(11-05-2020, 08:03 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ] (11-05-2020, 07:26 AM)Mapka Wrote: [ -> ]Rose is clear starter
I am not sure about that. I think he is a 6th man. His defense is non existing
He is not a defender at all. I totally agree.
But he is a scorer and I just think we need some flat out scoring in our starting five.
Whenever Wright attacked the basket he looked fine and Burke didn't look great for no reason.
Can't be just Luka and KP.
(11-05-2020, 08:22 AM)Hypermav Wrote: [ -> ]interesting that he values DJJ so much more than Grant. Even saying Grant was an overrated player.
Dan, the 1 + 1 for Millsap, is that a Giannis killer in your opinion. I guess we would have to wait and see if we dumped Wright and others to make up for the Millsap salary going into 2021.
You pretty well answered your own question. I think the smarter way to do it would be to partially guarantee the second year. If he's worth $14mm, you give him $9.3mm with the MLE in year one and guarantee $4.5 the second year. Even that hurts 2021, but at least it is in your control and you can S/W the guarantee down to $1.5mm.
(11-05-2020, 08:21 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]If this would be a position we would be looking to spend MLE on, I certainly like some of the options. I don't really understand how DJJ falls into PF category with him being 6-6 at 210 pounds. I can't imagine him going defensively against strongest SF yet alone PF.
I've seen that other places and wondered the same thing. Jones is killer at the top of a zone. If you look at the defensive breakdowns at BBall Index, he mostly guards high usage primary creators of all sizes. That could be Kemba Walker one night and Kawhi Leonard the next. The positional breakdown is:
PG 23.1%
SG 26.8%
SF 14.5%
PF 23.5%
C 12.2%
(11-05-2020, 08:22 AM)Hypermav Wrote: [ -> ]interesting that he values DJJ so much more than Grant. Even saying Grant was an overrated player.
I am on record saying I think Grant is overrated and said I wouldn't pay a dollar over MLE for him. Just my opinion, though I admit he showed some flashes in the playoffs. I am just not convinced yet.
(11-05-2020, 08:21 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]I really like Saric and Hernagomez for MLE, but it might be some EU bias from my side 
I think Hernangomez is underrated and he could prove much better with consistent minutes.
Totally agree here. I think they present the best chance for value contracts and will likely be way better in DAL than they would be elsewhere.
(11-04-2020, 09:53 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]Interesting. Haven't had that issue happen to me. Sometimes only the link shows up for the tweet for me in light mode, but then again I'm in light mode 100% of the time.
Try going back to whatever you were originally on, and then restarting the browser. If not maybe delete your cookies? I honestly don't know just some general advice.
I installed DuckDuckGo (to give it a try) into my Chrome browser. I uninstalled same and it fixed the tweet issue. Thx
(11-05-2020, 02:23 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ] (11-04-2020, 09:39 PM)cjeter24 Wrote: [ -> ]So I'll bite on saying Jrue will cost too much to acquire. I don't think he will cost nearly as much as you think. Or frankly that he should in a given year.
Well, actually you proved through your speach that this is not true I agree - Mavs have a chance if Denver and Nets are out. Unfortunately, Jrue is exactly what Denver needs. Same could be said for Nets.
You say, he might not cost as much as we think. If the price comes down to THJ, Brunson and a pick, the amount of teams that can match this offer widens. Denver can match this without adding Porter. Nets have a ton of possibilities to match it. Clippers have Zubac and Shamet as very interesting young players with good rotation players like Beverly to sallary match. Unlike you I can totally see Wiggins+#2+2021 Minnesota pick deal (throw in Pascal if needed). Horford, Thyulle and a bunch of picks is another competitive offer.
I think Jrue will create an intense bidding war with the winner paying a treasure at the end of it.
(11-05-2020, 01:20 AM)Tyler Wrote: [ -> ]Indy gets cheaper versions of Turner and Oladipo
Wright being cheaper version of Oladipo is funny
I think Denver needs more than Jrue tbh. They straight up couldn't score enough when it mattered late at multiple times during playoffs. It required Jokic and Murray going nuts for them to win. Yeah their defense needs improving but they need offense more IMO. I think the defense aspect isn't just getting a lockdown guy.
The ability of other teams to beat our offer like Denver or Brooklyn is the same case in almost every trade. When you don't have assets... It's harder to make deals. And yet Mavs managed to make a deal like the KP trade. Yeah they ripped them off big time. But in general the market was much weaker than anyone here thought it would be. I find it often is for the big names. I'm saying that's going to be the case again here. How much is so? Idk. I think Mavs best offer is in the ballpark of what it will take to get Jrue is the point. NOT that the Mavs are going to get him. Mavs 100% make the most sense as a fit no doubt.
