I would definitely approach a Lavine trade in terms of THJ not being outgoing. In other words, THJ either expires in '21, or perhaps he gets traded after opting in for another player who is expiring. In any event, there is still somehow a pathway to GA money in '21 if need be, or, if he doesn't want to come here, you can still get a very good fourth piece for your team.
Of course, if THJ isn't traded right away, that means he is the starting 3. Woof. We better be able to score 170 in regulation, 'cause we'll be giving up 150 at least.
My point is, I tend to prefer the Lavine idea better than most of the other "3rd guy" rumors we've heard because his contract extends longer - i.e., he's not a stopgap to help us audition our team for Giannis or others in '21 - but I still think the best-case scenario is that Giannis is the cherry on top of a three-man core, not a Luka-KP core.
(11-13-2020, 04:54 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Chi has so many pieces that were so horribly used (and injured) I really like most trades with them. I just think they are such a great trade partner for us right now.
![[Image: tenor.gif]](https://media1.tenor.com/images/0f5cdbb2f5c00bcb258f78de391b2393/tenor.gif)
(11-13-2020, 05:00 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]There's no version of the deal (that Chicago agrees to) that includes Powell.
There's no version that doesn't include BOTH #18 and #31, along with at least two and up to ALL of DFS, Kleber, Curry and Brunson.
I see what you're saying. I think a realistic deal is somewhere in-between from my low ball and your overpay.
It probably does take some deal like Seth and Maxi to get it done. I only included Powell because Chicago's own fan writers included him in a potential deal. Which tells me that 1) they are hurting for any bigman. 2) Powell's value, even after his injury, isn't that non-existent.
I think Lavine is worth 18. And might even be worth 31 too. OPJ has been beaten to death about his potential fit and upside. I guess another way to think about it would be is Lavine/OPJ/Milsap better than Maxi/Seth/18+31? Lavine>Seth. OPJ is that defensive wing we all want one of those picks to be (even if the picks carry more long-term value). Milsap and Maxi are a push at worst. Also allows us to try and get creative with THJ in some deals.
So even on the high end, I'd do that deal. Mostly because the ability to create max space is still easier afterwards.
(11-13-2020, 05:10 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ] (11-13-2020, 05:00 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]There's no version of the deal (that Chicago agrees to) that includes Powell.
There's no version that doesn't include BOTH #18 and #31, along with at least two and up to ALL of DFS, Kleber, Curry and Brunson.
I see what you're saying. I think a realistic deal is somewhere in-between from my low ball and your overpay.
It probably does take some deal like Seth and Maxi to get it done. I only included Powell because Chicago's own fan writers included him in a potential deal. Which tells me that 1) they are hurting for any bigman. 2) Powell's value, even after his injury, isn't that non-existent.
I think Lavine is worth 18. And might even be worth 31 too. OPJ has been beaten to death about his potential fit and upside. I guess another way to think about it would be is Lavine/OPJ/Milsap better than Maxi/Seth/18+31? Lavine>Seth. OPJ is that defensive wing we all want one of those picks to be (even if the picks carry more long-term value). Milsap and Maxi are a push at worst. Also allows us to try and get creative with THJ in some deals.
So even on the high end, I'd do that deal. Mostly because the ability to create max space is still easier afterwards.
Moneywise, we can't get both Lavine and OPJ without THJ being included, which would normally mean no draft picks. It would have to be two separate deals, with the OPJ/THJ portion being after the draft. I tend to think that Silver would look over his glasses down his nose at that.
(11-13-2020, 05:10 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]I think Lavine is worth 18. And might even be worth 31 too. OPJ has been beaten to death about his potential fit and upside. I guess another way to think about it would be is Lavine/OPJ/Milsap better than Maxi/Seth/18+31? Lavine>Seth. OPJ is that defensive wing we all want one of those picks to be (even if the picks carry more long-term value). Milsap and Maxi are a push at worst. Also allows us to try and get creative with THJ in some deals.
Do me a favor, and put together a deal that includes BOTH LaVine and OPJ that is cap legal and show it here (if you can do so with a straight face). There is no possible way Chicago would take BOTH Wright and Powell back for the privilege of sending the face of their franchise to Dallas. OPJ probably has significant value, himself, just as an expiring contract, and as we've seen around here, lots of people think he's valuable on the court, too.
Like, I would bet my LIFE that a deal with both of them going to Dallas would never happen. My LIFE.
