MavsBoard

(09-22-2020, 01:21 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]I definitely believe Schroeder will be moved bc OKC is in sell-off mode. The Sixers are trying to win a CHAMPIONSHIP. Yes they have moves to make but if Elton Brand doesn't retool this roster he is going to get fired. I don't see how Kennard for Richardson makes them better?

Schroeder had a great season and OKC will want to cash in terms of picks which they are gathering. I think 18 is pretty good, just outside of lottery. I would be surprised if a team would give higher than 18. Schroeder has some off-the-court stuff that really hurt his value and his outside shooting hasn't been good until this season. So ya I think 18 + Wright is possible for Dennis and not at all possible for Josh Richardson.

My sentiments exactly. Who knows if we are right, but that is my logic, 100%.

(09-22-2020, 01:37 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]My sentiments exactly. Who knows if we are right, but that is my logic, 100%.

Now imagine Richardson on a similar team as OKC. Someone rebuilding. What is his market price?

(09-22-2020, 01:18 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-22-2020, 01:05 PM)Jason Terry Wrote: [ -> ]Let’s not get carried away though since it was just the bubble. Burke should be viewed about the same as Boban- 11th and 12th guys on the team. It’s a long season and they may be needed.

Another vote for "flash in the pan." Very interesting.

For contrast, I post on another board where the consensus is that the worst possible thing the Mavs could do this off season is let Burke get away. 

I don't claim to know for sure, but I'm surprised there isn't more optimism here about him, considering he's the only person on the roster not named Luka even capable of doing what he did in the playoffs. I get the idea that he might never do it again, and that does give me pause, but he DID do things, right in front of our eyes, that THJ, Curry and Brunson cannot do. 

I highly doubt Carlisle envisioned making Burke one of the 4-5 most crucial players on the team when they signed him right before the bubble started. Burke TOOK that role. The way he played in the playoffs is, I think, what they envisioned Kemba Walker giving them. If there's a chance you can get that on a bargain deal, do we really think they pass it up because they're worried about developing BRUNSON?

Like I keep saying, it's really about whether they think he can keep playing that way. Ultimately, I will trust whatever call they make. But, I'm surprised sometimes by the fickle optimism applied by fans. I'm extremely optimistic about Burke, because at the very least, I've seen him take over an NBA playoff game.

I just don’t see how anyone can be so definitive that Burke is better than THj, Curry and Brunson. They “did” it all year and were literally part of the greatest offense in nba history. Burke has been “not doing it” his entire career. I don’t see how it could be so black and white he’s better than them. It’s just recency bias.

(09-22-2020, 01:37 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]Fun fact. Schroeder and JRich are born on exact same day

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(09-22-2020, 01:39 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]What is his market price?

Similar to Schroder....as Schroder is better but has character questions.

Dude, I'm not saying he's better than those players, I'm saying he's better at doing certain things than those players. They happen to be things that this team desperately needs. If they had a bunch of ball handlers and no space for them to work, I'd be looking for dudes just like Curry and THJ. 

I AM saying that what he did in THIS SERIES was better than I've ever seen Brunson play, and Brunson/Barea were the only two players on the roster previously who had any chance of playing that role. They were so starved for the combination of dribble penetration and smart playmaking (again, other than Luka) that Carlisle gave Delon Wright like a million chances to take the job. 

I do agree that recency bias plays a part in the discussion.

(09-22-2020, 01:46 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Dude, I'm not saying he's better than those players, I'm saying he's better at doing certain things than those players. They happen to be things that this team desperately needs. If they had a bunch of ball handlers and no space for them to work, I'd be looking for dudes just like Curry and THJ. 

I AM saying that what he did in THIS SERIES was better than I've ever seen Brunson play, and Brunson/Barea were the only two players on the roster previously who had any chance of playing that role. They were so starved for the combination of dribble penetration and smart playmaking (again, other than Luka) that Carlisle gave Delon Wright like a million chances to take the job. 

I do agree that recency bias plays a part in the discussion.

I guess my real point is: why is anything offensive related a top priority for us at all? I get that anyone we bring in needs to be able to shoot, but how do we need something “desperately” when we were the highest rated offensive team of all time?

(09-22-2020, 01:40 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Similar to Schroder....as Schroder is better but has character questions.

Thank you.

We were outmuscled and out-toughed against an ill fitting group of fraudulent contenders. We need guys first and foremost to fix that. Injuries is the next concern. That’s why we lost. Offense was great

(09-22-2020, 01:39 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-22-2020, 01:37 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]My sentiments exactly. Who knows if we are right, but that is my logic, 100%.

Now imagine Richardson on a similar team as OKC. Someone rebuilding. What is his market price?

If anything I would err on the value of both Schroeder and Richardson being higher than we think.

(09-22-2020, 01:50 PM)Jason Terry Wrote: [ -> ]why is anything offensive related a top priority for us at all?

IMO the Mavs need players who will help the team defense while NOT negatively impacting the offense. That is the goal.