You miss the overall point still about why it's not likely those deals get done. MPJ is extremely expensive cost to give up for Jrue. Grant in a SNT? Why is Grant agreeing to go to New Orleans? Same for Harrell. Is that stuff possible? Sure. But highly unlikely. And the Clippers make 0 sense. Why are they trading a really good player for role guys? Is that possible? Sure. But it doesn't line up with any past trade of getting rid of an expiring really good player because you are in a rebuild and are concerned he leaves for nothing. No offense on the GS but I think you are absolutely nuts if you perceive Jrue's value that high. He's an above average offensive player and excellent defender. But not even an all star. #2 pick AND a future 1st? That's just not happening. Not to mention they already have 2 of the best guards in the game and they have no idea how that 3 guard system would work. 76ers are a complete wildcard. And that could be the team that pays up the most in the end. I don't think that ever creates a bidding war.
Again... I replied later saying I'm not sure the Mavs are willing to even give their best offer. Why? Because it will exhaust all remaining the assets have to make moves for the next few years. That's a very steep cost for an expiring guy. And an expiring guy who is now over 30. And regardless of Giannis... There is a nice crop of guards available next year in FA including Jrue himself. If you got another piece via trade and then signing a guard your team is going to be a way bigger threat in 2022 and beyond.
(11-05-2020, 10:43 AM)cjeter24 Wrote: [ -> ]I think Denver needs more than Jrue tbh. They straight up couldn't score enough when it mattered late at multiple times during playoffs. It required Jokic and Murray going nuts for them to win. Yeah their defense needs improving but they need offense more IMO. I think the defense aspect isn't just getting a lockdown guy.
I agree. But Jrue is a huge improvement over Harris on offensive end. He seemed totally lost to me.
(11-05-2020, 10:43 AM)cjeter24 Wrote: [ -> ]And the Clippers make 0 sense. Why are they trading a really good player for role guys?
Well, what else are meh picks and role players Mavs have to offer? At least Shamet and Zubac are proven role players or even starters. Young, able to grow with NO core.
(11-05-2020, 10:43 AM)cjeter24 Wrote: [ -> ]No offense on the GS but I think you are absolutely nuts if you perceive Jrue's value that high. He's an above average offensive player and excellent defender. But not even an all star. #2 pick AND a future 1st?
The offer includes dumping Wiggins which is necessary for a trade.
All I am trying to say is, I see no way Jrue will be cheap. NO are not New York. They will take time selling Jrue and offer him to everybody to create a bidding war.
This is what Zach Lowe has on Jrue (taken from random article, I didn't go look for the original):
[i]The bidding for Holiday and Beal figures to center on Denver, Golden State, and Brooklyn — and to some extent Atlanta, Miami, and Dallas. The Hawks might try nabbing Holiday using their No. 6 pick — which they would be open to trading for veteran help, per several sources — but I don’t see that alone getting it done. Would they attach one of their young wings?[/i]
I keep coming back to Tobias Harris as a use of THJ/Powell. Someone else can argue about what else would need to be sent back and forth in the deal, but since it would likely be a post draft trade, let’s just keep it at THJ/Powell and leave picks out of it (and players like Thybulle and Korkmaz for now). So, you have KP/WCS as your C’s and Harris/Maxi as your PF’s. BUT, you have up your starting SG.
Trade Jackson/18 for Kennard. Similar to THJ from 3 and gives a little more playmaking.
Do the DJJ FA signing.
Now, you have DJJ/DFS as your wing defenders and Kennard/Curry as your shooting wings and Luka/Brunson as your PG’s (Wright is still here as a 5th guard though he could also replace Jackson in the deal for Kennard).
I get the dislike for the Harris overpay, but when combined with other things, you suddenly look like a very complete team.
KP/WCS/Boban
Harris/Maxi
DFS/DJJ
Kennard/Curry
Luka/Brunson
Other than Curry, no one is old. You can keep this group together for quite a while.
https://www.peachtreehoops.com/2020/11/5...contention
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2916...-nba-execs
Zach Lowe on Mavs:
• A Luka Doncic-Antetokounmpo pairing would be a nightmare for the other 29 teams. Is Antetokounmpo willing to give up being the undisputed face of the franchise and lead ball handler -- to become a little more Anthony Davis, and a little less LeBron? Few know. But the Mavericks are slated to have cap room and hold a bunch of tradable role players should they need to open more.