That writer was wrong about the Bulls. They don't need a big man. They have really high picks in Markannen and Carter, Jr. I'm not sure they're completely happy with either or both, but they're certainly not lusting over Powell as the solution to anything.
Love him or hate him, LaVine is the face of their franchise. Can you imagine how much hate they're going to get from their fan base if they trade him? I honestly don't know that #18+#31 is enough draft capital to get it done. They'd basically be blowing up their team.
(11-13-2020, 05:19 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ] (11-13-2020, 05:10 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]I think Lavine is worth 18. And might even be worth 31 too. OPJ has been beaten to death about his potential fit and upside. I guess another way to think about it would be is Lavine/OPJ/Milsap better than Maxi/Seth/18+31? Lavine>Seth. OPJ is that defensive wing we all want one of those picks to be (even if the picks carry more long-term value). Milsap and Maxi are a push at worst. Also allows us to try and get creative with THJ in some deals.
Do me a favor, and put together a deal that includes BOTH LaVine and OPJ that is cap legal and show it here (if you can do so with a straight face). There is no possible way Chicago would take BOTH Wright and Powell back for the privilege of sending the face of their franchise to Dallas. OPJ probably has significant value, himself, just as an expiring contract, and as we've seen around here, lots of people think he's valuable on the court, too.
Like, I would bet my LIFE that a deal with both of them going to Dallas would never happen. My LIFE.
That writer was wrong about the Bulls. They don't need a big man. They have really high picks in Markannen and Carter, Jr. I'm not sure they're completely happy with either or both, but they're certainly not lusting over Powell as the solution to anything.
Love him or hate him, LaVine is the face of their franchise. Can you imagine how much hate they're going to get from their fan base if they trade him? I honestly don't know that #18+#31 is enough draft capital to get it done. They'd basically be blowing up their team.
Sounds like there's plenty of the fanbase who are ready to move on from him. And is "blowing up the team" really a thing when you're talking about a mid-level lottery team?
Dirk, Nash and Finley
Luka, KP and Lavine
(11-13-2020, 05:19 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Do me a favor, and put together a deal that includes BOTH LaVine and OPJ that is cap legal and show it here (if you can do so with a straight face).
With no straight face, the only real cap legal trade would be Lavine+OPJ for THJ+(Maxi or Powell)+(Wright or Curry)+Brunson+Jackson+plus our 2 picks.
The only real hangup, and I was waiting on Dan to chime in (but Scott was already quick enough to point out!), is that both THJ and OPJ have player options that need to be decided on before any trade can occur. And the NBA hasn't really been open on what date they need to be decided with some writers saying 3 days before the draft, and other saying the 2 days after the draft.
IF we assume the option dates are after the draft, the Mavs could theoretically split it up into 2 trades. The first on draft night for Lavine where we send Brunson+Jackson+2 picks+and Wright. Then finalize it with THJ+(Maxi or Powell) for OPJ.
In any case its just speculation. I do think you're overstating how much Chicago loves Lavine. There were multiple rumors that he wanted out because of Boylen alone and that Chicago was shopping Lavine throughout the season. I do think it'd take a good amount to get him, but by no means is Lavine apart of some upper class of asset that will cost a team everything like Beal.
Look, I don't want to argue all day about it, especially since I would do the deal, myself.
I just think if such a deal actually happened, the real-life terms would be so, so much less favorable for the Mavs than what you guys are envisioning. Assume EVERYTHING of value goes out the door, and something very undesirable might follow LaVine through it coming back.
This is Chicago's BEST PLAYER. This would be a BLOCKBUSTER. I think the dumbass Knicks have spoiled us with that KP deal, but it's not happening twice in two years.
(11-13-2020, 05:31 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]but it's not happening twice in two years.
![[Image: giphy.gif]](https://media.giphy.com/media/keuNoOuTb1D4A/giphy.gif)
(11-13-2020, 05:29 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]In any case its just speculation. I do think you're overstating how much Chicago loves Lavine. There were multiple rumors that he wanted out because of Boylen alone and that Chicago was shopping Lavine throughout the season. I do think it'd take a good amount to get him, but by no means is Lavine apart of some upper class of asset that will cost a team everything like Beal.
Agreed. Definitely not as hot of a commodity as Beal, and that's why the name was even leaked without people going crazy.
