MavsBoard

(11-25-2020, 10:15 AM)swaggerbox Wrote: [ -> ]barnes

Fair point. Forgot about him. 

Honestly if anyone actually looks at Barnes and is upset about it... They dumb. Barnes sure wasn't upset a few months later when he got paid. Mavs did him a massive favor for trading him to a team that was going to resign him. They weren't. They weren't trading him to upgrade but to have $$.

(11-25-2020, 11:09 AM)ClutchDirk Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1331628971805564931

Don't work with Ainge!

(11-25-2020, 11:09 AM)ClutchDirk Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1331628971805564931

Expand the James Johnson deal and include Powell going to Charlotte. We take back Batum's expiring and get Bridges. Boston gets nothing but a TE. 
This makes no logical sense for anyone but the Mavs but I say we push for it anyways haha.

(11-25-2020, 11:04 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]The Mavs HAVE traded people more ruthlessly than many other teams. That’s for sure. It’s important to point out that both Bill and Jackie were clear that this was speculation, and not what they have been told. But, players do notice things like what happened to Barnes, which wasn’t a great look, imo. 

However, I’m sure players also notice Cuban’s politics and how he’s taking care of Delonte West, too. 

At the end of the day, I’d say the most important things are A) how players are treated when they’re here and B) the shape of the team and chance to win.

If you say more ruthlessly than others, which other franchises do you talk about? 

This is a business and everybody knows. But Boston refuses to pay the retirement bonus contracts to their former greats. Nobody can say this about the Mavs. (Timmy D., Wade, Kobe, Dirk, Devin, JJ.)

(11-25-2020, 11:06 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-25-2020, 11:04 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]The Mavs HAVE traded people more ruthlessly than many other teams. That’s for sure.

Can you offer more examples than Barnes (which I am with @"dirkfansince1998" that this just isn't fair or true, he was TOLD and chose to play)?

How happy do you think Mathews and Jordan were about heading to New York? 

Since we know that players HATE being traded, it seems logical to assume that teams who trade more frequently than other teams might risk being viewed in a certain light by players. Do I think it’s a huge issue, to the point of warranting this doom and gloom discussion? No, not at all. I’m basically on your side of the argument, though I don’t feel the need to completely squash it down, either. There’s probably a little truth to it, but it’s not a big deal. On the podcast in question, it was merely a passing piece of speculation and not really dwelled on at all. 

The more relevant application of this reflection is inward, towards the people in this community. Many of us seem to want EVERY possible player “upgraded” at EVERY opportunity, as if this was NBA 2K. The reality is that teams are comprised of PEOPLE, and people need continuity and familiarity in their lives. Change is good and shouldn’t be feared, but every time you make a major change it requires time to catch back up to where the machine was with the fit of the original player. 

I think it’s funny that on the same message board, in the same thread, we can simultaneously have people arguing that the team makes too many trades and others screaming for more.

@"KillerLeft" I just didn't understand your statement "more ruthlessly than many other teams"....I just don't see that. My read over the last 20 years plus is that the Mavs are VERY mindful of their players as people and even when business needs to happen, tend to do it with a level of grace (even thinking of Donnie's kind comments about Seth and his wife).

(11-25-2020, 10:13 AM)HanspardsShowerVoice Wrote: [ -> ]Barnes .. a respected league veteran who found out he was traded in the middle of game. 


Simmons is someone who routinely talks to and interviews players, and employs several current and former players.  

Fans don't like to hear this stuff, because they love trading players .. particularly veteran players with big contracts like Barnes and Wes.    But this becomes a negative feedback loop.   Established players don't want to come to Dallas because they know they're just treated as trade fodder, and then Dallas has to use established players as trade fodder because it's their only avenue of acquiring difference making talent because they can't bring in free agents.  Last offseason our free agents amounted to resigning the guys already in the building like DFS and Maxi and bringing in Seth ... who already was in the Dallas fraternity .... this year our free agency was Trey Burke and WCS , who again, were already in the building and taking a vet min flier on a guy who might not make team.  Once again we hear about how we were the 2nd choice of all these players (which means they were using us for leverage).    It's not just the Superstars, but it's end of career guys like Millsap and Crowder and Marc Gasol.  At some point you have to admit it's a problem.

I'm not an NBA insider. And of course Simmons knows players. The Mavs make alot of trades, so it's not hard to believe that players might notice that.

But HSV, your explanation is part speculation and part fiction. And not just HSV, this post is regarding this whole discussion that developed after HSV's post

As somone already said, Barnes knew about a trade brewing and wanted to play anyway. The story of him being treated wrong was just a story, it was fiction, including showing film of him on the bench and speculating about what his facial expression meant. Barnes was treated like a franchise corner stone, like an heir apparent. And he was kept in the loop right up until he was traded (which he knew was happening). Go find what Barnes said, it was positive about the Mavs.

