MavsBoard

(10-27-2020, 09:17 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-27-2020, 09:14 PM)loki Wrote: [ -> ]That was my take as well, although it's definitely a massive long shot. Maybe they were hoping the cap/tax would drop far enough that the Sixers would be forced into a Simmons or Embiid salary dump.

It's just, Sixer didn't bring Rivers in because they want to rebuild or because tax is of a big concern to them. If they are trading a star, it will be for a star. My guess though, Embiid and Simmons stay another season unless something really great comes along.

Agreed. They want Simmons/Embiid to work, and that's why they spent top dollar on Rivers. I don't think it will, but if we were sixers fans we'd believe it with everything we had. I'm sure there are plenty of teams with those names circled, hoping, but I don't think the Mavs should be among them. Neither of them is something that's missing here, imo.

(10-27-2020, 08:52 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]In all honesty, I can see Harris re-uniting with Bobi as a personality fit to this team. He's pretty far overpaid, but what is the compensation for taking on such a large contract? I think it needs to be more than just Powell even though that is an awful looking contract right now, esp if we're giving them lots of needed 3pt scoring with Curry and Kleber (do they even want Powell AND Kleber from us with Horford still on their roster?). 

The Wright for Richardson swap is a good addition to bridge that gap, or maybe a couple of their unnecessary picks from this draft that help us move even further up in the draft? Get a 3rd team involved?.

Simmons is the cost or else any person in their right mind wouldn't be touching Harris. He wasn't that bad before covid, but now it's really really bad. Sucks for 76ers to unload him if they want to be competitive. that or Horford. 

Harris + Simmons 
for
Hardaway, Wright, Powell, Curry (or Kleber if they prefer) comes up about 4 mill short of matching. Oh hey look how much Dodo makes lol. I believe the deal works financially with Kleber substituted in place of anyone but Powell.

Philly may get a better offer for Simmons but they'll have a hard time finding someone to eat Harris deal plus provide assets. We'd be sending them 18 and 31. 

FWIW I think that deal makes a ton of sense for Philly
They run THJ at the 2 with Richardson at the 3. You fortify your bench and you have assets to go get a PG. 

Shoot you could expand it to OKC and have them getting Paul and that makes WAY too much sense. Have Paul, THJ and Kleber going to Philly with everyone else going to OKC with picks. And then all those massive contracts are off your books for 2022 free agency for Philly.

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Who says no to this 3 team OKC, Dallas, Philly Trade

Dallas receives: Harris, Simmons
Philly receives: Chris Paul, THJ, Kleber
OKC receives: Wright, Justin Jackson, Powell, Pick 18, 31 also pick 22 if needed from Philly

I think this all works financially.
OKC gets even more picks and continues rebuild with an expiring rookie deal, a movable contact in Wright and Powell who they probably get some value out of with a young team. 

Dallas has a starting lineup of:
Doncic, Curry, Harris, Simmons, KP

Philly has a starting lineup of
Paul, THJ, Richardson, Kleber, Embiid

(10-27-2020, 09:00 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]As for Harris. He is basically a picture perfect third "star". He efficiently scores 20 ppg, he is a good shooter (I bet his percentage would skyrocket from last season with Mavs spacing and Luka passing), he is an ok defender, he is very durable and he will certainly not come in claiming he is something more than a third "star". His contract runs through his prime, so that is also not bad. The only negative is, that he is overpaid by arround 10 mil per season. So if you don't believe perfect stars will be available, he seems like an option to consider.

Edit: IMHO, he is a far better fit than Gobert who would cost much more to trade for and who would demand similar money in 2021 free agency.

Edit 2: if Harris deal would be for Kleber/Curry/Powell (while also getting Thybulle and keeping our pick), we would still have around 15 mil to play with in 2021 free agency (115 mil cap assumption). Get rid of Wright and we are above 20 mil in cap space.

Ya, I think I am right there with you on this. He's a better Barnes, which is what we were saying when Harris was on the Clippers (well, some were trying to argue that Barnes was a better Harris, but anyway). The $10M overpaid comment is pretty much spot on, I had him at about $12-14M, but that's not a big difference. 

Is Thybulle enough compensation in your opinion? Not familiar with his game, I know he has some buzz around him on this board, but looking at his stats, he looks like basically what we have, only...younger (which, I know, comes with upside, but is it that much upside?). The picks route might be the better way around it than trying to get the Wright for Richardson swap, since they want better players and that swap would degrade them too much.

