I'll say this: IF the Mavs DO like Oladipo and view him as a potential target in 2021, I think they should trade for him. Much like we saw it work out with KP, getting him in here to experience the organization for a year will likely work in their favor.
IF he's the guy they want, that's worth giving something up.
(10-03-2020, 02:43 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I think there's a decent chance that Hardaway Jr is actually a better player than Oladipo next season.
100% this. You know I am not high on THJ for a couple reasons....BUT I would rather roll the dice on THJ than Dipo. I especially do not want to give up assets to take a big risk.
The perception of fans that their team's players (who they watch consistently enough to be frustrated with) aren't as good as other teams' players (who they don't watch very often at all, but have heard of and seen highlights of) is a predictable phenomenon, and universal among all fan bases.
Not that these guys are the end-all-be-all of sports knowledge, but if the Mavs were to make a deal replacing THJ for Oladipo, get ready for most of the national guys who understand the NBA (Simmons, Russillo, Lowe, Duncan, etc) to HATE it. Nationally, very few people have had anything good to say about Oladipo lately. He's viewed as a problem for Indiana, and not because they think he's leaving, but because they don't think he's a very good player. This is a guy living in fans' heads on reputation.
Having said that, there IS a possibility that he gets over his injuries and starts getting better again, resuming the upward path he appeared to be on a couple of seasons ago. But in that case, can't the Mavs simply bid on him in FA? For me, there's just too much risk involved in this one, and not enough reward. I'd like to see him spend some time NOT being one of the worst players in the Pacers' rotation before I give something up for him, personally.
(10-03-2020, 02:46 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ] (10-03-2020, 02:39 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]Pre-injury he was a back-to-back all-star.
Technically yes.
BUT the year of his injury (before it happened) he shot only 42% and had a PER of 17.6. Year before was 48% and PER of 23.1.
IMO he has had exactly ONE year in his WHOLE career worth giving up a lot of assets for. ONE.
Preach. While I don't love the idea either, I'd rather take a run at Buddy.
And if we do take a run at Dipo, I'd rather send Curry out than Maxi. I don't view Maxi as untouchable or anything but his size and versatility are already severely lacking on this team.
After watching Denver in the Playoffs, I'm firmly on the recruit Paul Millsap train (again).
Right now, there are fans of every team in the NBA (some fan bases more than others) looking at THJ's 40% on 500+ 3pt attempts, seeing that the Mavs set a record for offensive efficiency and reaching the conclusion that their team NEEDS THJ. Just saying.
(10-03-2020, 03:03 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]Preach. While I don't love the idea either, I'd rather take a run at Buddy.
I don't think the Mavs will view Hield as superior to what they hope their options will be in the near future, but if the choices are limited to either him or Oladipo, I take Hield and never look back. Agreed.
(10-03-2020, 03:03 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Right now, there are fans of every team in the NBA (some fan bases more than others) looking at THJ's 40% on 500+ 3pt attempts, seeing that the Mavs set a record for offensive efficiency and reaching the conclusion that their team NEEDS THJ. Just saying.
I'm more curious what THj and his agent are thinking.
He's great in that 3rd banana role and can supplement as a 2nd banana from time to time, but when he needs to do too much is when you start regretting his contract. Most smart fans and front offices know this. I just wonder if he does.
(10-03-2020, 03:07 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]He's great in that 3rd banana role and can supplement as a 2nd banana from time to time, but when he needs to do too much is when you start regretting his contract. Most smart fans and front offices know this. I just wonder if he does.
Yeah, that's a good question.
I think there's pretty ample evidence that he (and his father) understand how fortunate he is to be in this situation with a good organization next to a superstar who takes all the pressure off.
This is why, despite Kamm making a decent point bringing up the possibility of his shooting effectiveness being an outlier, I don't worry about that, so much. I see a player in the process of adapting to a new role, taking a back seat in the offense for literally the first time in his life, and beginning to flourish in that role.
I don't think there's any way his father, who was the real deal as an NBA star, could possibly allow his son to have any illusions about ever again getting chance to be an All Star type. If I'm THS, I'm trying to advise THJ in a way that gives him the best chance to maintain a career in the league. The next contracts will be smaller, but there COULD be 2-3 more of them. The door isn't closed on that path yet.
