(10-19-2020, 12:02 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]I think for sure the Bucks can make 1 or 2 impact moves at a minimum. Way too early to count them out. A CP3 move would be really big for them honestly and they have other options as well.
The thing is, I don't think CP3 puts them over the top. Paul had an incredible year last year. He raised the floor of a ragtag Thunder team and led them to the playoffs being the lone star. He was healthy for the first time in forever.
And yet, once CP3 returned to the playoffs, he couldn't make the right play to close out the Rockets. They had several chances in game 7, and Paul either missed, turned it over, or just wasn't even involved in the play.
And you're telling me thats the savior for the Bucks? The problem with MIL is that Giannis is too one dimensional to be the engine of their offense in the playoffs. He's a transition monster and just mows down anyone in his path to the rim. In the playoffs, the Raptors and now the Heat showed that if you take away Giannis' drives, he can't create. How does Paul fix that issue?
And does MIL want to take the chance on 35 year old CP3 to be healthy and suddenly become clutch in the playoffs in their last year to prove it to Giannis?
(10-19-2020, 11:43 AM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ] (10-19-2020, 10:36 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/tim_cato/status/1318206885347102720
Ok Cato, you're out of you're depth.
To be fair, he does repeatedly say his opinion makes no sense, and is borderline treasonous. But even still. His main justification of why he doesn't want Giannis on the Mavs is that they'd be boring...(in that it'd be too easy to win).
Haven't read the article but I sort of get the premise. I still think that team isn't a guaranteed championship team by any stretch, though they would be a for sure title contender. You have Luka who is unproven and Giannis who hasn't been able to get to the Finals + KP who's injured.
I don't think this would have been anything like say if Dirk somehow got LeBron in his prime. Championships that followed would have been mostly credited to LeBron not Dirk. As it is, Dirk gets full credit for his one championship.
With Luka I think Giannis is enough of a wildcard (as dominant as he is) I don't think it would negatively affect either of their legacies in any kind of negative way. And that team would be awesome and not boring in the slightest.
Imagining a Luka, Giannis PnR...Budenholzer didn't do much PnR w/Giannis for some reason. I expect that to change with a new coach. Mavs obv run a lot of PnR. Luka & KP didn't do much PnR initially to all of our surprise but then later in the season we saw a lot more and I thought it was awesome. Giannis would be such a threat as a roll-man. Our offense would score 150 points a game.
(10-19-2020, 12:09 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ] (10-19-2020, 12:02 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]I think for sure the Bucks can make 1 or 2 impact moves at a minimum. Way too early to count them out. A CP3 move would be really big for them honestly and they have other options as well.
The thing is, I don't think CP3 puts them over the top. Paul had an incredible year last year. He raised the floor of a ragtag Thunder team and led them to the playoffs being the lone star. He was healthy for the first time in forever.
And yet, once CP3 returned to the playoffs, he couldn't make the right play to close out the Rockets. They had several chances in game 7, and Paul either missed, turned it over, or just wasn't even involved in the play.
And you're telling me thats the savior for the Bucks? The problem with MIL is that Giannis is too one dimensional to be the engine of their offense in the playoffs. He's a transition monster and just mows down anyone in his path to the rim. In the playoffs, the Raptors and now the Heat showed that if you take away Giannis' drives, he can't create. How does Paul fix that issue?
And does MIL want to take the chance on 35 year old CP3 to be healthy and suddenly become clutch in the playoffs in their last year to prove it to Giannis?
I think CP3 gives them something similar to what Kidd gave the Mavs way back when. Right now they have Bledsoe who is miscast really as a PG. Giannis initiates a lot of their offense which is a problem in the playoffs. Good teams know how to counter Giannis with 4 guys standing at the 3 point line. I think Bud being out is a good change, they need someone who can change up their offense. CP3 would be great for running their offense. He does so many things that just don't show up on the stat sheet, he is up there with LeBron in terms of BBIQ. I think it would be a perfect situation.
And for the Bucks they wouldn't be giving up that much (bc they don't have much to give). They aren't going to give up Middleton. Their issue would be outbidding other offers from the Sixers, Knicks or other teams who might want CP3. I really do think CP3 gets them to that next level.
(10-19-2020, 11:48 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]Focusing on his 19 games this season post injury is like evaluating KP based on his performance in first 30 games or so this season. I guess you were devastated Mavs paid 2 first round picks, former #9 pick and took some bad money for him. Not to mention he really only had half of a good season before that.
In KP's first 19 games back from injury:
- He shot 42% on FGs and 35% on 3s (34% on catch and shoot).
