MavsBoard

(11-19-2020, 01:16 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-19-2020, 01:10 AM)cjeter24 Wrote: [ -> ]I'd have to think that regardless of Bogdan, the Mavs are going to be dangling Brunson, Wright and Jackson as a SNT package to someone. If anything has been made clear the last few days if a team likes the deal, they aren't really balking at extra year of salary coming back at them.

I think that package (minus Brunson) is likely to get dangled, but I wouldn't expect much to come back, and I'm curious, what makes you think they've turned the page on long term salary? I mean, you might be 100% correct, but Richardson is very likely to opt out next year with all the cap room flying around, so they CREATED more space tonight, rather than reducing it. It's just that the moves got us so excited nobody cares. 

I'm not saying I'm sure that was the point, but I don't (yet) see proof that they've turned the page. Just saying. Now, a three year deal for Milsap at the MLE, or something like that? I think that will prove it a little, but even then I think they're still within striking distance, now that they have things other teams want. They could trade DFS to create space and still have Green, for example. 

I think this is @"DanSchwartzman"'s wet dream, so far.

I think everyone turned the page a few nights ago with Jrue and Giannis likely both coming off the table. I think they will continue to be smart. So if there is something they really want next summer and they are available they can pull a Heat and Jimmy Butler situation. I mean Miami sort of setup a beautiful blueprint for Mavs to copy. 

My point on dangling that package is it's essentially the same package the Bucks sent to the Kings but with 1 extra year of salary with Wright. And it got Bogdan. So the Kings are morons or the league would value a guy like Brunson more than we think. Maybe it's somewhere in between since it's not the exact trade.

(11-19-2020, 01:23 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I KNOW they value THJ more than this board does,

I'm thinking they trade him for Hayward, that's thinking low of him? I think he upped his value this year and we should capitalize on that, similar to what OKC is doing with their guys.

13 players on the main roster already assuming these draft picks are here to stay. 14 if THJ opts in. 15 if the one more year of JJB rumors are true. One two way spot already given out. Seems something is going to happen trade wise if we are "not done". Got my popcorn ready.

(11-19-2020, 01:23 AM)jesusshuttlesworth82 Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-19-2020, 01:10 AM)cjeter24 Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-19-2020, 01:00 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think they move THJ, I really don't.

I think they believe that shooting is the most important thing, and now that Curry is gone, I have a hard time seeing THJ as a tool to create more (short term) change to the roster. 

You can argue that Hield gives you the same thing, only better, but A) I don't think this is the year for too much roster turnover and B) I think THJ might get you more in trade at the deadline if you really want to move him.

I think the Gallo thing went away when OKC traded for 17 instead of 18, and I'm GLAD. Would love to have the player, but not at the expense of how we're all feeling right now, getting this youthful shot in the arm. 

I do now fully expect the universe to offer them up something great for the MLE, and then I think they're done. 

Just my prediction.

THJ staying makes a ton of sense regardless of what we do in FA as a 6th man. That's the role he should be. 

He looked terrible until he got to play next to Luka.  Him being the 6th man is the last thing I want.  Freedom to chuck of terrible shots.

He definitely did. And I alluded to that. But that's the role he should be because I don't think he's good enough to be a starter on a championship team. He lacks the playmaking to create the offense from a guy who isn't the best defender.

If he's still terrible in that role... Move him. Tho maybe you saw enough last year to say lets move him anyways.

FWIW I'm not sure Hayward is that guy either. But I reserve the right to be wrong on that one.

(11-19-2020, 01:20 AM)cjeter24 Wrote: [ -> ]But yeah that's sort of what I'm getting at to. If he isn't going to be a 6th man... Move on from him. Because he's not the long term answer as a starter.

I'm all about moving on from the guys that will not be here long term: Wright, Brunson, THJ, Bobi.

I'm also okay locking into a 3-4 year plan for our team now that the Giannis dream is all but dead. I thought the Bogdan deal with in the 17M range. Is that an overpay? Maybe, especially if the CAP remains flat for a while but if nothing in the 2021 FA class excites you, let's chase Bogdan, Buddy, or Hayward. Hayward would be the most expensive with Buddy in the middle. Hayward and Buddy probably more easily create their own shots which could help out in the clutch. Hayward is the worst distance shooter. Gallo is too old for my liking. LaVine is out of reach. Oladino is an idiot.

(11-19-2020, 01:25 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]By the way, someone might have mentioned this already, but big ups to @ItsGoTime, who has been on the Josh Richardson train for like two months. I'm happiest for you, my guy.

