the benefits to Hardaway's usefulness, the staring lineup worked BETTER as a whole with him than it did with Curry in it. 

I suspect the THJ supporters here, like myself, tend to think B, while the haters would lean A. I can't honestly claim to know the answer though. IF Curry IS that 2nd ball handler I've been screaming for, then it's A, because THJ is not. He's an elite floor spacer, nothing more, nothing less.  In that case, I think Hardaway is in Curry's way. But, again, I think it's B. I think they're BOTH floor spacers, and that THJ is actually the better one. 

That's a little convoluted, sorry. I hope it makes sense.

TC and BWright didn't play together much at all. But those weren't the only two players that were toward the basket players. I brought that team up because it makes me wonder if the Mavs are thinking about using more towards the basket gravity than is the current trend. I'm just trying to figure out if they think KP and Powell together can work. Spitballing a bit.

I don't think THJ can be the secondary ball handler. I think Seth might could, but not sure. That "better than Burke" guy that we were talking about might be what we're looking for. But don't know if we can get one.

(10-09-2020, 12:51 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-09-2020, 12:36 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]To me, now is the time to discuss what we ourselves would like to see happen, not what we think they'll do.

Man, it's good to know how folks think when communicating with each other. I had no idea you thought like this. I actually always hold both in my mind, what I want to see happen, and what I think the Mavs may think and do.

I guess the reason I never saw any value in thinking about what they WILL do is because whatever they DO do will happen whether or not we predict it. So in that sense, it doesn't really matter. I just try to reset at the beginning of the year with an eye toward hoping that what they did do was the right approach and basically temporarily buying into their hype until I feel otherwise is warranted.

(10-09-2020, 01:40 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]I guess the reason I never saw any value in thinking about what they WILL do is because whatever they DO do will happen whether or not we predict it. So in that sense, it doesn't really matter. I just try to reset at the beginning of the year with an eye toward hoping that what they did do was the right approach and basically temporarily buying into their hype until I feel otherwise is warranted.

That's cool. It's good to know that. I'll try to read through that filter. I can't really seperate the two because I'm always thinking about both, my guesses about what they will do, and what I'd prefer that they do. What I think they're thinking acts as a bit of a governer in my thinking. For example, I'd have a hard time projecting DP as a possible 8 mpg player without a caveot. I'd have to say that, if healthy, there's no way I think the Mavs do that. Or, I'd have to say, "I think DP is an 8 mpg player, but I don't think the Mavs do that unless he's much less of a player than he used to be.

Ya, I try to be careful to add those caveats and qualifiers to my posts in an attempt to make sure the reader follow it as my thought. I should do a better job of that though.

---

Also, I’ll do the same as I haven’t been very good at reading through that filter for you or KL either.

---

I think one of the reasons why I think this way is because when I first started reading Fish’s site (roughly around 96 or 97), every year around the middle of the season there were 1 or 2 posters that would get fed up with some posters and say “what else could they have done”. That question always urked me cause there was a whole offseason of things that were plausable, plus there’s always transactions that could have been beat or whatever the case was.

I like WCS a lot, and his contract is great. The other thing that benefits the Mavs is with his 2.2 mil salary that adds an additional filler salary for some trade ideas. One of Boban, WCS is expendable (Boban has 3.5 mil on the books). If you combine WCS/Jackson/Wright you get to a little over 20 mil in a 125% trade match.

WCS in a stand-alone deal is also good to get a smaller piece without using MLE. His salary would much 2.75 mil coming back. I think a lot of teams would be interested in WCS as a rotational big.

---

My fave trade idea so far is probably Seth for J Rich, even though I love Seth. You would be getting a starting SG for a player you just signed last offseason who is more of a 6th man role.

If you did that trade straight up (not sure if they would need more compensation) you would still have Wright/Jackson/picks to make another move like Oubre.

You have a lineup of Luka, J Rich, Hardaway, Oubre or DFS and KP. One of Hardaway, Oubre or DFS could be moved to the bench. You'd still have MLE for some smaller moves like bringing back Burke.

In 2021 if you strike out on a big fish you have the option to bring back all of J Rich, Hardaway, Oubre (or whoever you get in a Wright + picks package) + MLE.

That would be a productive offseason imo. I am higher on J Rich than some other ppl but I like his fit a lot.

I'd give Curry + 31 for Richardson. I don't know if Philadelphia bites, but they are certainly desperate for shooting. And they can't be looking forward to re-signing Richardson with all those luxury tax payments in their future.