And no competent team in the league would have kept Wes and DAJ and let them expire when it was time to turn the team over. Those guys were treated like respected vets, the whole time they were here. 

The term "trade fodder" is disingeneous, because you can bring out that term any time you want to make "trading" into a negative. You can use another term when you're not trying to slant the conversation.

Regarding free agency, again, you're guessing in order to paint a picture. We struck out in free agency for a long time because we were a team in decline. This season we had price points we stuck to regarding more expensive players and had a specific plan that was actually executed. 

You cite signing our own guys as part of your evidence somehow, which is also disingenous. Are we known for keeping guys or getting rid of them? Which is it that you're arguing? Also, you dismiss a guy in Seth, who liked how the Mavs treated people. Your arguments are informed by your conclusion. A guy doesn't like the Mavs, he's evidence. A guy likes the Mavs, he's evidence. 

Look, I think Simmons has contacts, I think the Mavs are good at trades, and I'm sure there are players who don't like being traded. But all of that is different from the picture that you're trying to paint, and different from this run away train of speculation developed after your post. 

Teams make trades. It's part of the NBA. Some players might not like that. But no reason to embelish it to paint an inaccurate picture about the Mavs.

---

(11-25-2020, 11:04 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]The Mavs HAVE traded people more ruthlessly than many other teams. That’s for sure.

You gotta explain this to me, pal. I don't get it.

---

(11-25-2020, 11:27 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]How happy do you think Mathews and Jordan were about heading to New York? 

You could literally say this about almost any other player ever traded by any team, except for the ones' who requested a trade.

---

(11-25-2020, 11:27 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Since we know that players HATE being traded, it seems logical to assume that teams who trade more frequently than other teams might risk being viewed in a certain light by players.

This is the only thing I've seen in this whole discussion which argues that players have a negative perception of the Mavs that makes sense...

and I'll add, the way we treated the championship team was wrong.

---

(11-25-2020, 11:13 AM)cjeter24 Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-25-2020, 10:15 AM)swaggerbox Wrote: [ -> ]barnes

Fair point. Forgot about him. 

Honestly if anyone actually looks at Barnes and is upset about it... They dumb. Barnes sure wasn't upset a few months later when he got paid. Mavs did him a massive favor for trading him to a team that was going to resign him. They weren't. They weren't trading him to upgrade but to have $$.

Barnes is a horrible example. He was in the loop, knew a trade was brewing, and chose to play anyway.

(11-25-2020, 11:31 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]@"KillerLeft" I just didn't understand your statement "more ruthlessly than many other teams"....I just don't see that. My read over the last 20 years plus is that the Mavs are VERY mindful of their players as people and even when business needs to happen, tend to do it with a level of grace (even thinking of Donnie's kind comments about Seth and his wife).

Well, just like anything else in life, it’s probably all a matter of perspective. Dennis Smith Jr. and Harrison Barnes probably think they were not treated fairly here, regardless of what we think about how they were treated. I would be shocked if either of them doesn’t believe that “if they were given more of a chance” they could’ve made it work here. Now, I don’t agree with that, personally, but if I were one of them I am absolutely positive that is how I would see it.

So, it really is just a matter of who you are talking to.

My “more ruthless” comment was really just about how they’ve historically made more trades than some other teams. I agree that Donnie usually says nice things about them on their way out the door, but I doubt it really matters to the players, especially in the moment. Again, I don’t think it’s a big deal. 

What I think IS a big deal is WE, the community members needing to remember that whatever our personal axe to grind might be, there are reasons for all of these things pertaining to the fact that these are all PEOPLE.

Incidentally, i listened to another podcast yesterday in which Brian Demaris claimed to have knowledge that Seth Curry was “kind of a complainer” and “kept to himself in the locker room.”  This is another example of what I’m talking about. Every team has to deal with varying degrees of the “human being effect.” If this was a BIG distraction, I feel like we would’ve heard about it. Instead, it was just a throw away anecdote about player as he exits. Interesting, but not worth discussing here, really...just like the comments on Simmons’ podcast. 

For whatever reason, there appears to be a portion of the Mavericks fanbase so scared of being let down in free agency next summer that they’re constantly searching for reasons the team is stupid for even trying. That’s where this discussion comes from, people searching reasons it won’t work. Those arguments don’t interest me at all, because it’s so clear that it’s something they SHOULD try.

