MavsBoard

Ibaka is only 30? Seems like he's been in the league forever. He'd be a decent backup big man. I don't think that makes Maxi redundant. Serge is a better rim protector but Maxi is a much better on ball defender which gives him versatility.

(09-12-2020, 09:30 AM)DanSchwartzman Wrote: [ -> ]Ibaka is a center.  He's a much better interior defender than on the perimeter.  You can certainly play him next to KP on offense, but that combo will get pick and rolled to death on D.  Ibaka was a bench player this season unless Gasol was unavailable. 

---

Gasol and Ibaka played together a total of 89 minutes all season in 19/20.  It was only 31 minutes together in 18/19.

This is the part that people don't get.  ^^^

When it comes to running the floor, switching, defending perimeter players, etc, Kleber is  way, way better than Ibaka. I'm not saying Ibaka doesn't help you, because he IS a player I believe the Mavs could use effectively. But, the minutes he'd get, when everyone is healthy, would be all of Boban's, and maybe a few from KP, Powell and Kleber. He'd very rarely (if ever) be on the court WITH KP.

Basically, he and Kleber would be your backup bigs, and you'd never see WCS or Boban again. Are you better? Yeah, probably, but is that worth the entire MLE???

---

This is all good fun, and none of us have inside info, but the one thing I'm willing to seriously bet my life on in this topic is that the Dallas Mavericks will not, under any circumstances, be employing Demar DeRozan. You cannot win in this league today with guys at that position who can't or won't shoot.

(09-12-2020, 01:42 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-12-2020, 01:36 PM)Omega_Supreme Wrote: [ -> ]I don't see us winning it all with Luka having such a high usage rate.

MJ led the NBA in usage rate in FIVE of the six seasons they won the title, averaging around 33 in usage over those six title seasons. MJ had a playoff usage rate between 35.5 and 38.0 for FOUR of the six title runs. 

Luka had a usage of 36.8 this season and 37.5 in the playoffs. If anything Luka maybe needs a slight down tick in usage in the regular season to save his body, but his high usage rate is what will cause the Mavs to have success. You don't take the ball away from someone with such elite efficiency.

Not arguing here, but what are the usage for recent championships stars? Lebron? Curry? Kawhi? KD?  
I am genuinely curious 

Also, can Luka keep healthy uncle and improve defense with such work load on offense?

(09-12-2020, 02:33 PM)khaled1987 Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-12-2020, 01:42 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-12-2020, 01:36 PM)Omega_Supreme Wrote: [ -> ]I don't see us winning it all with Luka having such a high usage rate.

MJ led the NBA in usage rate in FIVE of the six seasons they won the title, averaging around 33 in usage over those six title seasons. MJ had a playoff usage rate between 35.5 and 38.0 for FOUR of the six title runs. 

Luka had a usage of 36.8 this season and 37.5 in the playoffs. If anything Luka maybe needs a slight down tick in usage in the regular season to save his body, but his high usage rate is what will cause the Mavs to have success. You don't take the ball away from someone with such elite efficiency.

Not arguing here, but what are the usage for recent championships stars? Lebron? Curry? Kawhi? KD?  
I am genuinely curious 

Also, can Luka keep healthy uncle and improve defense with such work load on offense?

Fantastic auto-correct.

Luka´s usage is too high. Let´s not forget, he got a huge mid-season break. Normally he´d have pulled a Harden and been completely exhausted by the start of the play-offs. DeRozan could certainly take a load off him. He´d also bring a similar game, in that he thrives in the lane/mid-range area and is a better play-maker than anybody on our current roster. We have a lot of dunking and 3pt shooting, but outside of Luka, maybe Seth/Brunson (who are always in danger of getting blocked due to their size), we have nobody that can operate in between.

(09-12-2020, 02:25 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-12-2020, 09:30 AM)DanSchwartzman Wrote: [ -> ]Ibaka is a center.  He's a much better interior defender than on the perimeter.  You can certainly play him next to KP on offense, but that combo will get pick and rolled to death on D.  Ibaka was a bench player this season unless Gasol was unavailable. 

---

Gasol and Ibaka played together a total of 89 minutes all season in 19/20.  It was only 31 minutes together in 18/19.