(10-09-2020, 08:27 PM)loki Wrote: [ -> ]I'd give Curry + 31 for Richardson. I don't know if Philadelphia bites, but they are certainly desperate for shooting. And they can't be looking forward to re-signing Richardson with all those luxury tax payments in their future.

Nooo, milk *them* for a pick. They bite, absolutely, because 1) they need shooting, and 2) Seth and Doc are friggin' family.

Not sure I would even do Seth for Richardson straight up. The latter is a far better defender, but I'm not sure he measures up as a creator, and the shooting is way worse. Consider this - if you trade for Richardson in order to have him start, then you have two non-creators next to Luka locked in (at least for the year) on the perimeter. Unless we sign AD this offseason, or KP develops point guard skills, then you have the same problems as last year. Where that deal becomes attractive is if *we* get picks - plural - back.

The Mavs made at least two major roster errors last year - 1) presuming that Wright was going to be able to succeed off-ball and supplementarily next to Luka in the starting lineup, and 2) thinking that THJ could create his own shot. If the Mavs are going to view THJ as a pure C-and-S guy moving forward, then they have to get that Jrue type in the starting lineup between him and Luka, and also get a monster defender at the four. I see no legitimate future for both THJ and DFS in the starting lineup on a contending Mavs team, I'd rather have DFS there, and THJ is an expensive bench player. If THJ is playing for the Mavs in '21-'22, it had better be at Seth Curry money, or that's some straight up horse poop.

(10-07-2020, 12:58 AM)Mapka Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-06-2020, 11:20 PM)cjeter24 Wrote: [ -> ]I don't get the hate on Buddy's contract. 

Your shooting guys consistently get in the 15-20 mill range. And Buddy is elite in that skillset. Next year at 24 mill is a bit expensive. But 22, 20 and 18 the next few years is perfectly reasonable. And by the end of the deal, it's a big time bargain if the cap is on the rise again. 

Buddy is a much better offensive version of THJ. They both are similarly great spot up shooters. But THJ is in the 30th percentile shooting off screens compared to the near 80th percentile for buddy. 

If you like THJ fit here long term, Buddy is an even better fit and you are likely going to have to pay THJ handsomely as well if he repeats his season. 

If you'd say you just want to get rid of THJ type guy completely, I can buy that too. 

I personally loved the way the offense looked with shooters all around Luka. I think getting an elite shooter is a big time upgrade for the offensive potential.

---

I don't hope we pay THJ near 24 millions. We raged about him getting less than Buddys "bargain".

As far as fit in the playing style goes I like what I saw from THJ.
He wasn't afraid to pull the trigger. That's what you will probably get from Buddy too. Buddy adds some motor on the offence and less trying on the defence.

THJ also is a stable for our locker room, a real pro. You won't get this from Buddy. 
 
In the end you gamble about Buddy being a good enough 3rd player or THJ keeping up his play.

I don't remember anyone raging about THJ's contract other than this guy is awful and we have to keep him for 3 more years lol. But now he's good and his contract isn't a problem for him being a good player again. 

I don't think Buddy is a problem. The kings are an absolute cluster and have been. I mean you can come up with so many examples. Frustration unfortunately comes out eventually. 

I think they are basically the same level of defender. The point of Buddy is if you buy into THJ being a long term fit and want a better version of him. I actually do. I'd like to resign THJ if possible.

---

I don't understand the OPJ love around here. I saw some talk about having to trade 18 for him? I'd think if that was really a thing, he'd be opting out of his deal. 

He's a 3rd or 4th piece with defensive potential way overpaid. About to be a free agent next summer. Sure I'd be interested in him next summer. But he's not a difference maker with his current play and I'm not wasting assets to eat contracts and take a gamble on a guy.

also I don't think you need to dump Wright. He's a really solid backup guard that's pretty efficient. He's just a really bad fit here with Luka even tho his stats are pretty solid. Point is, I think you'll have some interest in him.

I for one could see a Green for Wright swap or something similar. He's a PG and not much of an offball guard like we need him to be.

This isn't a knock on him because it's completely fine, but I just don't think WCS loves the game enough to maximize his athletic gifts or rather, his passion for his other interests outweighs his passion for basketball.

Wright might be solid, but he doesn't fit here with or without Luka. He doesn't want to be here (brother's tweet) and Carlisle doesn't want him here either (erratic playing time).

No interesting in swapping Richardson for Curry, definitely not at the cost of our pick and still not even if it included theirs.