Dipo's first 19 games back from injury:
- He shot 39% on FGs and 31% on 3s (27.5% on catch and shoot).
I was not devastated by the trade for KP. The Mavs got the three best players (I would take KP/THJ/Burke over DSJ/Matthews/DAJ all day long, everyday for the rest of my life) and only had to give up two drafts picks ('21 and '23 which will likely be in the 20s). KP was indeed a risk, but from my standpoint not a huge risk because the fit with Luka is obvious (the risk was/is only health related).
On the other hand the fit of Dipo and Luka is NOT obvious especially when Dipo did not mesh well with Brogdon (IND was +1.9 for the year but Brog+Dipo was -4.9!).
Also, KP's career PER is 18.8....Dipo is 16.5. KP was a better and more proven (though younger) player. That youth of KP was part of the upside. Dipo is a 28 year old going on 29 who doesn't have any "unrealized upside" ahead of him.
Finally, comparing THJ to Dipo we have to note that Dipo has played ON BALL for most of his career while THJ is an OFF BALL spot up shooter. THJ is a known GOOD fit with Luka. And once more, the fit of Luka and Dipo is risky at best. THJ just needs to be the 14-15 PER, spot up shooter to work in DAL, he doesn't need to do anything else.
NOTE: I think it is "possible" that Dipo will have a great career ahead of him. I also think it is "possible" that he would fit well with Luka. But I think those possibilities are small and together even smaller. I consider trading for him to be VERY high risk.
My offseason wishlist:
1. Jrue
2. Dipo
3. Schroder
Jrue is the hardest to get, least realistic. Schroder is very gettable and Dipo falls somewhere in the middle. I think Dipo has the most-upside and most risk but I would be very happy with any of these 3.
(10-19-2020, 01:34 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]My offseason wishlist:
1. Jrue
2. Dipo
3. Schroder
Jrue is the hardest to get, least realistic. Schroder is very gettable and Dipo falls somewhere in the middle. I think Dipo has the most-upside and most risk but I would be very happy with any of these 3.
LOL we aren't getting Jrue because 1) we binarily don't have the assets to get him regardless unless we include KP, which is a deal I'm not making unless we're also getting Ingram or something like that, and 2) even if the Pels would take our pupu platter, there are at least ten teams who want him as badly and could offer more than we could.
I'm with Kamm on Dipo. As I said before to no fanfare from anyone else, we don't need a guy like Dipo on a contract year who needs the ball in his hands and is going to rack up double-digit steals per game against his own future HOF point guard, thus nuking the locker room and this team's growth. We need that rare bird of a player who can create his own shot while being okay with Luka having the ball in his hands a bare skull minimum of 75% of the time they're on the floor together.
Mark my words - if we flush our #18 down the toilet on Dipo, we will be waiving him two months into the season. I freaking guarantee that, because Luka will be screaming "He goes or I go!" in Donnie's face. Whom would you rather have, damaged Dipo, or demigod Doncic?
Schroder is at the top of my get-list for this year, along with OPJ. Grant would be, but he screws up '21, which the Mavs tragically won't do. Greek Freak or bust, and very likely bust. Hope the consolation prize is good.
(10-19-2020, 02:00 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ] (10-19-2020, 01:53 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]Mark my words - if we flush our #18 down the toilet on Dipo, we will be waiving him two months into the season. I freaking guarantee that, because Luka will be screaming "He goes or I go!" in Donnie's face.
![[Image: giphy.gif]](https://media.giphy.com/media/WpOJ5oyhiDkZUdtnyH/giphy.gif)
Glad I entertained you, but am I really wrong?
Victor Oladipo to the Mavs - the 2020s version of Toni Braxton, except this is a basketball problem.
I guess we are just going to pretend Oadipo's PER wasn't 23.12 in his breakout year before his injury?
(10-19-2020, 01:01 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]THJ just needs to be the 14-15 PER, spot up shooter to work in DAL, he doesn't need to do anything else.
Nope. The shooting guard next to Luka shoot be able to play defense and THJ does not. We also need another creator on any spot. So while Oladipo is perhaps a bit worse shooter, he is far better creator and defender. We have enough shooting on all other rotation spots. And again, it is not like Dipo is a bad shooter.
(10-19-2020, 01:01 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]I consider trading for him to be VERY high risk.
Again, I don't agree. If the price is THJ (or another couple of role players) and #18, I think it is very much worth the risk. Worst case, Dipo is gone next season and Mavs have their max cap space to play with - THJ and role players are gone in any case. Even if Dipo doesn't improve his last season performance, he is still bringing around THJ level value, looking at the overall package, not just spot up shooting.