(09-22-2020, 01:50 PM)Jason Terry Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-22-2020, 01:46 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Dude, I'm not saying he's better than those players, I'm saying he's better at doing certain things than those players. They happen to be things that this team desperately needs. If they had a bunch of ball handlers and no space for them to work, I'd be looking for dudes just like Curry and THJ.

I AM saying that what he did in THIS SERIES was better than I've ever seen Brunson play, and Brunson/Barea were the only two players on the roster previously who had any chance of playing that role. They were so starved for the combination of dribble penetration and smart playmaking (again, other than Luka) that Carlisle gave Delon Wright like a million chances to take the job.

I do agree that recency bias plays a part in the discussion.

I guess my real point is: why is anything offensive related a top priority for us at all? I get that anyone we bring in needs to be able to shoot, but how do we need something “desperately” when we were the highest rated offensive team of all time?

Because Luka is the only high-level playmaker on roster now, which leads to the other team being able to smother him on defense in the playoffs. I am not and never will be a "take the ball out of Luka's hands" troll, but there needs to be another guy who can do that not too short of Luka's level when he sits as well as to alleviate pressure when he's on the court. Brunson can do the former well, but plays awkwardly with Luka. Curry is offensively exactly what we need, but is a defensive liability. Burke is a poor man's version of what we need, but far better than anything else on roster currently. I suppose if you get a far superior version of Burke, then it stands to reason that you don't need Burke.

(09-22-2020, 01:50 PM)Jason Terry Wrote: [ -> ]I guess my real point is: why is anything offensive related a top priority for us at all? I get that anyone we bring in needs to be able to shoot, but how do we need something “desperately” when we were the highest rated offensive team of all time?

Defense needs to be improved, for sure. The offense is farther along than the defense, for sure. 

It's not "either/or" though.

Yes, they had a statistically great offensive system. Do you truly think they had the best offense in the league, in a practical, last five minutes of the game against a good team sort of way? I don't. I think the offensive limitations had every bit as much to do with their close game woes as the defensive limitations. 

These great teams who are making it deep into the playoffs all have MULTIPLE players on the floor who can create shots for themselves or others. KP is GREAT, but he's not going to create for others like Jokic does, for example. At least, not in the system the Mavs are building. 

They wanted Kemba Walker. We know that. After watching how Carlisle sent Burke right to the front of the minutes line against the Clippers, and watching how much better that made the team play, I finally get WHY they wanted Kemba Walker. I see and understand the vision they had, which, again, I've admitted I was skeptical of at the time. 

To be fair, I don't think this player HAS to be a guard. But, they literally only had Brunson and Barea on the roster as possibilities to provide this all season. I think we can assume, because of the Kemba bid, that they thought this was a problem, and personally I still assume they feel this way.

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Exactly what @"Scott41theMavs" said. I agree. 

When you get to the playoffs, the good teams can double or trap in ways where the first correct pass won't find an open shooter. So, you need a situation wherein Luka's pass can be more of a hockey assist. But, if the first pass finds a player who can't take the action needed to exploit the defense, your offense is going to hit a brick wall, at some point. 

This, essentially, is what sunk Houston and Milwaukee. I do not want to go down that path, personally.

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@"Scott41theMavs" I'm right there with your thinking on this, but I'll push back on Curry. I think he's special in some ways, and I agree that he can floor the ball and create for himself surprisingly well. Better than Burke. But, I don't see him as the type who can do that while simultaneously looking for ways to set up OTHER players.

(09-22-2020, 01:59 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]If anything I would err on the value of both Schroeder and Richardson being higher than we think.

Do you think a contender would pay 2 first round picks for their expiring contracts? Would a rebuilding team pay a lottery pick for their expiring contracts?

Clippers paid extremely late first rounder, pick swap and future second rounder for Morris. Is that really that much more than #18? And please, additional future second rounder is certainly not a deal braker if that is what it takes to get one of them. But I doubt the price would go up to two first round picks.

(09-22-2020, 02:00 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-22-2020, 01:50 PM)Jason Terry Wrote: [ -> ]why is anything offensive related a top priority for us at all?

IMO the Mavs need players who will help the team defense while NOT negatively impacting the offense. That is the goal.

Totally agree with this. What do you think of Bazemore one year MLE? Don’t know much about him but his wiki says he’s close with Steph Curry and the under armor gang so there’s possibly a Seth connection there. If we could fit Bazemore, Burke and 31 into the MLE that’d be awesome

(09-21-2020, 10:42 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]On Burke:

1) I LOVED what he brought to the table in the playoffs, his fight, energy, and aggression were huge when Luka was on the bench. I cannot say enough about him. He was +16.0 (!!!!) in the playoffs. Mavs were DESTROYED when he didn't play.

Very curious as to where that +16 stacks up against the all other Mavs who played during the series. 

Again, I can understand the skepticism that he'll every do it again, but OMG, at least he has done it once! I can't understand the devaluing of what he did in that series. It was a lifeline!