This is the part that people don't get.  ^^^

When it comes to running the floor, switching, defending perimeter players, etc, Kleber is  way, way better than Ibaka. I'm not saying Ibaka doesn't help you, because he IS a player I believe the Mavs could use effectively. But, the minutes he'd get, when everyone is healthy, would be all of Boban's, and maybe a few from KP, Powell and Kleber. He'd very rarely (if ever) be on the court WITH KP.

Basically, he and Kleber would be your backup bigs, and you'd never see WCS or Boban again. Are you better? Yeah, probably, but is that worth the entire MLE???

Ibaka spent most of his career as a PF. Just because he plays more center for the Raptors doesn't mean he can't play PF. In Rick's offense he likes a stretch 4 (and these days I guess so does everybody?). Ibaka has position flex like Maxi, he can play PF or center. He also has more offensive tools than Maxi does. I think you saw some success in the playoffs with Maxi playing next to KP in the starting lineup. I have argued all year that the reason Rick doesn't usually play them together is that he likes Maxi playing the KP "role" off the bench.

If Ibaka came here it would be as the starter next to KP, filling the same role Maxi did in the playoffs but they are switchable depending on the matchup. As Dan mentioned, Maxi can guard better on the perimeter so you still have the option to start him in some matchups.

I also like Jae Crowder (yet another 30 yr old) in that role if you want to go with more of a pure PF. If the Mavs signed Crowder back to fill that PF spot I would also be good with that idea. Crowder is also a guy the Heat aren't going to sign for more than 1 year as they want to clear 2021 cap space.

(09-12-2020, 02:33 PM)khaled1987 Wrote: [ -> ]Lebron? Curry? Kawhi? KD?

Lebron has been over 33.0 usage 6 times in the playoffs and is usually around 31.0 in the regular season.

Steph is averaging about 31.0 usage the last five years and little over 30 for the playoffs.

Kawhi is averaging about 31.0 usage the last four years and was 32.0 for the title run last year.

KD has averaged 30 in both regular season and playoffs.

Hmmmm

https://twitter.com/TheNBACentral/status...46595?s=20

(09-12-2020, 02:25 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-12-2020, 09:30 AM)DanSchwartzman Wrote: [ -> ]Ibaka is a center.  He's a much better interior defender than on the perimeter.  You can certainly play him next to KP on offense, but that combo will get pick and rolled to death on D.  Ibaka was a bench player this season unless Gasol was unavailable. 

---

Gasol and Ibaka played together a total of 89 minutes all season in 19/20.  It was only 31 minutes together in 18/19.

This is the part that people don't get.  ^^^

When it comes to running the floor, switching, defending perimeter players, etc, Kleber is  way, way better than Ibaka. I'm not saying Ibaka doesn't help you, because he IS a player I believe the Mavs could use effectively. But, the minutes he'd get, when everyone is healthy, would be all of Boban's, and maybe a few from KP, Powell and Kleber. He'd very rarely (if ever) be on the court WITH KP.

Basically, he and Kleber would be your backup bigs, and you'd never see WCS or Boban again. Are you better? Yeah, probably, but is that worth the entire MLE???

---

 

Here are the uses I see if Ibaka is the way we use the MLE:

1.  Great interior D 100% of the time whether it is KP at C or Ibaka at C.

2.  An accomplished starting center for the games KP sits or is injured.

3.  Improved bench rebounding.

4.  Lineup versatility against Zubac and Jokic.

I think #2 is the greatest value.  Losing KP for stretches of the season (or playoffs) is season-altering.  Too much risk to leave unaddressed.  

In #4, I'm not saying you would start Ibaka against LAC or DEN, but you might rotate differently to take some of the big body pressure off of KP.  If we had a really good guard who was a candidate to start (better than Curry or Brunson), then you could start Maxi with KP, Luka, DFS and THJ against teams with bigger lineups (like we did in the playoffs) and that guard in Maxi's place against teams that skew smaller.

(09-12-2020, 02:43 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]Ibaka spent most of his career as a PF. Just because he plays more center for the Raptors doesn't mean he can't play PF. In Rick's offense he likes a stretch 4 (and these days I guess so does everybody?). Ibaka has position flex like Maxi, he can play PF or center. He also has more offensive tools than Maxi does. I think you saw some success in the playoffs with Maxi playing next to KP in the starting lineup. I have argued all year that the reason Rick doesn't usually play them together is that he likes Maxi playing the KP "role" off the bench.

If Ibaka came here it would be as the starter next to KP, filling the same role Maxi did in the playoffs but they are switchable depending on the matchup. As Dan mentioned, Maxi can guard better on the perimeter so you still have the option to start him in some matchups.

