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Lol...turd burger

(10-30-2020, 06:10 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-30-2020, 06:01 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]I am sure Mavs would not do this deal if they think they can get Giannis. But what if Giannis is not on the table, what do you think then?

I'd be shocked if they don't have better options right now, even better options that I STILL wouldn't be excited about. I don't think that deal is a punt on Giannis, I think it's a punt on everything. 

I'd do Buddy Hield instead of this so fast your head would spin, and that's just literally the first thing that popped into my head. 

Hell, literally EVERY other thing we've discussed in this thread is better, imo. Give me high priced role players without the third top end guy in place, which is the opposite of what I've been preaching, before you give me Harris and his contract.

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(10-30-2020, 06:09 PM)Mike lorenzo Wrote: [ -> ]I like Harris..but that contract is terrible and as time goes by immovable ... I'm not sure if he's the guy to lock up with Luka..and he's an average defender ... I'd rather roll the dice 1 year with Hayward, who will likely sign cheaper in the long run and chase Jrue at FA 21

I think @"fifteenth" on a 1 year deal for the Max would be a better investment for the Mavs in the long run.

Yes on Buddy. 

It's not a sexy improvement... But the reality is that Buddy is a better high volume shooter than THJ. He might be worse defensively but I don't think he's a sieve and I think he'll be just as fine as THJ there eventually. Buddy is also slightly bigger and stockier so he already may be a better defender at the 3 which THJ plays a ton at. 

If we can't get Jrue and don't have a major long term upgrade at another position, Buddy is a really nice get as a 3rd piece and long term starter. I would consider him a star even at 20ppg at high volume efficient 3pt shooting.

Awww, that's too bad. Can't see the posts on mobile dark. This is now one of those threads.

(10-30-2020, 11:12 PM)cjeter24 Wrote: [ -> ]Yes on Buddy. 

It's not a sexy improvement... But the reality is that Buddy is a better high volume shooter than THJ. He might be worse defensively but I don't think he's a sieve and I think he'll be just as fine as THJ there eventually. Buddy is also slightly bigger and stockier so he already may be a better defender at the 3 which THJ plays a ton at. 

If we can't get Jrue and don't have a major long term upgrade at another position, Buddy is a really nice get as a 3rd piece and long term starter. I would consider him a star even at 20ppg at high volume efficient 3pt shooting.

While I don't love the idea of Hield, of a lot of the popular names tossed around here, he makes me cringe the least. He's a prime candidate for a player that needs a fresh start in a stable organization. If you can turn his defense into something serviceable he has the potential to be a longer term fit. I think I still prefer the idea of moving up in the draft for Nesmith.

(10-30-2020, 10:53 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]Who is trolling?

Almost all of the bickering on this forum stems from people not actually listening to each other and jumping to unfair and wild conclusions. People love this forum because it is quality discussion. Discussion ceases to be quality when false arguments are projected onto other posters.

I like Korkmaz a lot and think he has good potential. Most people are not familiar with him and his potential for growth at 23. I posted one video without comment. I never claimed Korkmaz was "all world." I ACTUALLY stated that he is a "good, long wing player with two way potential." I like his role player potential with Luka and KP.

You may not like Korkmaz or his fit in DAL, legit opinion. You may also hate Harris's contract (welcome to the club), legit opinion. There are ways to say those opinions in a constructive way rather than implying that 40% three point shooting Korkmaz (again better than THJ's career year last year) is as much as a disaster as 29% three point, 34% overall shooting DSJ. Such a comparison creates an extreme, unnuanced picture that is not fair to reality.

I couldn't care less about myself or this particular little incident, but I have been asked to help make this forum a good place for discussion, just trying to encourage that. Let's just address each other's actual positions. 

P.S. Sorry if the "laughably dumb" comment was offensive. I was not saying you were dumb (cause you are clearly not), I was just saying the comparison of DSJ to Korkmaz was. I will do better with kinder language.

(10-30-2020, 09:41 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]Harris seems like a great dude, but his contract is atrocious.  Even if they took Powell and Wright, I'm going to need more than a 2nd and Korkmaz for that trouble.