Still think Powell with Kleber is not something they would want with Horford and Embiid still on the team. That doesn't seem like a lot of minutes for our outgoing bigs (I guess they would be pretty good injury insurance). We could swap Wright for Powell I believe and the money works as well. Making it something like Kleber/Curry/Wright for Harris/Thybulle/(22? or some combo of seconds?)

(10-27-2020, 09:28 PM)cjeter24 Wrote: [ -> ]Who says no to this 3 team OKC, Dallas, Philly Trade

Philly, and it is not even close. They will not trade someone who is considered a top 10 to top 20 player for an aging star and a couple of role players.

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(10-27-2020, 09:43 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Is Thybulle enough compensation in your opinion? Not familiar with his game

He is an absolute monster defender, who is of course very raw offensively, but showed some hope as a corner three guy. Very likely to become a much better version of DFS. He didn't get more minutes, because Philly so lacked shooting. He would be the only bad shooter on Mavs, so that would work very differently.

(10-27-2020, 09:43 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Making it something like Kleber/Curry/Wright for Harris/Thybulle

Yeah, I am fine with that and it does make more sense for Philly. I think Jackson is needed to match the salaries, but who really cares about him. I sure would try to squeeze more assets from them, but they would not be a deal breaker for me.

(10-27-2020, 08:10 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]It's going to drive people here crazy if it happens, but close your eyes and imagine Donnie pacing around on the phone, trying to pry Hayward away from Ainge. 

That seems like such a Dallas move to me.

Never trade with Ainge.

(10-27-2020, 09:49 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-27-2020, 09:28 PM)cjeter24 Wrote: [ -> ]Who says no to this 3 team OKC, Dallas, Philly Trade

Philly, and it is not even close. They will not trade someone who is considered a top 10 to top 20 player for an aging star and a couple of role players.

Maybe not. But they'd be better since they could actually make moves.
If they don't use Embiid or Simmons to offload Harris at some point they'll have one of them walk in a few years anyways. 

I think it's more of the follow up moves they could make. 
Richardson, THJ, Kleber are all really good pieces that I think would have good positive value in trades. They have a few young pieces to trade and all their draft picks. They could easily flip what they currently have into another really nice piece. Maybe that's Jrue or Dipo or Buddy or whoever.

(10-27-2020, 09:17 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-27-2020, 09:14 PM)loki Wrote: [ -> ]That was my take as well, although it's definitely a massive long shot. Maybe they were hoping the cap/tax would drop far enough that the Sixers would be forced into a Simmons or Embiid salary dump.

It's just, Sixer didn't bring Rivers in because they want to rebuild or because tax is of a big concern to them. If they are trading a star, it will be for a star. My guess though, Embiid and Simmons stay another season unless something really great comes along.

I agree that the Rivers hiring signaled wanting to keep both Simmons and Embiid. However, if they aren't concerned about the tax now, that could easily change in the future. Imagine the tax level drops by $20M instead of staying flat as currently projected. With Philly already having $150M in salary committed, they would owe around $110M in tax next year. 

Then Dallas swoops in offering a bevy of role players (maybe Kleber, DFS, THJ, Wright) with some of the salary filler (like Jackson and Powell) being absorbed by other teams cap space or trade exceptions in exchange for cash/picks. You could drop their tax bill to $30M overnight and allow them to stay competitive with a roster that actually fits around Embiid.

Not saying Philly necessarily does that deal. Maybe they find a way to dump Horford or a handful of others to get enough breathing room, but every owner has his limits. I imagine even Cuban would have a hard time stomaching a tax bill that high.

Way too soon for Phlly to punt on Simmons without returning another star as you'd run the risk of losing Embiid after '22-23.

(10-27-2020, 09:49 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, I am fine with that and it does make more sense for Philly. I think Jackson is needed to match the salaries, but who really cares about him. I sure would try to squeeze more assets from them, but they would not be a deal breaker for me.

I agree with this. I think with a 3 for 2 trade and them having so many draft picks it would be a really easy sell to get 1 or 2 of their picks. If the first isn't in the equation, maybe a 31 for 22 swap is? Gets them out of the guaranteed money players that they won't want/need. We then have a pretty good case of getting into top 10 with 18 and 22 and we come out of this draft with a highly hopeful player to add to our depleted roster.

I think the Sixers are clueless to think that the coach was the problem for them and Doc is the answer. 