Other teams report the Mavs are already chasing that elusive "third star" in trade talks. I'm sure that is true to some degree. Acquire a very good player now, and you can trade that player -- or Kristaps Porzingis -- for Antetokounmpo in the offseason if Antetokounmpo picks Dallas. But I'm skeptical the Mavs will find anyone now via trade who fits that description.
• Several rival executives have pitched the Mavs as a trade destination for Rudy Gobert, who is eligible for a supermax. I get the thinking -- a rim-running center to stabilize Dallas' shaky defense -- but I can't get there. Devoting $65 million combined to Gobert and Porzingis when the latter needs to play a good chunk at center is not optimal.
And let's say the Mavs snare Gobert and then need some means of acquiring Antetokounmpo via sign-and-trade. Do the rebuilding Bucks want Gobert? They would almost certainly prefer Porzingis, but that leaves Dallas figuring out how to fit Antetokounmpo and Gobert on offense -- or finding a third team for him. (There's also the small matter of whether Dallas has much Utah would want.)
• Would Oladipo work for Dallas -- a player who can help this year's Mavs without compromising cap space? Dallas holds the No. 18 pick and all those very useful role guys on friendly contracts.
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/3022...-offseason
Zach Lowe seems to have same opinion about Mavs chances of getting Jrue:
I don't see a Dallas trade that is worth New Orleans' while unless interest overall is tepid, at which point the Pelicans might as well keep Holiday.
More Gobert talk. Interesting. I assume that type of chatter is based on real things the execs are hearing.
Personally I think Lowe kinda misses the point with his note that Milwaukee might prefer KP to Gobert in a S&T for Giannis in '21. If it gets to that point, Milwaukee has already lost its bargaining power and will be scrambling to not be left holding the bag. They could do a lot worse than replacing one young DPOY with another, and Gobert is also the type of high-end asset they could easily flip to a team like Boston.
Thinking in terms of assets instead of powder, I'm intrigued by Gobert for sure.
(11-05-2020, 10:57 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ] (11-05-2020, 10:43 AM)cjeter24 Wrote: [ -> ]I think Denver needs more than Jrue tbh. They straight up couldn't score enough when it mattered late at multiple times during playoffs. It required Jokic and Murray going nuts for them to win. Yeah their defense needs improving but they need offense more IMO. I think the defense aspect isn't just getting a lockdown guy.
I agree. But Jrue is a huge improvement over Harris on offensive end. He seemed totally lost to me.
(11-05-2020, 10:43 AM)cjeter24 Wrote: [ -> ]And the Clippers make 0 sense. Why are they trading a really good player for role guys?
Well, what else are meh picks and role players Mavs have to offer? At least Shamet and Zubac are proven role players or even starters. Young, able to grow with NO core.
(11-05-2020, 10:43 AM)cjeter24 Wrote: [ -> ]No offense on the GS but I think you are absolutely nuts if you perceive Jrue's value that high. He's an above average offensive player and excellent defender. But not even an all star. #2 pick AND a future 1st?
The offer includes dumping Wiggins which is necessary for a trade.
All I am trying to say is, I see no way Jrue will be cheap. NO are not New York. They will take time selling Jrue and offer him to everybody to create a bidding war.
This is what Zach Lowe has on Jrue (taken from random article, I didn't go look for the original):
[i]The bidding for Holiday and Beal figures to center on Denver, Golden State, and Brooklyn — and to some extent Atlanta, Miami, and Dallas. The Hawks might try nabbing Holiday using their No. 6 pick — which they would be open to trading for veteran help, per several sources — but I don’t see that alone getting it done. Would they attach one of their young wings?[/i]
Jrue is an improvement no doubt. But is he enough to pay that cost for Denver. Simply put I don't do that deal if I'm Denver. Actually if I'm Denver, I'm hanging tight until FA next year where I can just dump an expiring Harris with my assets and make moves in FA with my cap space.
You aren't thinking like the teams that are making the trades. Why get rid of Jrue for role guys? They don't know if he's leaving or not. He's made no inclination he will. So it has to be partially a fear he leaves and the desire to continue the rebuild regardless.
Pick 18, 30 and Brunson is a much better offer than the Clips can offer. Add in Curry or whoever and you have those good role players covered to.