20-21:  34.3m
21-22:  35.9m
22-23:  37.3m
23-34:  39.2m!

...a lot more.

I wonder if the team looks at those numbers on a net basis?  In 20/21 Harris is a wash against the outgoing salary.  In 20/21 you net out what you were going to pay Wright and Powell ($20mm) and Harris costs $16mm.  He's $26 million in 22/23 (netting just Powell) and he's a massive $39 million expiring deal in 23/24 (the same time KP expires).  So, on a four year basis, the extra net cost of Harris is $55mm or $14mm per year.  

The next question is whether he's worth the extra cost (and if not, does Korkmaz and a pick make up the difference).  The recent rankings from The Athletic put him in the same 38-80 tier as Gallinari, Hayward, Aldridge, Oladipo, Porter and Conley.  Harris is the youngest and among the healthiest the last two seasons.  He's also the highest paid by a wide margin.  All of those guys have warts but that is what you are probably looking at as it is hard to find a deal that makes sense for a top 38 guy.  To me, I'd want to convince THJ to opt-in before the draft so that the 21st pick could be brought into the picture instead of the future 2nd (maybe he agrees since he'd be going to a contender).  The value charts say 18 + 21 equals about #7 or so.  Now your talking.

Regardless of who gets paid what, the bottom line question is which team is better?

KP/T. Harris/DFS/Kork/Luka

or

KP/Powell/DFS/THJ/Luka

Both teams still have WCS/Maxi/No one/Curry and Brunson off the bench.  There is also the pick(s), the MLE and possibly a trade of Jackson/31 to add to the roster.  Bear in mind also that Harris would work as a straight up trade for Giannis next summer.  If you are Milwaukee, do you let him go to Miami for free or do you take back Harris and stay competitive while he and Middleton are still in their primes.  Last thing, Korkmaz is an Excel guy if anyone cares.

Still, it's not a given that Hayward is going to opt in with Boston for next season. During a recent episode of The Lowe Post podcast, ESPN's Zach Lowe noted that there's "some buzz out there" regarding Hayward's status with the Celtics for 2020-21.

"The buzz that I'm hearing is like the smoke, the smoke indicating that something is happening," Lowe said on the podcast. "I'm not sure what's up, but I don't think it's a lock that Gordon Hayward is on the Celtics next year."

ESPN's Bobby Marks also chimed in on the podcast with some Hayward buzz, noting that he may be seeing what his options could be should he decide not to return to Boston.

"I think what his agent, Mark Bartelstein, is doing right now is canvassing the league," Marks said. "He's doing the Al Horford plan."

(10-31-2020, 08:12 AM)DanSchwartzman Wrote: [ -> ]I wonder if the team looks at those numbers on a net basis?  In 20/21 Harris is a wash against the outgoing salary.  In 20/21 you net out what you were going to pay Wright and Powell ($20mm) and Harris costs $16mm.  He's $26 million in 22/23 (netting just Powell) and he's a massive $39 million expiring deal in 23/24 (the same time KP expires).  So, on a four year basis, the extra net cost of Harris is $55mm or $14mm per year. 

Thanks for writing that out.

So if the Mavs made a near max offer for Tobias last summer after Kemba fell through, how has their thinking changed?  Or has it changed?

https://clutchpoints.com/mavs-rumors-pla...as-harris/

(10-31-2020, 08:12 AM)DanSchwartzman Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-30-2020, 09:41 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]Harris seems like a great dude, but his contract is atrocious.  Even if they took Powell and Wright, I'm going to need more than a 2nd and Korkmaz for that trouble.

20-21:  34.3m
21-22:  35.9m
22-23:  37.3m
23-34:  39.2m!

...a lot more.

I wonder if the team looks at those numbers on a net basis?  In 20/21 Harris is a wash against the outgoing salary.  In 20/21 you net out what you were going to pay Wright and Powell ($20mm) and Harris costs $16mm.  He's $26 million in 22/23 (netting just Powell) and he's a massive $39 million expiring deal in 23/24 (the same time KP expires).  So, on a four year basis, the extra net cost of Harris is $55mm or $14mm per year.  

