I think THJ is okay on the ball but one of the worst pick and roll and team defenders in the league. No one on the roster misses more rotations. In two of the early bubble game threads I posted some video breakdown. Sadly I cannot find it right now.
Powell is a way better defender. Maybe not a good iso post/perimeter defender or rim protector but he makes the right plays most of the time. Rarely missing rotations or blowing the coverage.
(09-20-2020, 10:23 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]I think THJ is okay on the ball but one of the worst pick and roll and team defenders in the league. No one on the roster misses more rotations. In two of the early bubble game threads I posted some video breakdown. Sadly I cannot find it right now.
I wish everyone would take note of how dirkfan does the eye-test in his posts. He backs it up with actual concrete observations (often specific plays) rather than just generic statements: "________ is a TERRIBLE defender!"
The "eye-test" is legit, but it is so often a lazy man's evaluation tool for making unfounded declarations, when in reality it requires just as much work as good statistical interpretation.
(09-20-2020, 10:28 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ] (09-20-2020, 10:23 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]I think THJ is okay on the ball but one of the worst pick and roll and team defenders in the league. No one on the roster misses more rotations. In two of the early bubble game threads I posted some video breakdown. Sadly I cannot find it right now.
I wish everyone would take note of how dirkfan does the eye-test in his posts. He backs it up with actual concrete observations (often specific plays) rather than just generic statements: "________ is a TERRIBLE defender!"
The "eye-test" is legit, but it is so often a lazy man's evaluation tool for making unfounded declarations, when in reality it requires just as much work as good statistical interpretation.
I think defense as a whole is really hard to evaluate for fans. We simply don´t know the schemes or play calls. It´s easy to blame the guy that gets scored on in an iso mismatch that only happens because his teammate missed a rotation or did not fight over a screen. Same for pick and roll defense. I have watched games and complained about the bad pick and roll defense but after the post game interview I realized that the players did exactly what the coach wanted when they went under the screen.
I think the current Heat-Celtics series shows that coaching and team defense are way more important than individual on ball defense. The Heat can shut down the Celtics offense with bad on ball defenders like Dragic, Robinson and Olynyk. Neither of them is any better than Powell, THJ or Curry when it comes to on ball defense.
(09-20-2020, 10:28 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ] (09-20-2020, 10:23 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]I think THJ is okay on the ball but one of the worst pick and roll and team defenders in the league. No one on the roster misses more rotations. In two of the early bubble game threads I posted some video breakdown. Sadly I cannot find it right now.
I wish everyone would take note of how dirkfan does the eye-test in his posts. He backs it up with actual concrete observations (often specific plays) rather than just generic statements: "________ is a TERRIBLE defender!"
The "eye-test" is legit, but it is so often a lazy man's evaluation tool for making unfounded declarations, when in reality it requires just as much work as good statistical interpretation.
How about 6 years of watching Powell guard the post and defend the rim against drivers (whether guards or forwards) and not being able to do anything to bother their shots, much less block them? He's a big. Bigs are supposed to be able to do *something* on defense in the post. Powell can stay with his guy pretty well on drives due to his athleticism, but once his opponent reaches the rim, it's lights out virtually every single time. Maxi is a much better defender, even though his blocks are somewhat low, because he has enough extension, timing, and savvy to at least bother the shot. Powell may as well not be there (unless he commits a body foul) at the rim. Say what you will about WCS, but he's much better at defending the rim, both as a one-on-one defender and weakside, than Powell. He happens to make much less money as well. Even if he lacks Powell's BBIQ, he is far less of a defensive liability, and I believe his superior body and athleticism make him nearly Powell's equal on offense (ducks waiting for Kamm and Dan's flames, but I saw what I saw this year).
(09-20-2020, 10:40 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ] (09-20-2020, 10:28 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ] (09-20-2020, 10:23 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]I think THJ is okay on the ball but one of the worst pick and roll and team defenders in the league. No one on the roster misses more rotations. In two of the early bubble game threads I posted some video breakdown. Sadly I cannot find it right now.
I wish everyone would take note of how dirkfan does the eye-test in his posts. He backs it up with actual concrete observations (often specific plays) rather than just generic statements: "________ is a TERRIBLE defender!"
The "eye-test" is legit, but it is so often a lazy man's evaluation tool for making unfounded declarations, when in reality it requires just as much work as good statistical interpretation.
I think defense as a whole is really hard to evaluate for fans. We simply don´t know the schemes or play calls. It´s easy to blame the guy that gets scored on in an iso mismatch that only happens because his teammate missed a rotation or did not fight over a screen. Same for pick and roll defense. I have watched games and complained about the bad pick and roll defense but after the post game interview I realized that the players did exactly what the coach wanted when they went under the screen.
I think the current Heat-Celtics series shows that coaching and team defense are way more important than individual on ball defense. The Heat can shut down the Celtics offense with bad on ball defenders like Dragic, Robinson and Olynyk. Neither of them is any better than Powell, THJ or Curry when it comes to on ball defense.