(10-09-2020, 09:07 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]Nooo, milk *them* for a pick. They bite, absolutely, because 1) they need shooting, and 2) Seth and Doc are friggin' family.

You are so unrealistic. You don't like Richardson, ok - I don't have problem with that. You don't want to trade Curry for him, I am also ok. We can debate about that. I don't agree with your assessment about non creation plus he is an overall better player than Curry, which basically all the stats confirm, with the exception of 3 point percentage.

But saying Philly would even consider paying picks to trade him for Curry, is unrealistic and just can't be debated. Sure the fit of Curry is better for them, although we could debate if they consider him good enough to be a starter. Philly gets his controlled contract and three point shooting while it gives up an overall better player who is also much younger. If we could pull out a straight deal is a major success. If we pay #31, I am still ok.

(10-09-2020, 09:08 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]The only way you can move Powell is if HE comes back and plays well again. And ironically, if he were to do that, I’m not sure they’d want to move him. 

They LIKE Powell. They DON’T think he’s overpaid (before the injury). They gave him the contract. 


Why does this have to be Palestine vs Israel, Coke vs Pepsi, etc? Can’t we just be excited that it looks like the team is getting TWO good players back?

This has probably been one of the better "Powell sucks.  Now he's actually good" conversations we've had around here.  My thoughts on a few things:

I'm glad to have WCS on the team.  I thought we needed another big when the season started.  I felt with KP's uncertain health and availability we were short a guy like Willie.   Unfortunately, the need proved to be real.  He would have helped in the playoffs (but if he had, he might not be opting in).  

I agree with your take on Powell.  I suspect he starts if fully healthy.  That means most "Big" minutes going to KP/Powell/Maxi/WCS and less DFS at the four.  I think there will be some, but more of a "death" lineup that a standard lineup.  Maxi, Powell and WCS are all good perimeter defenders and if WCS is hitting outside shots, you can mix and match any two of them at the big spots.  A year from now you have EB rights on WCS and can pay anything up to the MLE with a relatively small cap hold.  It is a good position to be in.  

The KP became good "because" Powell went down argument is garbage.  KP wasn't ready yet.  The problem with KP was KP, not Powell.  There is no rule that says KP has to go stand in the corner any time Powell is in the game.  That was a team choice.  Now that we've seen what offensively active KP looks like, we won't backtrack.  That doesn't mean Powell can't be a really good dive cut guy and secondary PnR target and be super effective. 

This still leaves us with a major fork in the road regarding 2021...to Powder or not to Powder.

At $109mm for the 21 cap, Dallas can have its picks and the WCS cap hold and a max slot if it lets THJ walk, gets rid of Wright for no returning cap space and gets rid of one more player from among Curry, Kleber and Powell.  They can use the MLE, but only on a one year deal.  Another way of looking at Plan Powder is you are trading THJ, Kleber (or Curry), the MLE and Wright for FA "X".  When you start to pile up the cost of Plan Powder in a $109mm world, it gets pretty expensive.  

Here's my question.  If we are willing to trade Fan Fav's like Curry in Kleber in 2021 (which is necessary if you want a seat at the grown up table of free agency), then why are they untouchable this off season?  I realize no one in the Giannis and AD and Jrue range are available this off-season.  But, if we can get 75% of Giannis and give up much less than what we'd give for him (and keep our fan favorites and use the MLE now), should we go ahead and go for it?

(10-10-2020, 08:00 AM)DanSchwartzman Wrote: [ -> ]This still leaves us with a major fork in the road regarding 2021...to Powder or not to Powder.

There is also another danger of 2021 free agency. Giannis might take some time to make a decision, during which other relevant free agents might sign their contracts. So do you want to risk waiting for him and losing or do you go safe way and sign best you can? I prefer the safe way.

(10-10-2020, 02:03 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-09-2020, 09:07 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]Nooo, milk *them* for a pick. They bite, absolutely, because 1) they need shooting, and 2) Seth and Doc are friggin' family.

You are so unrealistic. You don't like Richardson, ok - I don't have problem with that. You don't want to trade Curry for him, I am also ok. We can debate about that. I don't agree with your assessment about non creation plus he is an overall better player than Curry, which basically all the stats confirm, with the exception of 3 point percentage.

But saying Philly would even consider paying picks to trade him for Curry, is unrealistic and just can't be debated. Sure the fit of Curry is better for them, although we could debate if they consider him good enough to be a starter. Philly gets his controlled contract and three point shooting while it gives up an overall better player who is also much younger. If we could pull out a straight deal is a major success. If we pay #31, I am still ok.