The next question is whether he's worth the extra cost (and if not, does Korkmaz and a pick make up the difference).  The recent rankings from The Athletic put him in the same 38-80 tier as Gallinari, Hayward, Aldridge, Oladipo, Porter and Conley.  Harris is the youngest and among the healthiest the last two seasons.  He's also the highest paid by a wide margin.  All of those guys have warts but that is what you are probably looking at as it is hard to find a deal that makes sense for a top 38 guy.  To me, I'd want to convince THJ to opt-in before the draft so that the 21st pick could be brought into the picture instead of the future 2nd (maybe he agrees since he'd be going to a contender).  The value charts say 18 + 21 equals about #7 or so.  Now your talking.

Regardless of who gets paid what, the bottom line question is which team is better?

KP/T. Harris/DFS/Kork/Luka

or

KP/Powell/DFS/THJ/Luka

Both teams still have WCS/Maxi/No one/Curry and Brunson off the bench.  There is also the pick(s), the MLE and possibly a trade of Jackson/31 to add to the roster.  Bear in mind also that Harris would work as a straight up trade for Giannis next summer.  If you are Milwaukee, do you let him go to Miami for free or do you take back Harris and stay competitive while he and Middleton are still in their primes.  Last thing, Korkmaz is an Excel guy if anyone cares.

If they count like this, it would mean they think Wright and Powell would have an on and off court and trade opportunity value of exact Zero.  

And a year ago they thought their value is 20 Mio. That would be very concerning. 

Better POV would be to look how much of an overpay he is every season and if the compensation is worth the missed opportunitys. 

I think its very hard to set a value on Powell. Let's say 5 Mio overpay a year as the middle of his salary. 
I don't think Wright is really overpaid just a very bad fit. 

Tobi is overpaid about 15 Mio a year. 
So we would need as compensation a player about 10 Mio better than his contract.

Love the idea of the Philly trade. Not thrilled with the money Harris is getting tho.

Maybe we could also sign Reggie Jackson with the MLE. Dude went off in the playoffs. Plays hard defense. Could be the poor man’s Jrue Holiday we need. ??‍♂️

(10-31-2020, 08:12 AM)DanSchwartzman Wrote: [ -> ]KP/T. Harris/DFS/Kork/Luka

or

KP/Powell/DFS/THJ/Luka

I like the one with Tobi and Korki. It should "theoretically" be better defensively (full switchability) while not losing any shooting.

I went through The Athletic top players (from Tier 4A to 1A) to check who might be available for Mavs this and next offseason.