To do that, he has to be a threat on the catch (BIG check there) and keep working to become a plus on the defensive side of the ball (that's the risk with him, but I can see it).
(10-03-2020, 03:07 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]He's great in that 3rd banana role
I disagree. He is great as a spot up shooter and floor spacer. That should be the EXTENT of his role and he should try to excel at it like he did this year. He is not a 3rd banana IMO.
(10-03-2020, 03:14 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ] (10-03-2020, 03:07 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]He's great in that 3rd banana role and can supplement as a 2nd banana from time to time, but when he needs to do too much is when you start regretting his contract. Most smart fans and front offices know this. I just wonder if he does.
Yeah, that's a good question.
I think there's pretty ample evidence that he (and his father) understand how fortunate he is to be in this situation with a good organization next to a superstar who takes all the pressure off.
This is why, despite Kamm making a decent point bringing up the possibility of his shooting effectiveness being an outlier, I don't worry about that, so much. I see a player in the process of adapting to a new role, taking a back seat in the offense for literally the first time in his life, and beginning to flourish in that role.
I don't think there's any way his father, who was the real deal as an NBA star, could possibly allow his son to have any illusions about ever again getting chance to be an All Star type. If I'm THS, I'm trying to advise THJ in a way that gives him the best chance to maintain a career in the league. The next contracts will be smaller, but there COULD be 2-3 more of them. The door isn't closed on that path yet.
To do that, he has to be a threat on the catch (BIG check there) and keep working to become a plus on the defensive side of the ball (that's the risk with him, but I can see it).
I agree that THJ is in the perfect spot. I'm also confident that he and his father understand this, but you are also talking about generational wealth with these contracts so that complicates matters and it's hard to criticize someone for taking a huge contract if offered even if the fit is a mismatch.
(10-03-2020, 03:19 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ] (10-03-2020, 03:07 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]He's great in that 3rd banana role
I disagree. He is great as a spot up shooter and floor spacer. That should be the EXTENT of his role and he should try to excel at it like he did this year. He is not a 3rd banana IMO.
We probably just disagree with what a 3rd banana is. Not everyone can be as loaded as the Heatles or GSW.
I said this a few days ago, but within the context of today's conversation I think it warrants repeating:
Put yourself in Oladipo's shoes. Before his injury, he was a back-to-back All Star, as has been pointed out. He didn't get there by playing off of someone like Luka, he accomplished this by having the ball in his hands. Now, a player like that who starts to become less effective organically might grow in maturity to the point where they're ready to face the hard truth and go to a new team with the intention of fitting into something already in progress for the purpose of winning. But in his case, I bet he believes this is happening to him because of bad luck.
If you're Dipo, are you really excited about moving to Dallas to live out the rest of your career in the shadow of some 21 year old, or are you trying find a place where you'll be given the chance to play yourself back into the All Star you believe you can be? This, to me, is the exact opposite of what I think I see in THJ that I like.
The Mavs DO need another guy (or more than one) who CAN do things with the ball. I've said that over and over. But, I think that IF those guys are GUARDS, they'll need to be able to look themselves in the mirror and realize that they're here to help Luka, not to replace him. I don't know that Oladipo is that dude yet. (I admit, this is speculative) A guy like Hield is thinking "f-yeah! That white boy is going to get me more shots!"
The "problem" with Buddy, or why I'd worry, is that side of the razor's edge does his relationship with Carlisle fall on.
(10-03-2020, 03:19 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]We probably just disagree with what a 3rd banana is.
Most likely.
I define "3rd banana" as someone you can run your offense through. I don't think you ever want that for THJ, he should always be a support, a shooter, a floor spacer for the 1-3 bananas.
I think Buddy Hield COULD be that (and it is why I am open to swapping Buddy and THJ) because I think Buddy can be a Reggie Miller kind of guy where I do NOT think THJ can do that.