(10-19-2020, 01:01 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]On the other hand the fit of Dipo and Luka is NOT obvious especially when Dipo did not mesh well with Brogdon (IND was +1.9 for the year but Brog+Dipo was -4.9!)
First, you are building your argument on the 19 games Dipo was bad overall and second, you are building on a very small sample. Why not using the 2017-18 season before injury? Dipo was +8,7 with Collison. Or season before that? Oladipo was +9,2 with Westbrook.
(10-19-2020, 01:01 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]He shot 39% on FGs and 31% on 3s (27.5% on catch and shoot).
He shot 40 % on catch and shoot 3 pointers last two seasons before the injury, so again lets please not focus on small sample post injury 19 games.
(10-19-2020, 01:01 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Finally, comparing THJ to Dipo we have to note that Dipo has played ON BALL for most of his career while THJ is an OFF BALL spot up shooter.
Actually not. THJ was playing on ball a lot, which is why he was so bad before Dallas. He sucks playing on ball. On the other hand, Mavs need and are looking for another player who can create - which means he will play on ball too. Luka never had a problem playing with on ball guys (Dragic in the national team and Llull in Madrid).
It is also not true Dipo played most of his career on ball. He was playing next to Westbrook and his usage percentage was in the low twenties. Exactly where THJ usage percentage was the last season.
(10-19-2020, 02:04 PM)IamDougieFresh Wrote: [ -> ]I guess we are just going to pretend Oadipo's PER wasn't 23.12 in his breakout year before his injury?
Better that than pretending his broken ass fits this team now.
Omahen, we get it. You think the 18th pick is garbage. It is not garbage if Haliburton, Vassell, Achiuwa, Smith, S. Bey, Hampton, Terry, Maxey, or even possibly Green falls to it, because each one of those players would fit better here than Victor Freaking Oladipo. Edit: I'll give you this: if Toppin falls to 18 and we draft him, I will have rather had Dipo.
(10-19-2020, 01:53 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]Schroder is at the top of my get-list for this year
You really are a drama queen. You don't like Dipo because he would take ball from Luka, but you don't have a problem with Schroeder doing exactly the same.
Things are getting chippy around here. I hope there's some actual news soon to keep us from going full on Lord of the Flies.
(10-19-2020, 02:05 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ] (10-19-2020, 02:04 PM)IamDougieFresh Wrote: [ -> ]I guess we are just going to pretend Oadipo's PER wasn't 23.12 in his breakout year before his injury?
Better that than pretending his broken ass fits this team now.
Omahen, we get it. You think the 18th pick is garbage. It is not garbage if Haliburton, Vassell, Achiuwa, Smith, S. Bey, Hampton, Terry, Maxey, or even possibly Green falls to it, because each one of those players would fit better here than Victor Freaking Oladipo.
Wow...8 future allstars and most of them won´t be selected with a top 10 pick. Seriously...It is unlikely that even one of them ever reaches VO level. The only reason why Oladipo is a questionable pickup is his injury and contract situation. Both did not prevent the Mavs from trading for KP.
Personally I would like to keep the pick but some people never learn. They hype up a prospect and two years later they demand that the same guy should be traded because he did not live up to the crazy high expectations.
(10-19-2020, 02:05 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]Omahen, we get it. You think the 18th pick is garbage.
I will just quote you
(10-19-2020, 01:53 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]even if the Pels would take our pupu platter
So when speaking about Jrue, our pick (and other assets) are a pu pu platter. But when speaking about a player we could perhaps get, than it is national treasure. It is you who doesn't get it. #18 is a 47 % chance to become a ROTATION (not all star) player. If you are in a win now mode looking for starter upgrades it is not #18 picks you are counting on.
(10-19-2020, 02:15 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ] (10-19-2020, 01:53 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]Schroder is at the top of my get-list for this year
You really are a drama queen. You don't like Dipo because he would take ball from Luka, but you don't have a problem with Schroeder doing exactly the same.
Like he did from CP3 and SGA? Hmmm...
We need a guy who can create his own shot and can play on-ball as well as off-ball. We all agree on that. That's why Jrue is the platonic ideal of what we're looking for. I have absolutely zero trust in Dipo to defer to Luka when on the floor. Not only has he shown a monolithic propensity not to do that in recent years, but this is a prove-it contract year for him. I have at least some trust that Schroder could work, because it worked playing alongside two other point guards.