Simmons and Embiid clearly don't work. They liked to work in the same part of the floor. Neither is a good shooter except in close. That's not working ever.

Maybe the Wizards and 76ers can swap terrible contracts. Harris/Simmons for Wall/Beal.

(10-27-2020, 10:09 PM)cjeter24 Wrote: [ -> ]Simmons and Embiid clearly don't work. They liked to work in the same part of the floor. Neither is a good shooter except in close. That's not working ever.

While I can totally agree with that, it does not change a fact that Philly will trade Simmons for a star only. Think Booker, Beal level of guys, at least. They will certainly not use him to dump salary. If salary is a problem, they can ship Horford and a couple of picks to someone like Charlotte for nothing. Best solution for them - trade Horford, Richardson, Scott and assets for CP3.

(10-27-2020, 10:05 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]Way too soon for Phlly to punt on Simmons without returning another star as you'd run the risk of losing Embiid after '22-23.

I think he's at risk to ask for a trade by then. Philly is fundamentally broken IMO. Some early 20 first round picks with everything tied up into 4 guys isn't moving the needle. 

Horford and Harris' contracts are top 5 bad in the NBA. Nobody is going to touch them without something of major value. 

I guess someone like Dallas could say we'll take Harris for pick 20 and next years first unprotected. and then use those pieces to flip for an actual star? Or expand it in a 3 team deal?

(10-27-2020, 10:16 PM)cjeter24 Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-27-2020, 10:05 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]Way too soon for Phlly to punt on Simmons without returning another star as you'd run the risk of losing Embiid after '22-23.

I think he's at risk to ask for a trade by then. Philly is fundamentally broken IMO. Some early 20 first round picks with everything tied up into 4 guys isn't moving the needle. 

Horford and Harris' contracts are top 5 bad in the NBA. Nobody is going to touch them without something of major value. 

I guess someone like Dallas could say we'll take Harris for pick 20 and next years first unprotected. and then use those pieces to flip for an actual star? Or expand it in a 3 team deal?

Do we get to dump Powell and Wright in this deal and give up no assets (Lee S&T)?  Harris contract is ****ing insane.

I agree that Embiid and Simmons don't work together but I'm not sure which one I'd pick to build around. Normally I'd say Embiid but he's often hurt, inconsistent, out of shape and I worry about his attitude. Longevity wise Simmons seems like the smarter play but he needs to learn to pull the trigger. Remember that Jimmy Butler wanted the hell out of there. He has no patience for players who aren't dedicated. Still, they aren't going to trade either for pennies on the dollar or to dump bad contracts.

(10-27-2020, 10:16 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-27-2020, 10:09 PM)cjeter24 Wrote: [ -> ]Simmons and Embiid clearly don't work. They liked to work in the same part of the floor. Neither is a good shooter except in close. That's not working ever.

While I can totally agree with that, it does not change a fact that Philly will trade Simmons for a star only. Think Booker, Beal level of guys, at least. They will certainly not use him to dump salary. If salary is a problem, they can ship Horford and a couple of picks to someone like Charlotte for nothing. Best solution for them - trade Horford, Richardson, Scott and assets for CP3.

I don't see any teams wiling to eat Horford or Harris salary for just some mediocre picks. Maybe I'm wrong. But the cap crunch by staying flat, the individual cash crunch on teams, plus the uncertainty of the future. I would be absolutely shocked if anyone takes any sort of major salary dump this year. 

I certainly don't think the Thunder take on Horfords contract for late 1sts. 

I actually lean to the Mavs saying no more than anyone because of how much money they are taking on and the uncertainty of the future. That combined with being completely locked into their roster with no idea how it fits... It's incredibly risky. Simmons may flop with Luka as well. I trust Rick to figure it all out. I personally really like Simmons because of how dominant of a defender he can be. But the reality is that he's a completely liability offensively unless he has the ball in his hands. 

It's cool tho. I hope the Sixers do nothing and Doc gets fired again. It brings me nothing but joy to see him lose. The most overrated coach in the NBA.

(10-27-2020, 10:24 PM)cjeter24 Wrote: [ -> ]It's cool tho. I hope the Sixers do nothing and Doc gets fired again. It brings me nothing but joy to see him lose. The most overrated coach in the NBA.

Yes, please. And let this be a lesson to the MBT of how not to build your core.