Guhgree. And I love Curry I really do. I just want a championship and sometimes that means parting with players you really like.

(10-10-2020, 08:00 AM)DanSchwartzman Wrote: [ -> ]The KP became good "because" Powell went down argument is garbage.  KP wasn't ready yet.  The problem with KP was KP, not Powell.  There is no rule that says KP has to go stand in the corner any time Powell is in the game.  That was a team choice.  Now that we've seen what offensively active KP looks like, we won't backtrack.  That doesn't mean Powell can't be a really good dive cut guy and secondary PnR target and be super effective.

Look, I hope you're right about the above. And I agree that KP was still working into shape at the beginning of the season.

However, I ALSO believe that Carlisle WANTED KP to act as a simple spacer when working with the Luka/Powell pick and roll, as you seem to understand with the underlined, emboldened text. If that's the case, does KP's level of comfort and confidence really have anything to do with how his touches affect the game? 

Flip it around: Is Powell's skillset ideal for any offensive action you can envision being run through KP? Like, we know KP can space (at a LEGENDARY level) for Luka/Powell...what, if anything, can Powell do for Luka/KP? 

My takeaway was that Carlisle looked at the pieces he'd have in the starting lineup and designed an offense around the Luka/Powell pick and roll with KP as a SPACER. I don't know that I want my $160 million player being (only) a spacer, and I thought by the end of the year, they were at least involving him in some actions. You say this had nothing to do with Powell's absence. I'm not so sure about that. I do think there's a crossroads of sorts surrounding this, though maybe not a dire one.

---

(10-10-2020, 08:00 AM)DanSchwartzman Wrote: [ -> ]This still leaves us with a major fork in the road regarding 2021...to Powder or not to Powder.

At $109mm for the 21 cap, Dallas can have its picks and the WCS cap hold and a max slot if it lets THJ walk, gets rid of Wright for no returning cap space and gets rid of one more player from among Curry, Kleber and Powell.  They can use the MLE, but only on a one year deal.  Another way of looking at Plan Powder is you are trading THJ, Kleber (or Curry), the MLE and Wright for FA "X".  When you start to pile up the cost of Plan Powder in a $109mm world, it gets pretty expensive.  

Here's my question.  If we are willing to trade Fan Fav's like Curry in Kleber in 2021 (which is necessary if you want a seat at the grown up table of free agency), then why are they untouchable this off season?  I realize no one in the Giannis and AD and Jrue range are available this off-season.  But, if we can get 75% of Giannis and give up much less than what we'd give for him (and keep our fan favorites and use the MLE now), should we go ahead and go for it?

Totally agree with all the thinking above, and I'm sure the Mavs would, too. The problem is that I haven't seen one, single suggested scenario that's 75% of Giannis, tbh. That doesn't mean it's not out there. We won't know what they're doing until they do it, as per usual. I have always maintained that if you get what you need now, you do it! But, I just can't see what that might be, whereas in the cap space scenario, there seem to be way more possibilities. 

My thoughts won't change on this: You don't clear space early and carry it through next season, obviously, and you can even bring in new players. But, unless those new players improve your present and future outlook SIGNIFICANTLY (much, much better than the majority of targets we've been throwing against the wall around here lately) then I think you have to stay in a position to get to max space in 1-2 easy moves. Moves that won't require attached picks to get you there.

(10-10-2020, 08:50 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-10-2020, 08:00 AM)DanSchwartzman Wrote: [ -> ]This still leaves us with a major fork in the road regarding 2021...to Powder or not to Powder.

There is also another danger of 2021 free agency. Giannis might take some time to make a decision, during which other relevant free agents might sign their contracts. So do you want to risk waiting for him and losing or do you go safe way and sign best you can? I prefer the safe way.

I don't think Giannis is even making it to free agency. If you are winning as many as games as they are every year, they are close to being able to bust thru IMO. If Bucks show they are willing to spend and make moves... Why does he leave? Good coach and for all indications it seems to be a decent franchise again with good ownership. 

For someone still young and doesn't have the motivation as some of these other guys (wanting to go to LA, chasing championships), I see very little reason to leave.

(10-10-2020, 11:53 AM)cjeter24 Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think Giannis is even making it to free agency.

That would certainly be a relief

How valuable would it have been to have this guy on the roster instead of Justin Jackson?  Not to mention the recruiting angle...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pev67CeHThY&feature=emb_logo