Again think this out logically with GS. Why does GS take on Wiggins to get that Minny pick and then dump it AND their own pick to get rid of him? Why trade Russell and then trade for another combo guard? Your trade roundabout works out to be #2 pick and Russell for Holiday.
Brooklyn and Denver and possibly Philly can have the best offers for sure. Not disputing that. I just am skeptical they ever come.
I completely disagree with the idea pick 6 doesn't get it done for the Hawks. But I don't think they do that. Again expiring deal for a non all star for these premium assets?
I just don't see it but teams have made more stupid moves before. I think Holiday gets lumped into the Beal conversations the same way and they are a completely different class of player IMO. I do think anyone of the teams mentioned would do any of those moves to get Beal. It seems Washington continues to plan on keeping him for the time being.
Beal (or any other big name player that may came up on trade market in the next year) is another great argument why you shouldn't trade for Jrue if you are the Mavs. If the Mavs managed to hit big on pick 18 (or even moved up ) you now have a foundational piece of a trade to match these other much better offers. What if Brunson takes that next step up this year. I'm still convinced he eventually works his way into a damn good piece like a Kyle Lowry. You'd be cashing out early on that chip.
I just want to express my dismay 1) at the amount of Jrue sour grapesing going on here (yeah, we're not getting him, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't be a fantastic fit), and 2) the idea of us getting Gobert. Unless the Pels also want to give us their pick, Ingram snt, and either Jrue or Ball for KP. And I'd probably need more than that.
(11-05-2020, 11:03 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]I don't see a Dallas trade that is worth New Orleans' while unless interest overall is tepid, at which point the Pelicans might as well keep Holiday.
That last bit is true at least until the trade deadline. I think Jrue staying where he is may even be the most likely outcome.
New Orleans really needs to make some determinations pretty quick about the franchise.
If I'm New Orleans, personally I'd be trading up further into the lottery and getting one of the guards. Really move up and try and get Edwards or the other Ball. If you like your Ball get another lol. If not, you really should consider trading up for a guy like Haliburton.
(11-05-2020, 11:27 AM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]I just want to express my dismay 1) at the amount of Jrue sour grapesing going on here (yeah, we're not getting him, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't be a fantastic fit), and 2) the idea of us getting Gobert. Unless the Pels also want to give us their pick, Ingram snt, and either Jrue or Ball for KP. And I'd probably need more than that.
Oh I agree Jrue would be a fantastic fit. Secondary playmaker: check. Great defender: Check. Adequate 3 pt shooter. It's hard to find all 3 in a NBA player today. That's why I want him on the team. Make no mistake I want Jrue 100%. I'm somewhat hesitant to exhaust all assets to get him when we could sign him next summer. I still do the deal tho because I think with Jrue you can make some noise and that noise is going to be really hard to ignore for a 2nd high money free agent next summer. Also just because he fills all the holes we need doesn't mean he does for everyone else. Denver for one doesn't need additional secondary playmaking and thus why pay that cost?
The sour grapes I will have for Jrue is if he does get traded to a contender and is off the FA market next summer. If he is still in New Orleans post deadline, I think he's most likely a Mav next summer no matter what happens with Giannis.
Also I'm 100% against Gobert unless you traded KP away for someone like Beal ha. Aint happening. I don't want that to happen anyways. Gobert and KP would be an utter disaster.
Cuban would sell the franchise before giving Gobert the supermax so that is nothing...not even smoke. Sounds like an agent driving to fish for someone to pay Gobert what he wants, but teams aren't paying big money to classic bigs like hm anymore. Guys like Drummond and Gobert aren't going to get superstar money and likely not even close.
(11-05-2020, 12:13 PM)Moviemavguy Wrote: [ -> ]Cuban would sell the franchise before giving Gobert the supermax so that is nothing...not even smoke. Sounds like an agent driving to fish for someone to pay Gobert what he wants, but teams aren't paying big money to classic bigs like hm anymore. Guys like Drummond and Gobert aren't going to get superstar money and likely not even close.
Dallas can’t give Gobert the Super-Max, so not even a concern.
There is no denying Gobert is a star. He’s 10th best in the league in RPM and first in D-RPM. What that is worth is obviously up for debate, but there is no denying he, Luka and KP would be 3 stars and that team would be improved regardless of what GA does a year from now.
(11-05-2020, 12:37 PM)DanSchwartzman Wrote: [ -> ]Dallas can’t give Gobert the Super-Max, so not even a concern.