(10-27-2020, 10:21 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-27-2020, 10:16 PM)cjeter24 Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-27-2020, 10:05 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]Way too soon for Phlly to punt on Simmons without returning another star as you'd run the risk of losing Embiid after '22-23.

I think he's at risk to ask for a trade by then. Philly is fundamentally broken IMO. Some early 20 first round picks with everything tied up into 4 guys isn't moving the needle. 

Horford and Harris' contracts are top 5 bad in the NBA. Nobody is going to touch them without something of major value. 

I guess someone like Dallas could say we'll take Harris for pick 20 and next years first unprotected. and then use those pieces to flip for an actual star? Or expand it in a 3 team deal?

Do we get to dump Powell and Wright in this deal and give up no assets (Lee S&T)?  Harris contract is ****ing insane.

I agree that Embiid and Simmons don't work together but I'm not sure which one I'd pick to build around.  Normally I'd say Embiid but he's often hurt, inconsistent, out of shape and I worry about his attitude.  Longevity wise Simmons seems like the smarter play but he needs to learn to pull the trigger.  Remember that Jimmy Butler wanted the hell out of there.  He has no patience for players who aren't dedicated.  Still, they aren't going to trade either for pennies on the dollar or to dump bad contracts.

Perhaps I have a completely different level of perception of Paul. But he was 2nd team all NBA and showed that he was the same point god he always was when he wasn't playing with another ball hog. Yeah he's 35. But you've seen quite a few great pgs like him be absolute studs well into their late 30s. We had one around here. It creates a short term window that makes the team better and allows them to have a clear cap when Embiid is set to enter free agency. 

To me the salary savings plus frankly getting the better player now is not pennies on the dollar. 
If you told me I had to pick between Paul/THJ and Simmons/Harris for playing next year I'm taking Paul/THJ. I think that's just a better duo for now. 

The weird thing about Embiid is that the teams that would probably have the assets to get him already have a stud center. And then it's the Celtics. And the Sixers won't trade him in division to the Celtics IMO.

(10-27-2020, 10:33 PM)cjeter24 Wrote: [ -> ]Perhaps I have a completely different level of perception of Paul. But he was 2nd team all NBA and showed that he was the same point god he always was when he wasn't playing with another ball hog. Yeah he's 35. But you've seen quite a few great pgs like him be absolute studs well into their late 30s. We had one around here. It creates a short term window that makes the team better and allows them to have a clear cap when Embiid is set to enter free agency. 

To me the salary savings plus frankly getting the better player now is not pennies on the dollar. 
If you told me I had to pick between Paul/THJ and Simmons/Harris for playing next year I'm taking Paul/THJ. I think that's just a better duo for now. 

The weird thing about Embiid is that the teams that would probably have the assets to get him already have a stud center. And then it's the Celtics. And the Sixers won't trade him in division to the Celtics IMO.

Paul just doesn't fit their time frame plus who knows if Paul and Rivers have beef or not. I'd like Paul to the Mavs if his contract was a year shorter and you'd probably have to give up too much to get him as I don't think OKC is going to give him away or take long term salary back.

(10-27-2020, 10:39 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-27-2020, 10:33 PM)cjeter24 Wrote: [ -> ]Perhaps I have a completely different level of perception of Paul. But he was 2nd team all NBA and showed that he was the same point god he always was when he wasn't playing with another ball hog. Yeah he's 35. But you've seen quite a few great pgs like him be absolute studs well into their late 30s. We had one around here. It creates a short term window that makes the team better and allows them to have a clear cap when Embiid is set to enter free agency. 

To me the salary savings plus frankly getting the better player now is not pennies on the dollar. 
If you told me I had to pick between Paul/THJ and Simmons/Harris for playing next year I'm taking Paul/THJ. I think that's just a better duo for now. 

The weird thing about Embiid is that the teams that would probably have the assets to get him already have a stud center. And then it's the Celtics. And the Sixers won't trade him in division to the Celtics IMO.

Paul just doesn't fit their time frame plus who knows if Paul and Rivers have beef or not.  I'd like Paul to the Mavs if his contract wasn't a year shorter and you'd probably have to give up too much to get him as I don't think OKC is going to give him away or take long term salary back.

I think their time frame is win or be close to it in the next 3 years before Embiid walks. It's been several years now. They are quickly running out of time IMO. Because than after that age starts to creep up on you. And while that's less important in basketball. I don't feel good about a rebuild in 3 years time with near 30 stars that depend on athleticism as the main part of their game.