You are seriously downplaying Oladipo. While he is not the best first banana, he can be an excellent third banana and certainly much better third banana than THJ. While THJ had a good season offensively, he is not what we need defensively. Dipo can be. The only question with Dipo is if he can stay healthy. Getting him now certainly improves possibility to keep him in 2021.
(10-03-2020, 03:19 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]I agree that THJ is in the perfect spot. I'm also confident that he and his father understand this, but you are also talking about generational wealth with these contracts so that complicates matters and it's hard to criticize someone for taking a huge contract if offered even if the fit is a mismatch.
Oh, sorry. I didn't realize your comment was so financially focused. YES, I absolutely agree that should another team choose to make THJ an offer that represents a bigger role, he'll have to take it. I don't think that will happen, however. I think ATL and NYK were his chances to be that guy.
It's also possible that another team will view him the same way the Mavs do and simply want him a little more. I'm not worried about that, either, as I don't necessarily view retaining THJ long term as the Mavs' end goal here. I think it's a possibility, but not required to convince me that having him around next season is the right move.
(10-03-2020, 03:34 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ] (10-03-2020, 03:19 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]We probably just disagree with what a 3rd banana is.
Most likely.
I define "3rd banana" as someone you can run your offense through. I don't think you ever want that for THJ, he should always be a support, a shooter, a floor spacer for the 1-3 bananas.
I think Buddy Hield COULD be that (and it is why I am open to swapping Buddy and THJ) because I think Buddy can be a Reggie Miller kind of guy where I do NOT think THJ can do that.
I'd do the swap just so we never have to play against Buddy again. And then regret it 10 games into the season when he's in Carlisle's dog house.
(10-03-2020, 03:36 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]when he's in Carlisle's dog house.
That's the risk, but a smaller risk than Dipo IMO.
(10-03-2020, 03:34 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]not what we need defensively. Dipo can be.
We do NOT need to pay that much for a defender who CANNOT space the floor. You can get those a lot cheaper.
(10-03-2020, 03:34 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]I define "3rd banana" as someone you can run your offense through. I don't think you ever want that for THJ, he should always be a support, a shooter, a floor spacer for the 1-3 bananas.
I think Buddy Hield COULD be that (and it is why I am open to swapping Buddy and THJ) because I think Buddy can be a Reggie Miller kind of guy where I do NOT think THJ can do that.
So much this. The next (big splash) guy the Mavs add MUST be a dude who can initiate offense, especially if the second dude is Porzingis.
To be fair, Oladipo is probably better than THJ in this area, if you think you'll ever see the good version of him again. I just think there will be better options available in the near to medium future. Options that aren't so risky.
(10-03-2020, 03:37 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]That's the risk, but a smaller risk than Dipo IMO.
Hield marginally improves our offense, brings nothing on defense and basically kills a lot of our flexibility moving forward. All before we come to the potential personality issues. So how can you consider this as lower risk compared to Oladipo?
(10-03-2020, 03:34 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]You are seriously downplaying Oladipo. While he is not the best first banana, he can be an excellent third banana and certainly much better third banana than THJ. While THJ had a good season offensively, he is not what we need defensively. Dipo can be. The only question with Dipo is if he can stay healthy. Getting him now certainly improves possibility to keep him in 2021.
I guess Dipo just has too many red flags for me to want to invest in (one great season, one serious injury and he seems to need to be ball dominant). I also don't see THJ as the future either so this isn't a THJ vs Dipo situation. I think he's been a great Maverick and has at the very least exceeded everyone's expectations of what were getting with him being part of the tax for KP. You have to give him, Carlisle, his dad and his teammates a lot of credit for what he's done in Dallas. That said, I'd never offer him a contract for the money he's making now. I'd be comfortable with him a the 10-12M per year range but that's probably too much of a haircut for him. I'm fine if he walks and will wish him the best. I've definitely become of fan of his.
(10-03-2020, 03:40 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]So how can you consider this as lower risk compared to Oladipo?
I am saying based on what assets I think you have to give to get them.
I think Dipo empties the cupboard and then likely loses his own "asset" value.
I think Buddy is at least an asset as a PROVEN NBA floor spacer and high volume three point shooter. And you have to give up less to get him more than likely.