I got it from Omahen for sure and thought like him we'd have to give up the pick, not the other way around. But thanks! Once I heard it from him, I certainly drove the train for a while. I really like that trade a lot! It says to me as a fan that they really do value defense!


At this point I don't NEED OPJ, but I still think he'd be a good fit here.

(11-19-2020, 01:31 AM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-19-2020, 01:20 AM)cjeter24 Wrote: [ -> ]But yeah that's sort of what I'm getting at to. If he isn't going to be a 6th man... Move on from him. Because he's not the long term answer as a starter.

I'm all about moving on from the guys that will not be here long term:  Wright, Brunson, THJ, Bobi. 

I'm also okay locking into a 3-4 year plan for our team now that the Giannis dream is all but dead.  I thought the Bogdan deal with in the 17M range.  Is that an overpay?  Maybe, especially if the CAP remains flat for a while but if nothing in the 2021 FA class excites you, let's chase Bogdan, Buddy, or Hayward.  Hayward would be the most expensive with Buddy in the middle.  Hayward and Buddy probably more easily create their own shots which could help out in the clutch.  Hayward is the worst distance shooter.  Gallo is too old for my liking.  LaVine is out of reach.  Oladino is an idiot.

Bobi is here forever. He's the Mavs 3rd untouchable.

(11-19-2020, 01:32 AM)cjeter24 Wrote: [ -> ]Bobi is here forever. He's the Mavs 3rd untouchable.

I don't mind. I wish we utilized him more but he's great in the locker room and with the fans.

(11-19-2020, 01:27 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-19-2020, 01:23 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I KNOW they value THJ more than this board does,

I'm thinking they trade him for Hayward, that's thinking low of him? I think he upped his value this year and we should capitalize on that, similar to what OKC is doing with their guys.

No not at all, but I think THEY believe he was not only good last season, but a big part of why the team was successful. I just get the sense that they like his approach in the locker room and as a pro. I heard Donnie gush the other day about how much synergy there was between he and Luka on the court. That pulled it all back into focus. 

I really think THEY are probably happy to keep THIS version of Hield who they already know fits their culture, wants to be here and hasn't yet required a long term financial commitment. 

You know how I feel about Hayward, but I'm not sure he's a fit with Richardson. Or at least, maybe not worth the contract now. I know Richardson will shoot better than he did last year, but I think he's the guy who will have the ball a little more than anyone besides Luka did last season, so THJ is objectively a better offensive fit, I think (might be wrong about this). I have an easier time seeing Richardson do what Burke did than what Curry did on offense, if that makes sense. 

To me, the value of paying Hayward was as a playmaker, but the Mavs went defense (like you wanted them to). Instead of getting a great playmaker who's a decent shooter and decent defender, they got a great defender who's a decent shooter (probably) and a decent playmaker (we hope). I think THJ, DFS, KP and Kleber all spacing for those guys is what makes it work. That's my read on it tonight, anyway.

I think the Mavs wanted both:

a 3 and D wing
a secondary playmaker

They got the first thing.  I think they're still searching for the second thing.

(although I agree with all the things you said about them liking THJ more than most fans)

We still have the MLE tho. Tho they could be very well be done dealing.

(11-19-2020, 01:05 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]@DanSchwartzman It's not really being talked about, but aren't we technically still within the boundaries of your plan HIBW? In fact, if the off season stopped right this second, are they CLOSER to cap space?

And they've managed to complete misdirect us away from complaining about it. 

If this works, you extend Richardson and maybe even THJ. Or, one or the other. If not - there's some space to sign players, absorb contracts (for draft capital), etc, etc. 

Donnie is KILLING IT lately, immfhao

I think Mavs are in an awesome position. If available, I would upgrade THJ+Wright+Jackson+2027 FRP for Hayward on his current contract. He is better player than THJ, he is the secondary creator we need and he is much better defensively than THJ. THJ, Wright and Jackson will be most likely gone anyway after this season, so why not doing it if possible. While Hayward and Richardson are a bit worse shooters than THJ, they are still good enough for opponents to guard. If they are open, they will punish them. That's why I don't think spacing would be any worse. You have a ton of flexibility in 2021. If team works perfectly, you can resign everyone. If (real) max free agent wants to come you have cap space. 

Luka, Brunson
Richardson, Terry, vet min
Hayward, MLE, Green
DFS, Kleber, Bey
KP, Powell, Bobi

If Hayward is not possible, I would keep THJ and trade Wright for poor man options like Snell, Young and similar. Young would also be great on this team and it would allow us to bring shooter for MLE. Poor man shooter that might be available for Wright salary would also be McDermott.