Then it might be good if we got RC a top-flight defensive assistant.
(09-20-2020, 10:40 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]I think defense as a whole is really hard to evaluate for fans. We simply don´t know the schemes or play calls. It´s easy to blame the guy that gets scored on in an iso mismatch that only happens because his teammate missed a rotation or did not fight over a screen. Same for pick and roll defense. I have watched games and complained about the bad pick and roll defense but after the post game interview I realized that the players did exactly what the coach wanted when they went under the screen.
I think the current Heat-Celtics series shows that coaching and team defense are way more important than individual on ball defense. The Heat can shut down the Celtics offense with bad on ball defenders like Dragic, Robinson and Olynyk. Neither of them is any better than Powell, THJ or Curry when it comes to on ball defense.
Man, this whole post is good, but the underlined sentence is what's missing from a lot of the posters here.
(09-20-2020, 10:45 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ] (09-20-2020, 10:40 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]I think defense as a whole is really hard to evaluate for fans. We simply don´t know the schemes or play calls. It´s easy to blame the guy that gets scored on in an iso mismatch that only happens because his teammate missed a rotation or did not fight over a screen. Same for pick and roll defense. I have watched games and complained about the bad pick and roll defense but after the post game interview I realized that the players did exactly what the coach wanted when they went under the screen.
I think the current Heat-Celtics series shows that coaching and team defense are way more important than individual on ball defense. The Heat can shut down the Celtics offense with bad on ball defenders like Dragic, Robinson and Olynyk. Neither of them is any better than Powell, THJ or Curry when it comes to on ball defense.
Man, this whole post is good, but the underlined sentence is what's missing from a lot of the posters here.
Once again, get RC a capable defensive assistant whom he will listen to.
Trading any significant piece for OPJ is a mistake. The dude has played in 70 games in 3 years. That is an average of a little over 30 games a year. If I am going to move Maxi I am going to do it for a better player and someone that helps me win now and also someone that I can move later on. The Jimmy Butler signing was pulled off by Miami when they were over the cap. I do not want to put my eggs in the GA basket.
We already have one player in our lineup that is injury prone, so count me out on a deal that involves giving up major pieces for OPJ.
I would be for this
Maxi Kleber + Josh Jackson for Serge Ibaka (Sign and Trade) plus Pick swap 31 for for 29
Delon Wright + THJ for + Jalen Brunson for Aaron Gordon + Evan Fournier
You now have
Serge Ibaka
Evan Fournier
Aaron Gordon
Pick 18
Pick 29
(09-20-2020, 10:57 PM)Omega_Supreme Wrote: [ -> ]Trading any significant piece for OPJ is a mistake. The dude has played in 70 games in 3 years. That is an average of a little over 30 games a year. If I am going to move Maxi I am going to do it for a better player and someone that helps me win now and also someone that I can move later on. The Jimmy Butler signing was pulled off by Miami when they were over the cap. I do not want to put my eggs in the GA basket.
We already have one player in our lineup that is injury prone, so count me out on a deal that involves giving up major pieces for OPJ.
I would be for this
Maxi Kleber + Josh Jackson for Serge Ibaka (Sign and Trade) plus Pick swap 31 for for 29
Delon Wright + THJ for + Jalen Brunson for Aaron Gordon + Evan Fournier
You now have
Serge Ibaka
Evan Fournier
Aaron Gordon
Pick 18
Pick 29
You mean Justin Jackson, right?
(09-20-2020, 10:58 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ] (09-20-2020, 10:57 PM)Omega_Supreme Wrote: [ -> ]Trading any significant piece for OPJ is a mistake. The dude has played in 70 games in 3 years. That is an average of a little over 30 games a year. If I am going to move Maxi I am going to do it for a better player and someone that helps me win now and also someone that I can move later on. The Jimmy Butler signing was pulled off by Miami when they were over the cap. I do not want to put my eggs in the GA basket.
We already have one player in our lineup that is injury prone, so count me out on a deal that involves giving up major pieces for OPJ.
I would be for this
Maxi Kleber + Josh Jackson for Serge Ibaka (Sign and Trade) plus Pick swap 31 for for 29
Delon Wright + THJ for + Jalen Brunson for Aaron Gordon + Evan Fournier
You now have
Serge Ibaka
Evan Fournier
Aaron Gordon
Pick 18
Pick 29
You mean Justin Jackson, right?
Yes my bad I meant Justin Jackson. I think a trade like that could work because Orlando will want to free up money and not commit to their existing guys.
If I am not mistaken we could probably move Courtney Lee in that deal as well and give them immediate cap flexibility.
Courtney Lee + Jalen Brunson + Pick 31 for Aaron Gordon
(09-20-2020, 10:57 PM)Omega_Supreme Wrote: [ -> ]Trading any significant piece for OPJ is a mistake. The dude has played in 70 games in 3 years. That is an average of a little over 30 games a year. If I am going to move Maxi I am going to do it for a better player and someone that helps me win now and also someone that I can move later on. The Jimmy Butler signing was pulled off by Miami when they were over the cap. I do not want to put my eggs in the GA basket.
