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getting rudy gobert would allow the mavs to trade KP for a third star

(11-05-2020, 05:29 PM)swaggerbox Wrote: [ -> ]getting rudy gobert would allow the mavs to trade KP for a third star

Right, there is a ton of flexibility with attaining such a valuable asset even if the fit on the court doesn't work (and I truly believe it does work on the court, as I think the stuff around Gobert is more urban legend than truth).

When you guys talk about Tobias in the future, I'm going to close my eyes and imagine you're talking about THIS Tobias (for the minimum). That way, I don't have to be so angry. 

(11-05-2020, 05:31 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Right, there is a ton of flexibility with attaining such a valuable asset even if the fit on the court doesn't work (and I truly believe it does work on the court, as I think the stuff around Gobert is more urban legend than truth).

1. Even if Utah "sells low", it would take all our assets to trade for Gobert
2. Gobert turns to a negative asset as soon as he gets his max contract. He will certainly blackmail the team that might trade for him to give him max or he walks. So unless you are absolutely sure he would work with KP, you don't trade for him. I am not sure it would work. Actually, I am with Killer on this one - I don't think it would work. And I am not the one even contemplating selling KP. I think he is much better than Gobert.

(11-05-2020, 05:29 PM)swaggerbox Wrote: [ -> ]getting rudy gobert would allow the mavs to trade KP for a third star

Then I can enjoy Gobert clogging the paint which is bad for Luka's game...

IF you're bound and determined to close ANY door to cap flexibility for the sake of "do something NOW" then the deal I'd make is Buddy Hield. He's attainable for what they have (if he's being shopped at all), he fits into the predefined role THJ was in last season, only he expands on it significantly. He has an edge to his personality that the team could use, imo. His age is in line with the team's timetable. 

I first started kicking this around as a lark a couple of months back, but the more I think about it, the more I love it. I think Hield, on a good team where he actually got good looks, would be LETHAL.

(11-05-2020, 05:53 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]When you guys talk about Tobias in the future, I'm going to close my eyes and imagine you're talking about THIS Tobias (for the minimum). That way, I don't have to be so angry. 

He, he. I really don't understand how you don't see all the benefits of trading for him. Because of the simple fact that he is overpaid, we can hope to get assets in this kind of trade. So we get a good player that fits on the team and we have a ton of options to further improve it. Alternatives are:
a) paying all our assets for similar type of players greatly decreasing any other opportunity to improve or
b) competing with half of the league who will pay max contract to the Oladipo and Hayward types in 2021 FA. Which will also cost assets as we will need to dump THJ and more to create space.

(11-05-2020, 06:01 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]He, he. I really don't understand how you don't see all the benefits of trading for him. Because of the simple fact that he is overpaid, we can hope to get assets in this kind of trade. So we get a good player that fits on the team and we have a ton of options to further improve it. Alternatives are:
a) paying all our assets for similar type of players greatly decreasing any other opportunity to improve or
b) competing with half of the league who will pay max contract to the Oladipo and Hayward types in 2021 FA. Which will also cost assets as we will need to dump THJ and more to create space.

Not all Mavs math is about the legality of acquiring players over the salary cap. Some of it has to do with Cuban's financial bottom line. I simply don't think a team where Luka, KP and Tobias Fünke as your max players can reach contender status. For me, it's about what you can do AFTER those three are in place.

(11-05-2020, 05:55 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]1. Even if Utah "sells low", it would take all our assets to trade for Gobert
2. Gobert turns to a negative asset as soon as he gets his max contract.

1) I personally don't think that is true. If Gobert gets dealt at any point soon we'll have to see what kind of haul he gets. I don't think the offers will be such that he would literally take "all our assets."

2) The only way Gobert becomes a "negative asset" is if he gets an achilles injury or something. He is an elite defender and has a severely underrated impact on team offense. He is 28. And I believe he will become more valuable once under team control and not now when he is holding UTA hostage over the super max and has the ability to walk soon.

Random: if the Mavs do trade for Tobias, do you think he'll wear jean cutoffs under his uniform?

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(11-05-2020, 06:08 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]2) The only way Gobert becomes a "negative asset" is if he gets an achilles injury or something. He is an elite defender and has a severely underrated impact on team offense. He is 28. And I believe he will become more valuable once under team control and not now when he is holding UTA hostage over the super max and has the ability to walk soon.

You think he's trying to walk away from Utah? I don't...at all. I think he's trying to get PAID by Utah, only they don't want to pay him. I think the reason he's available in trade is their hope that some other sucker will send them an asset or three in exchange for taking that PR mess off of their hands.

(11-05-2020, 05:18 PM)ClutchDirk Wrote: [ -> ]The Mavs need to get a 3rd star, dynamic scorer, or better closing players if the first 2 options aren't attainable...We were elite for 3 1/2 quarters just need to get better at closing to truly contend...

Better defense is what closes games.

(11-05-2020, 05:59 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]IF you're bound and determined to close ANY door to cap flexibility for the sake of "do something NOW" then the deal I'd make is Buddy Hield. He's attainable for what they have (if he's being shopped at all), he fits into the predefined role THJ was in last season, only he expands on it significantly. He has an edge to his personality that the team could use, imo. His age is in line with the team's timetable. 

I first started kicking this around as a lark a couple of months back, but the more I think about it, the more I love it. I think Hield, on a good team where he actually got good looks, would be LETHAL.