I also like Jae Crowder (yet another 30 yr old) in that role if you want to go with more of a pure PF. If the Mavs signed Crowder back to fill that PF spot I would also be good with that idea. Crowder is also a guy the Heat aren't going to sign for more than 1 year as they want to clear 2021 cap space.

Yes, Ibaka played PF in the old NBA, as a much younger player. Yes, he CAN play there. No, he wouldn't be GOOD there today, as a much older player in a game that's played significantly differently, and no, the Mavericks 100% would not view him as interchangeable with how Kleber was used in this season's playoffs. If you think differently, then you haven't watched Ibaka enough over the past 5 years. He absolutely could not have done what they just asked Kleber to do against the Clippers.

He can play the 4 (which really doesn't exist anymore, so we should just say wing) fine on offense, but as Dan rightly stated, the combination of KP/Ibaka together on defense, against the 95% of NBA teams who run a constant barrage of spread pick and rolls, would be disaster. 

In 2021, Ibaka is a center.

---

(09-12-2020, 02:58 PM)DanSchwartzman Wrote: [ -> ]Here are the uses I see if Ibaka is the way we use the MLE:

1.  Great interior D 100% of the time whether it is KP at C or Ibaka at C.

2.  An accomplished starting center for the games KP sits or is injured.

3.  Improved bench rebounding.

4.  Lineup versatility against Zubac and Jokic.

I think #2 is the greatest value.  Losing KP for stretches of the season (or playoffs) is season-altering.  Too much risk to leave unaddressed.  

In #4, I'm not saying you would start Ibaka against LAC or DEN, but you might rotate differently to take some of the big body pressure off of KP.  If we had a really good guard who was a candidate to start (better than Curry or Brunson), then you could start Maxi with KP, Luka, DFS and THJ against teams with bigger lineups (like we did in the playoffs) and that guard in Maxi's place against teams that skew smaller.

Yeah, so I agree with every word of this. And, if this is the best you can do, you do it, because it does move the team in the right direction. 

But, this is not one of the "two new starters" everyone has been screaming for here. That's all I'm saying. I think many of the same people wanting to get this guy are going to turn around and blame Carlisle for not playing him, not realizing that not even IBAKA himself thinks he can start next to KP. My issue is that people's expectations need to be in line with reality.

---

(09-12-2020, 02:43 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]I also like Jae Crowder (yet another 30 yr old) in that role if you want to go with more of a pure PF. If the Mavs signed Crowder back to fill that PF spot I would also be good with that idea. Crowder is also a guy the Heat aren't going to sign for more than 1 year as they want to clear 2021 cap space.

I like this, personally, though I'd hate to overpay. But, THIS is a 4 in 2020. I wish he were taller and longer, for sure, but the minimum requirement is to be able to move like Crowder does. 

Ideally, you want a guy who moves like Crowder, plays tough like Crowder, isn't afraid to shoot in big moments like Crowder, but who is 6'8-6-'9" with a 7' wingspan. Middleton (who you're not getting, obvs) is the prototypical dude who pops into my head.

(09-12-2020, 02:47 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-12-2020, 02:33 PM)khaled1987 Wrote: [ -> ]Lebron? Curry? Kawhi? KD?

Lebron has been over 33.0 usage 6 times in the playoffs and is usually around 31.0 in the regular season.

Steph is averaging about 31.0 usage the last five years and little over 30 for the playoffs.

Kawhi is averaging about 31.0 usage the last four years and was 32.0 for the title run last year.

KD has averaged 30 in both regular season and playoffs.

Hmmm, with those numbers I think it is fair to expect Luka to take a usage cut in the future. Different era and he doesn't have the body of MJ or Lebron. Would expect something closer to Curry IMO. 

This is a bit off point, and I might be living in the past, but Luka build his FIBA legacy as 2nd ball handler, behind guys like Dragic or Sergio Llull, Mavs wanted to have a PG beside him. Tried it with DSJ, Wright and attempt to do so with Kemba. I think it is something the Mavs wants but failed to do. Though that s a bit irrelevant to Demar argument

I don't think Carlisle WANTS Luka's usage to be so high, it's just that he didn't have any choice. 

On the roster, the only two alternatives were Barea and Brunson, both of whom were hurt for long stretches. I was actually pretty shocked that he didn't try to force Barea in more during the bubble, so I guess that means that dude really is about done. We know Carlisle is a fan. 