But, our opinion of what the player is worth doesn't dictate the cost, it only colors our opinion on whether to say "yes" or "no."
You might be right that I'm guessing too high on his trade value, but I promise you it's at least a little higher than you think right now.
Definitely disagree with the folks who are calling Lavine an empty stats guy.
Lavine reminds me of JET, though not necessarily in terms of playing style. JET was also the best player on a bad team. He came to Dallas with some bad habits, not conducive to winning. But he was a hard worker. Coachable. Talented. Tough.
Lavine strikes me as very similar. He's super talented and will clean up his game in the right situation.
Just looked at the Bulls' contracts. They're on the verge of 2021 cap room, themselves. Even better situated than Dallas, at a glance. Isn't it logical to assume that IF their plan is to draft a ball-handler (Ball or Haliburton rumored to them) and trade their best player (a ball handler who's one of the few on their roster with guaranteed money past this year) then maybe a key component to that plan is carving out as much space next summer as possible?
If they get a team to take Thadd Young back ($13.5 m, $14.2 m) in a deal for LaVine, then Thomas Satoransky is the ONLY significant salary ($10 m) they'd have on their books after this season. There are a few other contracts they have TEAM options for, but after looking, I'm pretty sure THIS is the driving force behind this rumor, if it's even serious. I'm not even sure the Mavs can give them what they're looking for, tbh.
(11-13-2020, 05:19 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Do me a favor, and put together a deal that includes BOTH LaVine and OPJ that is cap legal and show it here (if you can do so with a straight face). There is no possible way Chicago would take BOTH Wright and Powell back for the privilege of sending the face of their franchise to Dallas.
I think the way to do this is like Scott is saying. It's a 2 trade thing where (I'm thinking) THJ and Wright for OPJ is the second deal which I think is a good trade in and of itself. In the first trade on draft day to get LaVine, we would probably have to get a 3rd team involved to give up some draft capital and/or a good piece to acquire Lavine.
Someone that would value Kleber/Curry/DFS more than Chi would honestly. That team would be someone like LAC or LAL or Mil or Bos or even Phi who is trying to get finishing touches like those 3 are IMO. Something along this outline:
Chi out
LaVine/possibly Young/possibly Sato
Chi in
JB/maybe one of the 3/3rd team players/3rd team draft pick/18/31/possibly Mavs 2025 first/as many seconds as they want from the Mavs
3rd team out
some combination of picks and players
3rd team in
some or all of the role players, take their pick of Kleber/Curry/DFS/Sato/Young/possibly seconds from Dal
Dal out
JB/Curry/Kleber/DFS/JJ/18/31/possibly 2025 first/possibly as many seconds as Bulls and 3rd team wants
Dal in
LaVine/whatever players are left over that fit needs that are left from our outgoing (which are pretty big at that point)
We sign Millsap for the MLE and our roster could look like:
Luka/Burke (vet min)/corpse of JJB or vet min
LaVine/Sato/vet min or purchased second rounder
OPJ/Young/vet min
Millsap/WCS/vet min
KP/Powell/Boban
I think that would be a fun team to root (not route) for and they would definitely make the playoffs barring major injuries or setbacks. Lots of ball handling/creating and plenty of space-makers.
yall realize that Dallas and Denver are next to each other in alphabetical order right? some random guy in Australia messed up his click.
(11-13-2020, 05:55 PM)jesusshuttlesworth82 Wrote: [ -> ]yall realize that Dallas and Denver are next to each other in alphabetical order right? some random guy in Australia messed up his click.
![[Image: IdealEuphoricBlacklab-size_restricted.gif]](https://thumbs.gfycat.com/IdealEuphoricBlacklab-size_restricted.gif)
This totally redeems you for the "wingspan" issue the other day. Well done.
(11-13-2020, 03:34 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]Ya'll are really jumping the gun on Millsap lol.
![[Image: avatar_154.png?dateline=1602941147]](https://www.qabickcents.com/dallasbasketball/uploads/avatars/avatar_154.png?dateline=1602941147)
(11-13-2020, 05:55 PM)jesusshuttlesworth82 Wrote: [ -> ]yall realize that Dallas and Denver are next to each other in alphabetical order right? some random guy in Australia messed up his click.
Dang. That makes too much sense. You ruined my afternoon of speculation.
![[Image: giphy.gif]](https://media.giphy.com/media/SiM2OdSmWDgrEV5O7g/giphy.gif)