The elephant in the room here is that, as you noted, Luka was able to play off-ball in the past. He has not shown that in the NBA, and the offense is by far the most effective going through him. We want to ease the burden on him, not nerf him. Something we have not discussed in this whole debate is that, as important as it is to ease the burden on Luka, you really don't want him playing off ball if he can't get his 3p% above 35%, and preferably far higher. By that standard, an argument could be made that even Jrue would be a bad idea this year.
(10-19-2020, 02:21 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ] (10-19-2020, 02:05 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ] (10-19-2020, 02:04 PM)IamDougieFresh Wrote: [ -> ]I guess we are just going to pretend Oadipo's PER wasn't 23.12 in his breakout year before his injury?
Better that than pretending his broken ass fits this team now.
Omahen, we get it. You think the 18th pick is garbage. It is not garbage if Haliburton, Vassell, Achiuwa, Smith, S. Bey, Hampton, Terry, Maxey, or even possibly Green falls to it, because each one of those players would fit better here than Victor Freaking Oladipo.
Wow...8 future allstars and most of them won´t be selected with a top 10 pick. Seriously...It is unlikely that even one of them ever reaches VO level. The only reason why Oladipo is a questionable pickup is his injury and contract situation. Both did not prevent the Mavs from trading for KP.
Personally I would like to keep the pick but some people never learn. They hype up a prospect and two years later they demand that the same guy should be traded because he did not live up to the crazy high expectations.
I didn't say a single one of those guys is a future All-Star. I said they fit better than Oladipo.
I'll say this. Those guys have as much of a chance of being an All-Star as Dipo has of getting back there again given what we've seen. Take that statement the other way before you criticize it the principal way. And the statement is triply true of Dipo the 2020-21 Maverick versus those eight players' whole careers.
(10-19-2020, 02:23 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ] (10-19-2020, 02:05 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]Omahen, we get it. You think the 18th pick is garbage.
I will just quote you
(10-19-2020, 01:53 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]even if the Pels would take our pupu platter
So when speaking about Jrue, our pick (and other assets) are a pu pu platter. But when speaking about a player we could perhaps get, than it is national treasure. It is you who doesn't get it. #18 is a 47 % chance to become a ROTATION (not all star) player. If you are in a win now mode looking for starter upgrades it is not #18 picks you are counting on.
Our pick is a pupu platter for Jrue because he is a highly-coveted commodity whom we have no evidence that the Pels want to trade him, and many other teams want his services. 18 is not a national treasure, but I value it far more than Victor Oladipo, because in a vacuum, it appears that there's very little chance of his becoming the player he once was, and on top of that he gives the strong impression of being a malcontent, not likely to re-sign here unless we overpay him (let the Knicks do that), and an atrocious fit next to Luka.
Apparently Windhorst proposed this trade on a podcast
Oladipo for Wright, Jackson, Boban, 18, 31
(10-19-2020, 02:24 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]Like he did from CP3 and SGA? Hmmm...
Like Dipo didn't play off ball next to Westbrook. You are silly in your black and white world arguments. KP, who is really bad at creating, had a usage rate at a level Dipo did in his top season in Indiana. Mavs were targeting Kemba who is at least same level on ball player as Dipo.
(10-19-2020, 02:34 PM)IamDougieFresh Wrote: [ -> ]Apparently Windhorst proposed this trade on a podcast
Oladipo for Wright, Jackson, Boban, 18, 31
I strongly dislike that trade, but I don't abominate it. I think it's a bad look to get rid of Boban given his importance to Luka, especially given that JJB isn't going to be back. But getting out from under Wright, and having two big contracts expiring in 2021, that could be valuable. It beats the living turd out of THJ and 18 for Dipo, which I think is pretty bad for the Mavs.
(10-19-2020, 02:35 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ] (10-19-2020, 02:24 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]Like he did from CP3 and SGA? Hmmm...
Like Dipo didn't play off ball next to Westbrook. You are silly in your black and white world arguments. KP, who is really bad at creating, had a usage rate at a level Dipo did in his top season in Indiana. Mavs were targeting Kemba who is at least same level on ball player as Dipo.
That was three seasons ago. Our argument is that Oladipo has changed. And he's in a contract year this year.
(10-19-2020, 02:34 PM)IamDougieFresh Wrote: [ -> ]Apparently Windhorst proposed this trade on a podcast
Oladipo for Wright, Jackson, Boban, 18, 31
It wasn't Windhorst, it was Kevin Pelton, I think, but Windhorst liked it. The other version they discussed was THJ, 18, 31.
I'd probably do it, as it allows the Mavs to keep Dwight Powell, the best player in the league.