In any case, the future is bright.

(11-19-2020, 01:37 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]No not at all, but I think THEY believe he was not only good last season, but a big part of why the team was successful. I just get the sense that they like his approach in the locker room and as a pro. I heard Donnie gush the other day about how much synergy there was between he and Luka on the court. That pulled it all back into focus. 

I really think THEY are probably happy to keep THIS version of Hield who they already know fits their culture, wants to be here and hasn't yet required a long term financial commitment. 

You know how I feel about Hayward, but I'm not sure he's a fit with Richardson. Or at least, maybe not worth the contract now. I know Richardson will shoot better than he did last year, but I think he's the guy who will have the ball a little more than anyone besides Luka did last season, so THJ is objectively a better offensive fit, I think (might be wrong about this). I have an easier time seeing Richardson do what Burke did than what Curry did on offense, if that makes sense. 

To me, the value of paying Hayward was as a playmaker, but the Mavs went defense (like you wanted them to). Instead of getting a great playmaker who's a decent shooter and decent defender, they got a great defender who's a decent shooter (probably) and a decent playmaker (we hope). I think THJ, DFS, KP and Kleber all spacing for those guys is what makes it work. That's my read on it tonight, anyway.

By all accounts, we should have been bitching about THJ like we did Parsons and Barnes. Mostly to his credit, but also to the coaching staff and his pops, he's been a great Maverick and came closer to earning the dollars on his contract than any of hoped to imagine. He's also a great kid. Of course Donnie is going to talk him up, but we all know his limitations and the MBT have said everyone is on the table short of Luka and KP. If you can upgrade THJ, you need to do it. We'll need offensive punch to start the season anyway while all the new pieces come together and while we try to make up for KP's absence. We also need someone consistent in the clutch to take pressure off of Luka who can create their own shot. Some nights that THJ, some nights its not.

If you really want to keep THJ for the year, figure out a way to get Lou Williams on the team for that role.

(11-19-2020, 01:00 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think they move THJ, I really don't.

I think they believe that shooting is the most important thing, and now that Curry is gone, I have a hard time seeing THJ as a tool to create more (short term) change to the roster. 

You can argue that Hield gives you the same thing, only better, but A) I don't think this is the year for too much roster turnover and B) I think THJ might get you more in trade at the deadline if you really want to move him.

I think the Gallo thing went away when OKC traded for 17 instead of 18, and I'm GLAD. Would love to have the player, but not at the expense of how we're all feeling right now, getting this youthful shot in the arm. 

I do now fully expect the universe to offer them up something great for the MLE (they're living a charmed life as a franchise these days), and then I think they're done. 

Just my prediction.

My thoughts exactly. Everyone but Boban is under 30. Good mix now of 3 upside prospects with win now young players ready to go next month. Ideally we re-sign Hardaway and Richardson but could always trade them or let them walk if needed.

(11-19-2020, 01:37 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-19-2020, 01:27 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-19-2020, 01:23 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I KNOW they value THJ more than this board does,

I'm thinking they trade him for Hayward, that's thinking low of him? I think he upped his value this year and we should capitalize on that, similar to what OKC is doing with their guys.

No not at all, but I think THEY believe he was not only good last season, but a big part of why the team was successful. I just get the sense that they like his approach in the locker room and as a pro. I heard Donnie gush the other day about how much synergy there was between he and Luka on the court. That pulled it all back into focus. 

I really think THEY are probably happy to keep THIS version of Hield who they already know fits their culture, wants to be here and hasn't yet required a long term financial commitment. 

You know how I feel about Hayward, but I'm not sure he's a fit with Richardson. Or at least, maybe not worth the contract now. I know Richardson will shoot better than he did last year, but I think he's the guy who will have the ball a little more than anyone besides Luka did last season, so THJ is objectively a better offensive fit, I think (might be wrong about this). I have an easier time seeing Richardson do what Burke did than what Curry did on offense, if that makes sense. 

To me, the value of paying Hayward was as a playmaker, but the Mavs went defense (like you wanted them to). Instead of getting a great playmaker who's a decent shooter and decent defender, they got a great defender who's a decent shooter (probably) and a decent playmaker (we hope). I think THJ, DFS, KP and Kleber all spacing for those guys is what makes it work. That's my read on it tonight, anyway.