There is no denying Gobert is a star. He’s 10th best in the league in RPM and first in D-RPM. What that is worth is obviously up for debate, but there is no denying he, Luka and KP would be 3 stars and that team would be improved regardless of what GA does a year from now.
I agree to an extent, but on the other hand I kind of feel like I CAN argue that they'd be improved. My argument would be based on the idea that the sport has become like 80% spread pick and roll, just like the European game. I think you can still get away with either KP or Gobert, but I'm not thrilled at the idea of trying to make a defense work with BOTH. I mean, technically, yes. You'd have more talent on your roster. But, if they can't play the last five minutes of the game together, what's the point?
(11-05-2020, 11:27 AM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]I just want to express my dismay 1) at the amount of Jrue sour grapesing going on here (yeah, we're not getting him, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't be a fantastic fit), and 2) the idea of us getting Gobert. Unless the Pels also want to give us their pick, Ingram snt, and either Jrue or Ball for KP. And I'd probably need more than that.
I'm might be missing something pal, which statements constitute sour grapes? Is it the "we're not getting him"? Just curious.
Regarding Jrue and Gobert, both, what I think is happening is that day-of posters drove the opinion in one direction, and made it appear that there was a statistical concencus on the forum. Some even "called" the forum opinion outcome because of this. But then mail-in posts arrived and got counted later than the day-of posts, which has made the forum opinion race tighten. Some posters cried fraud at this tightening of the forum opinion race, but really it's just the natural consequence of batches of posts arriving and being counted later.
#AllOpinionsCounted
(11-05-2020, 01:24 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ] (11-05-2020, 11:27 AM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]I just want to express my dismay 1) at the amount of Jrue sour grapesing going on here (yeah, we're not getting him, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't be a fantastic fit), and 2) the idea of us getting Gobert. Unless the Pels also want to give us their pick, Ingram snt, and either Jrue or Ball for KP. And I'd probably need more than that.
I'm might be missing something pal, which statements constitute sour grapes? Is it the "we're not getting him"? Just curious.
Regarding Jrue and Gobert, both, what I think is happening is that day-of posters drove the opinion in one direction, and made it appear that there was a statistical concencus on the forum. Some even "called" the forum opinion outcome because of this. But then mail-in posts arrived and got counted later than the day-of posts, which has made the forum opinion race tighten. Some posters cried fraud at this tightening of the forum opinion race, but really it's just the natural consequence of batches of posts arriving and being counted later.
#AllOpinionsCounted
No, it wasn't the "we're not getting him" issue, it was the denunciation of his value as a player, which was pretty absurd, tbqh.
(11-05-2020, 01:30 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]No, it wasn't the "we're not getting him" issue, it was the denunciation of his value as a player, which was pretty absurd, tbqh.
Unfortunately, parties often resort to this kind of thing when a forum opinion race is this tight. They sometimes even go ALL CAPS on twitter or appeal to a mod to have posts stopped or thrown out.
(11-05-2020, 01:14 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ] (11-05-2020, 12:37 PM)DanSchwartzman Wrote: [ -> ]Dallas can’t give Gobert the Super-Max, so not even a concern.
There is no denying Gobert is a star. He’s 10th best in the league in RPM and first in D-RPM. What that is worth is obviously up for debate, but there is no denying he, Luka and KP would be 3 stars and that team would be improved regardless of what GA does a year from now.
I agree to an extent, but on the other hand I kind of feel like I CAN argue that they'd be improved. My argument would be based on the idea that the sport has become like 80% spread pick and roll, just like the European game. I think you can still get away with either KP or Gobert, but I'm not thrilled at the idea of trying to make a defense work with BOTH. I mean, technically, yes. You'd have more talent on your roster. But, if they can't play the last five minutes of the game together, what's the point?
It would certainly be an interesting experiment. I get the concern, but hear me out.
Gobert/WCS/KP are the 1st, 20th and 29th best PLAYERS in the league in D-RPM. Yes, someone would have to cover the perimeter...especially on switches. But, there would be a highly rated shot blocker behind them at all times. I’m not sure we’ve seen that tried as there hasn’t ever been anything like KP and Gobert on the same team. That means the big on the perimeter doesn’t have to chase back to the basket. They can play fairly aggressive drop coverage and simply worry about 3 pointers as any player who goes around them will have a top shot blocker waiting for them.
We were killing it with Powell last year before KP came back into his own. Gobert is a substantial improvement over Powell. I think it would work, but we are probably only talking about 12 minutes a game. The other 32 minutes we could conceivably have one or the other star big on the floor alone.