61. Oladipo: might be available
60. Harris: might be available
59. SGA: no way
58. Covington: only asset Houston has. I think the only chance for us if they tear it down or trade him to a tanking team
57. Tucker: same as RoCo, I think they are overvaluing him in this evaluation. Might be available next year as FA
56. Vucevic: I wouldn't trade for him, even if he is available
55. Smart: no way
54. Brogdon: no way
53. Aldridge: I think he is available. He is better then our Wrights and perhaps Powell, so if there is nothing better...
52. Nurkic: no way
51. Wall: no way
50. Ingles: I think he is declining. Utah would not let him go cheaply
49. Hayward: 2020 trade, SnT or 2021 FA
48. Dragic: I think he stays in Miami 99,99 %. I would bring him for MLE, but he will certainly get more. Dallas is not there yet to overpay a vet as final piece of the puzzle
47. Van Vleet: His fit next to Doncic is intriguing, but I think he is overpayed at 20 per
46. Sabonis: no way and bad fit
45. Rose: I think he could be had relatively cheaply in 2020 or as FA in 2021. I don't think he is a particularly good fit and we have back up PG (Brunson)
44. DeRozan: same as Aldridge
43. Fox: no way
42. Green: we could get him, if he is traded to a tanking team. He is in same category as DeRozan or Aldridge for me
41. Gallo: possible SnT, questionable fit due to his lack of defense. Interesting as scoring punch from the bench. 
40. McCullom: no way (Portland would demand way too much)
39. Lopez: no way and bad fit
38. Ingram: no way
37. Zion: no way
36. Trae: no way
35. Westbrook: Houston can have him
34. KP
33. Klay: no way
32. Brown: no way
31. Ja Morant: no way
30. Siakam: no way
29. Irving: no way and no thank you
28. Draymond: no way (I would run away if they would be shopping him - a signal he is done)
27. Mitchell: no way
26. Booker: no way
25. Beal: no way
24. Lowry: Would be a great fit, but I doubt it is worth trading for him. Possible as FA in 2021
23. Middleton: no way (if Giannis leaves, a trade might be possible - he would be a good fit)
22. Kemba: no way
21. KAT: no way
20. Jrue: might be traded, but seems too expensive. Possible as 2021 FA
19. Jamal Murray: no way
18. Simmons: no way
17. Adebayo: no way
16. Gobert: possible trade or 2021 FA (I think he is a bad fit)
15. George: we don't have the pieces for a trade, might be FA in 2021
14. Tatum: no way
13. CP3: too expensive for us at this point (unless SnT for Lee in excess of 20 mil would be accepted...)
12. Embiid: no way (even if they trade him, we don't have the ammo)
11. Butler: no way
10. Lillard: no way
9. Jokic: no way
8. Doncic
7. Davis: no way
6. Curry: no way
5. Durant: no way
4. James: no way
3. Kawhi: might be FA in 2021
2. Harden: no way
1. Giannis: 2021 FA


So if we exclude the "no ways one", we can split theoretically available ones into following groups.

Possible 2021 FA: Oladipo, Hayward, DeRozan, Aldridge, Lowry, Green, JRue (PO), Gobert, George (PO), Kawhi (PO), Giannis, Tucker, Rose
Possible 2020 FA: VanVleet, Hayward (PO), DeRozan (PO), Gallo
Realistically available by trade: Harris, Tucker, Hayward, Rose, DeRozan, Aldridge, Lowry, JRue, Gobert
Might be available by trade if other things happen: Covington, Green

(10-31-2020, 10:36 AM)Hypermav Wrote: [ -> ]So if the Mavs made a near max offer for Tobias last summer after Kemba fell through, how has their thinking changed?  Or has it changed?

https://clutchpoints.com/mavs-rumors-pla...as-harris/

I think the difference between a near max offer and a max offer is the key here. The Mavs signed everyone last year to the exact dollar amount necessary for a max slot of Giannis' pedigree for 21'. For a team that was planning ahead 2 1/2 years, I doubt they'd have thrown such a huge contract at Harris without some caveats.

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(10-31-2020, 01:14 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]I went through The Athletic top players (from Tier 4A to 1A) to check who might be available for Mavs this and next offseason.