Interesting. I don't see JRich as much of a playmaker and that's why I think Hayward (who I think is MORE of a playmaker, not necessarily a good to great one). If JRich is more of a playmaker than I'm thinking then all the better with Hayward and him together IMO. Between the 2 of them, they possibly make the 1 playmaker we need? That was kinda my thought process for them. 


Of the guys left over, Oladipo and Hayward are the most Mavs gettable and highest end playmakers (Bogdan is too, that whole thing just hasn't settled for me yet). I think Hayward is probably the better/more safe option between the two, and I know Donnie and Ainge have already talked so that was me putting 2 and 2 together.

(11-19-2020, 01:44 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]2027 FRP

No more FRPs. Especially not for Hayward.

Now just need at least 1 more secondary playmaker and a quality backup big.

If Donnie could somehow turn Wright+Jackson into one and the MLE into another, not sure there’s more I could ask for.

(11-19-2020, 01:44 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-19-2020, 01:05 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]@DanSchwartzman It's not really being talked about, but aren't we technically still within the boundaries of your plan HIBW? In fact, if the off season stopped right this second, are they CLOSER to cap space?

And they've managed to complete misdirect us away from complaining about it. 

If this works, you extend Richardson and maybe even THJ. Or, one or the other. If not - there's some space to sign players, absorb contracts (for draft capital), etc, etc. 

Donnie is KILLING IT lately, immfhao

I think Mavs are in an awesome position. If available, I would upgrade THJ+Wright+Jackson+2027 FRP for Hayward on his current contract. He is better player than THJ, he is the secondary creator we need and he is much better defensively than THJ. THJ, Wright and Jackson will be most likely gone anyway after this season, so why not doing it if possible. While Hayward and Richardson are a bit worse shooters than THJ, they are still good enough for opponents to guard. If they are open, they will punish them. That's why I don't think spacing would be any worse. You have a ton of flexibility in 2021. If team works perfectly, you can resign everyone. If (real) max free agent wants to come you have cap space. 

Luka, Brunson
Richardson, Terry, vet min
Hayward, MLE, Green
DFS, Kleber, Bey
KP, Powell, Bobi

If Hayward is not possible, I would keep THJ and trade Wright for poor man options like Snell, Young and similar. Young would also be great on this team and it would allow us to bring shooter for MLE. Poor man shooter that might be available for Wright salary would also be McDermott.

In any case, the future is bright.

Just no on any sort of 1st for Hayward. I'd argue there's nobody left we know that's on the market that's actually worthy of a distant first. Lets get back our 1sts first please. 

The issue I have with Hayward is that I'm not sure he's that guy anymore. A fully healthy Hayward under 30? Absolutely. 
Also at the price he will cost either to sign or trade for... That's going to really make things difficult on the rest of your roster construction. It's sort of major questions about his current game + cost. 

I mentioned yesterday that I'd only want to go around 20 a year for him. That's his top end value to me and everyone here said that wouldn't be enough (and I wasn't saying it would be). I don't think any team using about 30% of their cap space on Hayward is ever contending. Boston is way over now so maybe it's to a team that doesn't have cap space in a deal as sort of a finishing move. I'd suspect most teams don't have a gaping hole at SF that are contenders tho.

(11-19-2020, 01:51 AM)cjeter24 Wrote: [ -> ]Just no on any sort of 1st for Hayward. I'd argue there's nobody left we know that's on the market that's actually worthy of a distant first. Lets get back our 1sts first please. 

The issue I have with Hayward is that I'm not sure he's that guy anymore. A fully healthy Hayward under 30? Absolutely. 
Also at the price he will cost either to sign or trade for... That's going to really make things difficult on the rest of your roster construction. It's sort of major questions about his current game + cost. 

I mentioned yesterday that I'd only want to go around 20 a year for him. That's his top end value to me and everyone here said that wouldn't be enough (and I wasn't saying it would be). I don't think any team using about 30% of their cap space on Hayward is ever contending. Boston is way over now so maybe it's to a team that doesn't have cap space in a deal as sort of a finishing move. I'd suspect most teams don't have a gaping hole at SF that are contenders tho.

I think a good rule of thumb for trading FRPs would be: is the player you are acquiring going to be on the team with that pick conveys.

Bobby Karalla posted some stats on twitter. Richardson was 40% shooting open 3s his last 2 years in Miami. We may have gotten a 3 and d player that actually shoots closer to 40% than we actually think. 

Josh Richardson pouring in around 15 ppg with defense and that level of shooting? That's a really nice get. 

It's a huge if that his shooting picks back up on the shortened offseason. But essentially the #s suggest it's more of an issue with Philly's team than the player.