(09-22-2020, 02:01 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-22-2020, 01:50 PM)Jason Terry Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-22-2020, 01:46 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Dude, I'm not saying he's better than those players, I'm saying he's better at doing certain things than those players. They happen to be things that this team desperately needs. If they had a bunch of ball handlers and no space for them to work, I'd be looking for dudes just like Curry and THJ.

I AM saying that what he did in THIS SERIES was better than I've ever seen Brunson play, and Brunson/Barea were the only two players on the roster previously who had any chance of playing that role. They were so starved for the combination of dribble penetration and smart playmaking (again, other than Luka) that Carlisle gave Delon Wright like a million chances to take the job.

I do agree that recency bias plays a part in the discussion.

I guess my real point is: why is anything offensive related a top priority for us at all? I get that anyone we bring in needs to be able to shoot, but how do we need something “desperately” when we were the highest rated offensive team of all time?

Because Luka is the only high-level playmaker on roster now, which leads to the other team being able to smother him on defense in the playoffs. I am not and never will be a "take the ball out of Luka's hands" troll, but there needs to be another guy who can do that not too short of Luka's level when he sits as well as to alleviate pressure when he's on the court. Brunson can do the former well, but plays awkwardly with Luka. Curry is offensively exactly what we need, but is a defensive liability. Burke is a poor man's version of what we need, but far better than anything else on roster currently. I suppose if you get a far superior version of Burke, then it stands to reason that you don't need Burke.

“Playmaker” and what people are asking for is a secondary ball handler when Luka is off the floor? Brunson did it at the highest level when he was on the court. Burke, a guy we got off waivers from a playoff team, filked that role just fine. Carlisle has turned OJ Mayo into that. He’s turned Delonte West into that. He could even make Dennis Smith Jr into that. We can find that. What we always lacked was PRIMARY PLAYMAKER. We have that with luka. Kidd passed for that role. Haven’t truly had it since Nash

(09-22-2020, 02:27 PM)Jason Terry Wrote: [ -> ]“Playmaker” and what people are asking for is a secondary ball handler when Luka is off the floor? Brunson did it at the highest level when he was on the court. Burke, a guy we got off waivers from a playoff team, filked that role just fine. Carlisle has turned OJ Mayo into that. He’s turned Delonte West into that. He could even make Dennis Smith Jr into that. We can find that. What we always lacked was PRIMARY PLAYMAKER. We have that with luka. Kidd passed for that role. Haven’t truly had it since Nash

Totally and completely agree with the emboldened statement. They have done the hard part, no doubt. 

But I'm not talking about a backup point guard. I'm talking about having MULTIPLE playmakers on the floor SIMULTANEOUSLY.

Good: Dragic AND Butler AND Bam. Murray AND Jokic. Tatum AND Walker AND Brown AND Hayward. 

Bad: Harden AND...  Giannis (almost miscast in the role, to begin with) AND...  

So, it's not about thinking Burke would be better than Brunson at backup PG, because who cares? I agree, Brunson has proven that he's on his way to handling that role just fine. It's about acquiring more well rounded players who can do more different things with their minutes. If Burke was 6''7" I don't think anyone would even be comparing the two players. Unfortunately, neither player is big, so it's naive to think there won't be overlap with their minutes.

Some of this issue goes away if KP is healthy, but I still think you need more decision making on the floor to win it all.

(09-22-2020, 02:12 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-22-2020, 01:59 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]If anything I would err on the value of both Schroeder and Richardson being higher than we think.

Do you think a contender would pay 2 first round picks for their expiring contracts? Would a rebuilding team pay a lottery pick for their expiring contracts?

Clippers paid extremely late first rounder, pick swap and future second rounder for Morris. Is that really that much more than #18? And please, additional future second rounder is certainly not a deal braker if that is what it takes to get one of them. But I doubt the price would go up to two first round picks.

I don't know ab two first round picks but I expect if those guys are moved they will get a good return. If Philly moves Richardson its because they find a way to upgrade him which honestly to me is a hard ask. He is a good player on an expiring contract. I would expect all their attention to be on finding a way to move Horford and/or Tobias Harris for better fitting players.

JT, I simply disagree about Brunson. I thought he did fine running the second team on his own, but was a poor fit with Luka when they both played. I'd love to see what Kamm can offer in terms of offensive and defensive on-off with those two.

KL, I thought even as I was typing that about Seth that it might be overly generous, and you nailed why. Thanks. He's a very good player, but he's not a point guard.

(09-22-2020, 06:40 AM)DanSchwartzman Wrote: [ -> ]As I've said before.  There are three potential paths.  1.  Plan Powder.  2. Plan Have it Both Ways and 3. Plan Go for it now (and Powder be damned).

I think that´s exactly how the MBT thinks but I disagree. You don´t need to have expiring contracts or capspace in 2021 to sign a  max player. Are the Mavs afraid of a potential bad signing that is difficult to move next year? If that´s the case they are admiting a lack of trust in their own abilities.
That approach has been one of the main reasons (combined with a lack of interest in draft picks) why the Mavs suffered from a lack of assets in post championship era.