61. Oladipo: might be available
60. Harris: might be available
59. SGA: no way
58. Covington: only asset Houston has. I think the only chance for us if they tear it down or trade him to a tanking team
57. Tucker: same as RoCo, I think they are overvaluing him in this evaluation. Might be available next year as FA
56. Vucevic: I wouldn't trade for him, even if he is available
55. Smart: no way
54. Brogdon: no way
53. Aldridge: I think he is available. He is better then our Wrights and perhaps Powell, so if there is nothing better...
52. Nurkic: no way
51. Wall: no way
50. Ingles: I think he is declining. Utah would not let him go cheaply
49. Hayward: 2020 trade, SnT or 2021 FA
48. Dragic: I think he stays in Miami 99,99 %. I would bring him for MLE, but he will certainly get more. Dallas is not there yet to overpay a vet as final piece of the puzzle
47. Van Vleet: His fit next to Doncic is intriguing, but I think he is overpayed at 20 per
46. Sabonis: no way and bad fit
45. Rose: I think he could be had relatively cheaply in 2020 or as FA in 2021. I don't think he is a particularly good fit and we have back up PG (Brunson)
44. DeRozan: same as Aldridge
43. Fox: no way
42. Green: we could get him, if he is traded to a tanking team. He is in same category as DeRozan or Aldridge for me
41. Gallo: possible SnT, questionable fit due to his lack of defense. Interesting as scoring punch from the bench. 
40. McCullom: no way (Portland would demand way too much)
39. Lopez: no way and bad fit
38. Ingram: no way
37. Zion: no way
36. Trae: no way
35. Westbrook: Houston can have him
34. KP
33. Klay: no way
32. Brown: no way
31. Ja Morant: no way
30. Siakam: no way
29. Irving: no way and no thank you
28. Draymond: no way (I would run away if they would be shopping him - a signal he is done)
27. Mitchell: no way
26. Booker: no way
25. Beal: no way
24. Lowry: Would be a great fit, but I doubt it is worth trading for him. Possible as FA in 2021
23. Middleton: no way (if Giannis leaves, a trade might be possible - he would be a good fit)
22. Kemba: no way
21. KAT: no way
20. Jrue: might be traded, but seems too expensive. Possible as 2021 FA
19. Jamal Murray: no way
18. Simmons: no way
17. Adebayo: no way
16. Gobert: possible trade or 2021 FA (I think he is a bad fit)
15. George: we don't have the pieces for a trade, might be FA in 2021
14. Tatum: no way
13. CP3: too expensive for us at this point (unless SnT for Lee in excess of 20 mil would be accepted...)
12. Embiid: no way (even if they trade him, we don't have the ammo)
11. Butler: no way
10. Lillard: no way
9. Jokic: no way
8. Doncic
7. Davis: no way
6. Curry: no way
5. Durant: no way
4. James: no way
3. Kawhi: might be FA in 2021
2. Harden: no way
1. Giannis: 2021 FA


So if we exclude the "no ways one", we can split theoretically available ones into following groups.

Possible 2021 FA: Oladipo, Hayward, DeRozan, Aldridge, Lowry, Green, JRue (PO), Gobert, George (PO), Kawhi (PO), Giannis, Tucker, Rose
Possible 2020 FA: VanVleet, Hayward (PO), DeRozan (PO), Gallo
Realistically available by trade: Harris, Tucker, Hayward, Rose, DeRozan, Aldridge, Lowry, JRue, Gobert
Might be available by trade if other things happen: Covington, Green

Great work. And considering the smoke signals of the Mavs wanting to move up in the draft, and being fine taking on big salary if its for a star, there are only 2 teams that fit that. Spurs, and Celtics. Maybe the Mavs are trying to grab either Hayward, DeRozan, or Aldridge. I'm for any one of them as a 1 year trial.

Looking at 2021 FA. Personally, I would strike out the centers, so Gobert and Aldridge are out for me. Lowry, Green and Tucker will be old in 2021, so I am not interested in anything long term. I don't see Rose as equal to other options here, I am surprised they have him so high on their board. DeRozan is meh. This leaves: Hayward, Oladipo and Giannis plus the three PO JRue, George and Kawhi. I would say JRue will be traded for sure, if NOLA thinks he might excercise his PO. Kawhi will stay in LA for sure imho. I can see a slight chance George is traded out of LA and he might become available. So realistically, Giannis is really the only real star in 2021. Perhaps Oladipo, if he returns to 17/18 form. Hayward will be 31 already, so any longterm high contract is a risk. Please mind there will be a lot of cap space to spend around in the league. 

Assuming THJ opts in, I don't see it as realistic for Mavs to create cap space. SnT is an option. I wouldn't do it for DeRozan, and I would do it for Gallo only, if he is price is max 12 per and even at that I would be looking to dump Wright in the process and not any of the valuable pieces. So, a long shot. I don't think Toronto would accept a SnT for Fred from us (they don't want long term salary and have enough role players, THJ for FVV is not really huge upgrade for us). So this leaves Hayward.

Out of the available trades: Rose, DeRozan, Aldridge, Lowry and Tucker I am intersted only as trade where we dump some of our long term salary, so purely one season moves. JRue I would love but we probably don't have the assets. This leaves expiring Hayward and Harris.