The negative perception talk (even from Simmons) has been around for for a long time and I remember a lot of it coming up after the championship run and all those failed plan powder years. I also recall subtle references to a racial component which is part of the reason I was worried about drafting Luka. There is just too much smoke for there not to be some element of truth to it. Some stuff that sticks out to me beyond the Barnes deal:

-How we handled Tyson Chandler (twice)
-Along those lines, not running it back (failed two in the bush strategy)
-The two biggest free agent signings in recent memory (DAJ and Curry) were traded almost immediately
-Moving on from Dennis Smith Jr at soon as you got Luka (again there have been hints of a racial component)
-We were involved in destroying Rondo's reputation
-Along the Rondo lines of failed acquisitions, Delon Wright and Darren Collinson. It will be interesting to see if Wright can turn it around.

A lot of those moves were probably the right basketball decision but perception isn't always reality. We don't draft very well and we've been bad in free agency for a decade now. We shine in trades but that probably makes people uneasy coming here which is also why we suck in free agency.

I think a lot of the guys that come here speak glowingly of their experience but I'm sure there is a camp that doesn't (DSJ, Rondo who does have a lot of friends and is influential).

(11-25-2020, 11:49 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Dennis Smith Jr. and Harrison Barnes probably think they were not treated fairly here

Dennis Smith asked for a trade, in fact, he stopped coming to games, because he wanted to run his own team.

I've already posted about Barnes above. He's a horrible example to keep bringing up.

(11-25-2020, 11:35 AM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]Barnes is a horrible example. He was in the loop, knew a trade was brewing, and chose to play anyway.

...and Dallas also traded him for pennies on the dollar to the team of his choice who re-signed him to a new $85mm contract. They did right by Barnes even as they moved in a different direction.

(11-25-2020, 11:49 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]My “more ruthless” comment was really just about how they’ve historically made more trades than some other teams.

I don't think "ruthless" is a good descriptive for "makes more trades"

---

(11-25-2020, 11:50 AM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]-How we handled Tyson Chandler (twice)
-Along those lines, not running it back (failed two in the bush strategy)
-The two biggest free agent signings (DAJ and Curry) were traded almost immediately
-Moving on from Dennis Smith Jr at soon as you got Luka (again there have been hints of a racial component)
-We were involved in destroying Rondo's reputation

I agree on Tyson and not running it back. 

Can't agree with the others.

(11-25-2020, 11:51 AM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-25-2020, 11:49 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Dennis Smith Jr. and Harrison Barnes probably think they were not treated fairly here

Dennis Smith asked for a trade, in fact, he stopped coming to games, because he wanted to run his own team.

I've already posted about Barnes above. He's a horrible example to keep bringing up.

Yeah, you’ve completely, totally missed my point. The retorts you made to my points in the last post WERE my points. 

I’ll try again. Here’s my thesis: There are players who feel that they were treated well and others who feel that they were treated not very well by every team in the NBA. It’s pretty reasonable to assert that a team who makes more trades than half of the other teams, like the Mavericks, might have more people in the league perceiving them as ruthless. I do not believe this is a problem, really, but to argue against it COMPLETELY, as if the answer to ANYTHING in life is BINARY, is pretty sophomoric. It’s beneath us, or at least should be.

---

Literally, the fact there are two groups of people here on a Mavs message board with two, opposing views of this topic is proof that there are probably some players around the league who don’t like the Mavericks or how they treat players. 

You can probably say that about any team. It’s not wrong, and I don’t need to prove that it’s wrong, but I don’t think it’s a big deal, either.

(11-25-2020, 11:13 AM)cjeter24 Wrote: [ -> ]Honestly if anyone actually looks at Barnes and is upset about it... They dumb.

Doesn't matter if they're dumb or not, this is about the perception, not necessarily the reality.

(11-25-2020, 11:56 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, you’ve completely, totally missed my point. The retorts you made to my points in the last post WERE my points. 

I’ll try again. Here’s my thesis: There are players who feel that they were treated well and others who feel that they were treated not very well by every team in the NBA. It’s pretty reasonable to assert that a team who makes more trades than half of the other teams, like the Mavericks, might have more people in the league perceiving them as ruthless. I do not believe this is a problem, really, but to argue against it COMPLETELY, as if the answer to ANYTHING in life is BINARY, is pretty sophomoric. It’s beneath us, or at least should be.

Well, I'm not being binary, pal. 

I've pointed out legit reasons for negative perception, and I've pushed back on reasons people are citing that aren't good examples. 

We're on the same page regarding the conclusion. And I like your discussion about the benefits of continuity for players (who are real people with families) and teams. 

I can push back on examples and language that push the narrative too far, in my opinion, without arguing for a binary, especially when in my arguments I'm citing actual reasons for negative perception.

---

(11-25-2020, 11:56 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Literally, the fact there are two groups of people here on a Mavs message board with two, opposing views of this topic is proof that there are probably some players around the league who don’t like the Mavericks or how they treat players. 

You can probably say that about any team. It’s not wrong, and I don’t need to prove that it’s wrong, but I don’t think it’s a big deal, either.