We already have one player in our lineup that is injury prone, so count me out on a deal that involves giving up major pieces for OPJ.
I would be for this
Maxi Kleber + Josh Jackson for Serge Ibaka (Sign and Trade) plus Pick swap 31 for for 29
Delon Wright + THJ for + Jalen Brunson for Aaron Gordon + Evan Fournier
You now have
Serge Ibaka
Evan Fournier
Aaron Gordon
Pick 18
Pick 29
You’re the second poster to do this now. He’s played 70 games in 2 seasons. He’s had a couple injuries at bad times. Third year back he played 77 games. You and some other poster are looking at his trade year where he has 3 lines for the 1 year. One each for the team he was traded from and to and one for the total of the two. Please get the facts straight.
@"Kammrath" what do the abacus dudes say about Aaron Gordon?
I've always thought he was overrated here, and I think people who don't like Powell/KP together are going to have the same complaints with Gordon/KP, only maybe worse.
We know the Mavs like Fournier though.
(09-20-2020, 11:08 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]You’re the second poster to do this now. He’s played 70 games in 2 seasons. He’s had a couple injuries at bad times. Third year back he played 77 games. You and some other poster are looking at his trade year where he has 3 lines for the 1 year. One each for the team he was traded from and to and one for the total of the two. Please get the facts straight.
Maybe Omega and the other poster are THE SAME GUY
https://giphy.com/gifs/ZdCJ4G17h7lIsrYfLs
(09-20-2020, 11:09 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]@"Kammrath" what do the abacus dudes say about Aaron Gordon?
I've always thought he was overrated here, and I think people who don't like Powell/KP together are going to have the same complaints with Gordon/KP, only maybe worse.
We know the Mavs like Fournier though.
(09-20-2020, 11:08 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]You’re the second poster to do this now. He’s played 70 games in 2 seasons. He’s had a couple injuries at bad times. Third year back he played 77 games. You and some other poster are looking at his trade year where he has 3 lines for the 1 year. One each for the team he was traded from and to and one for the total of the two. Please get the facts straight.
Maybe Omega and the other poster are THE SAME GUY
https://giphy.com/gifs/ZdCJ4G17h7lIsrYfLs
Everyone but me and you are TMOGE! (Edit: Everyone but you and I... not as my mother would say “mean you”.)
Also I hope not, cause I posted to educate that guy on the exact same thing.
Sorry guys, I stand corrected, I am still out on trading Maxi for OPJ.
I better be getting Laure M. or another piece but Maxi is a valuable asset and overperforms at his price point.
His value goes for deeper than his production
(09-20-2020, 10:45 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ] (09-20-2020, 10:40 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]I think defense as a whole is really hard to evaluate for fans. We simply don´t know the schemes or play calls. It´s easy to blame the guy that gets scored on in an iso mismatch that only happens because his teammate missed a rotation or did not fight over a screen. Same for pick and roll defense. I have watched games and complained about the bad pick and roll defense but after the post game interview I realized that the players did exactly what the coach wanted when they went under the screen.
I think the current Heat-Celtics series shows that coaching and team defense are way more important than individual on ball defense. The Heat can shut down the Celtics offense with bad on ball defenders like Dragic, Robinson and Olynyk. Neither of them is any better than Powell, THJ or Curry when it comes to on ball defense.
Man, this whole post is good, but the underlined sentence is what's missing from a lot of the posters here.
It's easy to say you can get away with 3 bad to not so good on ball defenders (with size!), if you have Butler to do the on ball defense.
(09-21-2020, 12:12 AM)Omega_Supreme Wrote: [ -> ]Sorry guys, I stand corrected, I am still out on trading Maxi for OPJ.
I better be getting Laure M. or another piece but Maxi is a valuable asset and overperforms at his price point.
His value goes for deeper than his production
I find it interesting that you believe Serge Ibaka worth more than OPJ since you included Maxi in that trade.
Stolen from another board I read:
NY gives Taj Gibson (expiring) and Frank N.
Dallas gives Wright and a pick swap of 18 for 27.
You move off of Wright's salary. Gibson is a veteran battler who is 35 and still put up a PER of 16, a WS/48 of .120 and TS% of .610 on a really bad team. You get a one year tryout with Frank. If he's nothing, you move on. If he's good and Giannis doesn't come here you have cap room to sign him (HIBW's). The cost is moving down 9 slots (which saves enough 2021 salary to retain WCS's hold even with a cap of $109.1mm).
No Maxi's were injured in the making of this post.
![[Image: giphy.gif]](https://media.giphy.com/media/IdfZoqnHEEqFkXBUFO/giphy.gif)
![[Image: giphy.gif]](https://media.giphy.com/media/Xby5ukZo1aDEeadlpx/giphy.gif)