Based on all this - Harris salary is a problem only, if we go after Giannis. Otherwise, the only realisitic dillema is between having him, Oladipo or Hayward (if we are after this level of guys). 

The alternative is, that we look to upgrade our tier 5 (or lower) guys for tier 4 level. Reddick, Joe Harris, Lue Williams, Harrell, Beverly, Dinwiddie, Bledsoe, Conley, Turner and OPJ are some of the names in that tier, that might be available.

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(10-31-2020, 01:27 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe the Mavs are trying to grab either Hayward, DeRozan, or Aldridge. I'm for any one of them as a 1 year trial.

The problem - I don't see why Boston or SA would trade us their pick if we trade for those guys. They are expiring anyway and not bad palyers. It makes more sense for them to use them for their last season than pay assets to dump them. Even theoretically, if you trade Kleber and Curry for DeRozan and pick swap - is it really worth it? 

Wall would fit that description, but I wouldn't touch him even if I had  a remote controller.

If we want to trade up #18+#31 or (if we really, really, really like the guy) 2025 FRP are the best assets we have to achieve that.

Of those three Hayward makes the most sense by a good margin

(10-31-2020, 01:39 PM)Mapka Wrote: [ -> ]
Better POV would be to look how much of an overpay he is every season and if the compensation is worth the missed opportunity's.

omahen

Based on all this - Harris salary is a problem only, if we go after Giannis. Otherwise, the only realisitic dillema is between having him, Oladipo or Hayward (if we are after this level of guys). 

Nice work on all that Omahen.  I'd probably Add Gallo to the list you've arrived at.  I included Mapka's post because you are essentially answering him.  Once you cross above the cap (and certainly when get into paying taxes), there really isn't an opportunity being missed because of an over-pay.  You have shown that the "opportunity" in 2021 is illusory, so wh wait a year.   Don't get me wrong.  Harris isn't worth what he's making and fair pay is always better than over-pay.  But, the harm of adding Tobias is mainly to Cuban's wallet.  Not to future opportunities.

I like Gallo at the right price (dollars and outgoing players) maybe a little better than the Tobi proposal.  But, I don't know if OKC will accept "my" proposal.  If I can talk THJ into opting in before the draft, I'm shifting toward Korkmaz and #21 in this draft rather than a 2021 second.  Get that done (this was after-all a Philly website proposal...we get to counter), and I get even more interested.  

I've got more draft capital (#21 in 2020), I got a good third starter in Tobi, I got a replacement level guy in Korkmaz who would probably fit well here, I'm off the Powell and Wright salaries and I didn't have to give up Maxi, Curry, Brunson or WCS (essentially my bench).  I'm in on a deal like this and use the MLE, Jackson/18 and try to combine 18 and 21 into a lottery pick.

I remember a few years ago posting hypothetical trade ideas for Detroit's Tobias Harris. A couple guys who I see on the previous page told me he's just "another guy" and that the real catch from DET was Stanley Johnson.

Point being, I loved Tobias Harris before it was cool. And now I want nothing to do with his garbage contract that runs another 3 years. He'd be a nice fit at PF but that's way too much money tied up on non-all star players (this includes KP btw). Tobias is not a good defender either; it's just more offense and ignoring the Mavs' most glaring weakness.

(10-31-2020, 02:23 PM)Fuerza1 Wrote: [ -> ]Tobias is not a good defender either

But he's not a bad defender either. He is probably close to defense neutral.

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(10-31-2020, 01:52 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]Of those three Hayward makes the most sense by a good margin

The more I think about it, the more I do think the smoke around Hayward this offseason is probably connected to the Mavs.

Harris is one of those guys you trade for when you have no flexibility left and it’s all about how deep Cubans pockets are. Right now hes too overpaid to make a move unless you got something else outlandishly expensive lined up. I think were a few seasons away from that though.

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Btw: how about Yogi? Smallish guard, defends well, good shooter, can playmake a bit but doesnt need the ball much.

Would make sense Imo as a cheap guard-addition.