Brunson is actually promising as a backup, but he's not great at playing with Luka, so he's not an ideal fit, perhaps. You don't want to be locked into playing Luka off ball for 5 minutes at a time, either. The goal is to have options, so a player who can only play on ball is just as ill-fitting as one who can only play off. 

Curry and THJ are both worthless initiators. They're almost exclusively off ball players. Good ones, and both CAN handle and create for themselves, but they're not solutions as even secondary playmakers, really. 

Carlisle gave Wright 100 chances to play point guard this season. Way more than I would have. He failed every time. Many of those frustrating losses before the lockdown were due, in my opinion, to long stretches of the game where Wright was initiating and the offense just looked clueless. I think they REALLY wanted this to work out, not only because they needed a second playmaker, but also because they wanted Wright's defense to have a spot in the rotation. Sadly, it did not work out. 

All of this is to illustrate that Luka's insanely high usage is not by design. It was necessity. Like, the only way they could win. This is why Trey Burke got the playoff minutes he got (thank God for him!) This is why they targeted Kemba Walker, and that is why they'll target someone else like that this year. It's going to make everyone groan again, but it IS a need, and possibly the biggest one.

---

(09-12-2020, 03:12 PM)khaled1987 Wrote: [ -> ]This is a bit off point, and I might be living in the past, but Luka build his FIBA legacy as 2nd ball handler, behind guys like Dragic or Sergio Llull, Mavs wanted to have a PG beside him. Tried it with DSJ, Wright and attempt to do so with Kemba. I think it is something the Mavs wants but failed to do. Though that s a bit irrelevant to Demar argument

I think this is right on point. You said it much more succinctly than I did, so sorry I missed it. The only part of this that's "in the past" in my opinion is that I don't think we can go back to a world in which Luka isn't the PRIMARY ball handler. But yes, absolutely, they will want another one.

(09-12-2020, 03:24 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]All of this is to illustrate that Luka's insanely high usage is not by design.

I disagree. I think RC knows the more times you have the ball in Luka's hands, the more success you will have. 

I think next year Luka's usage will be about the same as this year. I will be shocked with any significant cut, especially in the playoffs.

(09-12-2020, 03:58 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-12-2020, 03:24 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]All of this is to illustrate that Luka's insanely high usage is not by design.

I disagree. I think RC knows the more times you have the ball in Luka's hands, the more success you will have. 

I think next year Luka's usage will be about the same as this year. I will be shocked with any significant cut, especially in the playoffs.

You might be right about the usage rate, Kamm, but you will never convince me that Carlisle doesn't want options.

I'm in no way saying that he doesn't realize Luka with the ball in his hands will always be the best option, and I'm not saying that they're looking at his usage rate right now going "well, that can't happen again." But my goodness, how could you watch that series without realizing that another player who can create is needed?

I already trust Luka to handle pressure like a vet - that's amazing. But, in some situations, the right play out of a double doesn't find a shooter. It's more like a Hockey assist. If the first pass finds a dude who doesn't know what to do with it, then the defense has effectively taken Luka's value away. Now, hopefully, the Mavs' offense isn't endeavoring to mimic Houston's to the point where everyone is literally standing around watching Harden, but I do think they're similar enough in system to show us what you get when only one player on the floor can make decisions with the ball. 

Again, we KNOW what they think about this, because A) they say it all the time. B) they went after Kemba Walker hard. C) They were so desperate for someone like that they played Trey Burke heavy minutes in the playoffs after scooping him off the street right before the bubble. I don't see how any of that is debatable.

I am not worried ab high usage. Rick does like two ball handlers and THJ counts even if he isn't a top tier playmaker he can do it enough to spell Luka on occasion. Brunson does great running the offense, usually when Luka is off the floor but they do play together some. Brunson helped close games some last year. Curry like THJ can do some playmaking and I would say does a better job. He plays some with or without Luka.

Burke played with and without Luka and I thought played great. When Luka was sitting Burke pushed the pace really well and created easy offense. When Luka and Burke played together Burke did well with catch and shoot and could also handle the ball some. I would love to see Burke back if possible. Mavs will have a lot of guards but Rick isn't afraid of too many guards. Luka, THJ, Curry, Brunson and Burke would be fine bc there's always injuries.