I haven't argued that there is no negative perception, so you got the wrong guy. I've just pushed back on bad examples.

---

@"KillerLeft", we got pulled into this argument from different directions, and were arguing for different reasons. I agree with your conclusion.

(11-25-2020, 11:50 AM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]The negative perception talk (even from Simmons) has been around for for a long time and I remember a lot of it coming up after the championship run and all those failed plan powder years. I also recall subtle references to a racial component which is part of the reason I was worried about drafting Luka. There is just too much smoke for there not to be some element of truth to it. Some stuff that sticks out to me beyond the Barnes deal:

-How we handled Tyson Chandler (twice)
-Along those lines, not running it back (failed two in the bush strategy)
-The two biggest free agent signings in recent memory (DAJ and Curry) were traded almost immediately
-Moving on from Dennis Smith Jr at soon as you got Luka (again there have been hints of a racial component)
-We were involved in destroying Rondo's reputation
-Along the Rondo lines of failed acquisitions, Delon Wright and Darren Collinson. It will be interesting to see if Wright can turn it around.

A lot of those moves were probably the right basketball decision but perception isn't always reality. We don't draft very well and we've been bad in free agency for a decade now. We shine in trades but that probably makes people uneasy coming here which is also why we suck in free agency.

I think a lot of the guys that come here speak glowingly of their experience but I'm sure there is a camp that doesn't (DSJ, Rondo who does have a lot of friends and is influential).

If there is any racial component involved in the recent politics of the team, it's not the Mavs against African-American players, but the reverse. Wes, VAJ, Barnes, and DSJ showed various levels of butthurt, not over how RC was using Luka, which was beyond reproach, but over who Luka was. They couldn't see what every other human being on the planet who knew basketball from their ass or a hole in the ground could see - that this kid was special, and that it wasn't a matter of giving him any sort of special treatment due to the color of his skin, but because he was one of the very best players in the world. While I am sure there was some trouble over this due to Luka's being a rookie as well as race, it's pretty evident that Luka's basketball worth is about at least double what those four guys bring put together. They behaved like complete dickheads (with the partial exception of DSJ, who at least had a friendly off-court rapport with Luka) the first part of the 2018-19 season. Each deserved his trading fate.

You guys/gals need to stop thinking in terms of right or wrong. That's not how perception works. We've heard these whispers for a decade at least. If the perception of the organization is founded or unfounded league wide really doesn't matter. Changing that perception is a long row to hoe.

And that's not to say the every move we've made is bad. Just look at Wes. We gave him a big contract post injury, allowed him to back out when DAJ jerked us around, and then gave him more money for recommitting.

Mavs make a LOT of trades
Mavs did not do right by the '11 team
Anything else that feeds into this PERCEPTION of Dallas as a negative destination among players is not a bad example, no matter how much we disagree with it logically:

No matter how much we know about the Barnes trade, it got blasted on SportsCenter and there are more players who build their perception based on that presentation of the game rather than asking: Barnes what happened and how did you feel?
DSJ could feel like he got screwed by being sent to NY (after the fact) and is salty toward Rick/MBT
Matthews, DAJ (personal feelings of justification aside), and Barnes are among the majority of FA signings by Dallas who did not finish their contracts here.

This helps explain part of the issues Dallas has among Free Agent players who consistently pick other teams instead of Dallas.

(11-25-2020, 11:51 AM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-25-2020, 11:49 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Dennis Smith Jr. and Harrison Barnes probably think they were not treated fairly here

Dennis Smith asked for a trade, in fact, he stopped coming to games, because he wanted to run his own team.

I've already posted about Barnes above. He's a horrible example to keep bringing up.

 Didn't Lebron James made an Instagram post a out Barnes trade and how ruthless are teams? 


https://www.businessinsider.com/lebron-j...ram-2019-2


Again, this is a about perception,  not facts ir truth kr right or wrong.

Barnes trade gave Mavs a very bad PR.

(11-25-2020, 12:23 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]You guys/gals need to stop thinking in terms of right or wrong.  That's not how perception works.  We've heard these whispers for a decade at least.  If the perception of the organization is founded or unfounded league wide really doesn't matter.  Changing that perception is a long row to hoe.

And that's not to say the every move we've made is bad. Just look at Wes.  We gave him a big contract post injury, allowed him to back out when DAJ jerked us around, and then gave him more money for recommitting.

I agree with you that a discussion about league perception isn't a discussion about right and wrong. But there can also be a discussion about whether the examples thrown out are legit. We don't even know if some of these examples are reasons for whatever perception is out there. We're just guessing. Tell me Barnes or DSJ is a reason for folks to have a negative perception the Mavs (which is just a guess) and I'm going to tell you why I think those are bad examples.