Hield is similarly overpaid as Harris. He is only a year younger. He is a big negative on defense not to mention all the attitude questions. He might slightly improve our team on offense but kills 2021 flexibility same way as Harris. Plus he might be more expensive to get. I don't get the logic in this direct comparison Hield-Harris.

(11-05-2020, 06:08 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]an asset or three in exchange for taking that PR mess off of their hands

I would gladly send UTA three assets for Gobert. Three assets for a top 20 player is a steal.

(11-05-2020, 06:14 PM)Oman Wrote: [ -> ]Hield is similarly overpaid as Harris. He is only a year younger. He is a big negative on defense not to mention all the attitude questions. He might slightly improve our team on offense but kills 2021 flexibility same way as Harris. Plus he might be more expensive to get. I don't get the logic in this direct comparison Hield-Harris.

Hield's extension starts next season at roughly $24 million and DECLINES for the next three, ending with him paid less than THJ made this season. He can handle the ball, is an elite shooter, and I believe he'd improve here.

Tobias Funke's deal will have him paid for the exact same length of time, only next year's total is $33 million, and the last year, when Hield is set to cost $18 million, Tobias will cost $40 million. He can't handle the ball, really, and will be very close to the exact same player here he was in Philly or LA. We know what he looks like on a good team, and it's a fit here, but very underwhelming.

(11-05-2020, 06:08 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-05-2020, 05:55 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]1. Even if Utah "sells low", it would take all our assets to trade for Gobert
2. Gobert turns to a negative asset as soon as he gets his max contract.

1) I personally don't think that is true. If Gobert gets dealt at any point soon we'll have to see what kind of haul he gets. I don't think the offers will be such that he would literally take "all our assets."

2) The only way Gobert becomes a "negative asset" is if he gets an achilles injury or something. He is an elite defender and has a severely underrated impact on team offense. He is 28. And I believe he will become more valuable once under team control and not now when he is holding UTA hostage over the super max and has the ability to walk soon.

#2 - The thing is, in 2021's NBA, Gobert, no matter how skilled he is at what he's skilled at, is binarily not a max player in the NBA. I would put Gobert in the Dipo category - if you're the team that has his rights in the 2021 offseason and offer him his true value in contract (i.e., not a max), then he's leaving in a huff. He'll end up signing for less than the max with someone else, but you're still out your assets that you used to trade for him. If you are willing to bend over for him and give him the max, then you have a player like Tobias who can't be traded without adding assets as sweeteners.

I believe that Gobert and Dipo hurt the Mavs moving forward because 1) they won't stay with the Mavs when their contracts expire unless we pay them more than they're worth, and 2) if we pay them more than they're worth, then we destroy flexibility for several years. No thanks on both. I don't think that all 2021 free agents are like that, but I think those two will be. Visions of psychotic grandiosity.

(11-05-2020, 06:18 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-05-2020, 06:08 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]an asset or three in exchange for taking that PR mess off of their hands

I would gladly send UTA three assets for Gobert. Three assets for a top 20 player is a steal.

Well then, I agree that it will be super interesting to see what his value is over the next couple of weeks. I do think he'll be moved.

I think a team with a center already in place who's looking at spending assets or future cap on that dude has already lost the war. We'll see how it plays out.

(11-05-2020, 06:06 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Not all Mavs math is about the legality of acquiring players over the salary cap. Some of it has to do with Cuban's financial bottom line. I simply don't think a team where Luka, KP and Tobias Fünke as your max players can reach contender status. For me, it's about what you can do AFTER those three are in place.

Personally I believe Harris is a legit third star. So, if you believe Luka and KP are legit first and second star, then I don't know how you can't see Mavs as contenders with this trio. I do believe that. Let's say it costs you THJ and Powell to trade for Harris and you also get Thybulle. Looking at starters, you have:

1. Luka, Brunson - we don't need any more on this spot
2. ?, Curry (we need a starter)
3. DFS, Thybulle - fine wing defenders, either is fine as fifth starter
4. Harris, Kleber
5. KP, WCS, Bobi

I even ignored Wright.

To fill that question mark, you have following options
1. draft (#18 or trade up)
2. trade (Wright+picks, Curry+picks, Kleber+picks - plenty of options for some mid tier guys like Schroeder, perhaps even Hield)
3. MLE - poor man option is Burke
4. 2021 FA - we will still have around 15 mil to spend if we dump Wright and MLE is one year only

@"omahen" If you believe a core of Luka, KP and Harris automatically puts the team into contention and would then be easy to build around, then I can understand why you'd be interested. 

I absolutely do not believe that. So I am not interested. Maybe the source of the disagreement is just that simple.

(11-05-2020, 06:21 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]I believe that Gobert and Dipo hurt the Mavs moving forward because 1) they won't stay with the Mavs when their contracts expire unless we pay them more than they're worth, and 2) if we pay them more than they're worth, then we destroy flexibility for several years. No thanks on both. I don't think that all 2021 free agents are like that, but I think those two will be. Visions of psychotic grandiosity.

As I think Kawhi and George being free agents in 2021 are dreams, I think any third star we want to get we will have to overpay. Either in assets, salary or both. But as Dan already explained nicely a couple of pages back - Cuban's wallet will be the only thing affected by this overpay.

Ok, my dudes. I've got to pop out for a few hours to handle something work related. Try your best not to get excited about trading Luka for DeAndre Ayton to play the 3 next to Gobert/Porzingis while I'm away.