I think the Kemba pursuit was partly about another ball-handler but a big part of it was landing a 3rd star. If Kemba was a star wing I believe they would have pursued him just as aggressively. I think Jrue's versatility would be very valuable here as he can play either guard spot. I expect he will net a very good return for the Pels so I am not sure the Mavs have enough to get him.

Absent Jrue I don't think you have to break the bank to get another ball handler. The guards we have are good and if the Mavs could keep Burke he would add another dimension to the offense.

---

(09-12-2020, 02:59 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Ideally, you want a guy who moves like Crowder, plays tough like Crowder, isn't afraid to shoot in big moments like Crowder, but who is 6'8-6-'9" with a 7' wingspan. Middleton (who you're not getting, obvs) is the prototypical dude who pops into my head.

I have a feeling Crowder gets a big payday this year. Pat Bev last summer as a 31 yr old got 40 mil. Aminu as a 28 yr old got 30 mil. Danny Green got 30 mil over 2 years. I think full MLE is definitely in play for Crowder.

(09-12-2020, 05:53 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]I think the Kemba pursuit was partly about another ball-handler but a big part of it was landing a 3rd star. If Kemba was a star wing I believe they would have pursued him just as aggressively. 

---

I have a feeling Crowder gets a big payday this year. Pat Bev last summer as a 31 yr old got 40 mil. Aminu as a 28 yr old got 30 mil. Danny Green got 30 mil over 2 years. I think full MLE is definitely in play for Crowder.

Isn't part of what you're wanting with a "3rd Star" really just about getting another ball handler (at any position) who can make decisions with the ball that help your team? Point being, what you're saying is kind of my whole argument.

Also, I buy your thinking on Crowder's worth. Would you be interested in him at the full MLE? I think I'd be fine with it, but I can see the hate posts already.

(09-12-2020, 06:12 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Isn't part of what you're wanting with a "3rd Star" really just about getting another ball handler (at any position) who can make decisions with the ball that help your team? Point being, what you're saying is kind of my whole argument.

Also, I buy your thinking on Crowder's worth. Would you be interested in him at the full MLE? I think I'd be fine with it, but I can see the hate posts already.

Most stars can handle the ball and play-make so ya I am good with that if the Mavs can find a 3rd star. I was all about Kemba last year. I really wanted Brogdon as well (and would have preferred him over Kemba) but the MBT showed no interest. My issue with star hunting right now is that I don't really see someone available.

As for Crowder I am not sure. He plays a role that's very valuable. I would be good with full MLE depending on how many years I have to attach to it. His fit would be great in terms of skillset altho his 3% isn't great for how many he shoots a game.

(09-12-2020, 06:33 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]Most stars can handle the ball and play-make so ya I am good with that if the Mavs can find a 3rd star. I was all about Kemba last year. I really wanted Brogdon as well (and would have preferred him over Kemba) but the MBT showed no interest. My issue with star hunting right now is that I don't really see someone available.

As for Crowder I am not sure. He plays a role that's very valuable. I would be good with full MLE depending on how many years I have to attach to it. His fit would be great in terms of skillset altho his 3% isn't great for how many he shoots a game.

Yeah, that's the downside to Crowder, for sure. He's definitely a streaky shooter (looking better now because he's on a great streak in the playoffs) which can be frustrating when you watch him every night. Then again, so are half of the other guys we covet on this board. Smart, for example.

(09-12-2020, 03:58 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-12-2020, 03:24 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]All of this is to illustrate that Luka's insanely high usage is not by design.

I disagree. I think RC knows the more times you have the ball in Luka's hands, the more success you will have. 

I think next year Luka's usage will be about the same as this year. I will be shocked with any significant cut, especially in the playoffs.

Luka does not play the same minutes per game as MJ. MJ career average is around 38 minutes per game. In the playoffs that number was 40+. So essentially Jordan is seeing a the same usage rate as Luka with higher minutes per game. 

Luka is around 32 to 36 minutes per game. max in the playoffs. That is a huge difference. 

As others have said we have no one that can generate offense in the mid range outside of Luka. When I say generate offense I mean pass/score... He may be the easiest attainable piece that can offer that for us outside of overpaying for an old Chris Paul. Derozan is also very consistent and has only missed 5 games in the last 3 years.

I'm not sure the team composition is ready for Jae. He seems more like a guy you are happy to get on your team as a byproduct of a trade and then immediately unhappy with once you pay him.