MavsBoard

(11-05-2020, 06:11 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-05-2020, 05:18 PM)ClutchDirk Wrote: [ -> ]The Mavs need to get a 3rd star, dynamic scorer, or better closing players if the first 2 options aren't attainable...We were elite for 3 1/2 quarters just need to get better at closing to truly contend...

Better defense is what closes games.

What I saw last season was a historic offense fall apart the last 5 minutes and lose games...

(11-05-2020, 06:49 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]DeAndre Ayton to play the 3 next to Gobert/Porzingis

(11-05-2020, 06:30 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]@"omahen" If you believe a core of Luka, KP and Harris automatically puts the team into contention and would then be easy to build around, then I can understand why you'd be interested. 

I absolutely do not believe that. So I am not interested. Maybe the source of the disagreement is just that simple.

Probably. 

I do not have the highest opinion of the MBT, but with a superstar like Luka the gym janitor should be able to sign a player of Harris´ level in free agency next year, for half the cost.  Unless you have a ridiculously high opinion of Harris.

Then the Orange Man might start a civil war before the draft even happens.

(11-05-2020, 07:05 PM)Mavs2019 Wrote: [ -> ]I do not have the highest opinion of the MBT, but with a superstar like Luka the gym janitor should be able to sign a player of Harris´ level in free agency next year, for half the cost.

Do please name a couple of those options, let's not be so vague...

(11-05-2020, 07:02 PM)ClutchDirk Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-05-2020, 06:11 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-05-2020, 05:18 PM)ClutchDirk Wrote: [ -> ]The Mavs need to get a 3rd star, dynamic scorer, or better closing players if the first 2 options aren't attainable...We were elite for 3 1/2 quarters just need to get better at closing to truly contend...

Better defense is what closes games.

What I saw last season was a historic offense fall apart the last 5 minutes and lose games...

because they had crap defense that couldn't stop the other team from scoring when things get desperate.

(11-05-2020, 07:05 PM)Mavs2019 Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-05-2020, 06:30 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]@"omahen" If you believe a core of Luka, KP and Harris automatically puts the team into contention and would then be easy to build around, then I can understand why you'd be interested. 

I absolutely do not believe that. So I am not interested. Maybe the source of the disagreement is just that simple.

Probably. 

I do not have the highest opinion of the MBT, but with a superstar like Luka the gym janitor should be able to sign a player of Harris´ level in free agency next year, for half the cost.  Unless you have a ridiculously high opinion of Harris.

Then the Orange Man might start a civil war before the draft even happens.

I think most of us suggested that the Mavs get more out of a potential Harris trade. Personally I think

Harris + Thybull + 21 --> Wright + Powell + THJ

is a good starting point. But I would probably ask for at least one more future pick. The whole point of a Harris trade is the combination of getting a 3rd option but also adding assets.

(11-05-2020, 07:40 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]I think most of suggested that the Mavs get more out of a potential Harris trade. Personally I think

Harris + Thybull + 21 --> Wright + Powell + THJ

Personally I think this trade is a no go for Philly. They would get rid of Harris contract, but get much worse. We can see money is not a problem as they reportedly paid Morey 10 mil per season. Besides I think you are putting too high price. If you like Harris the player, you will survive without that additional pick. If you don't, you shouldn't be trading for him in the first place.

Why I think it is not good for them from player perspective. THJ plays on Richardson position, Powell duplicates with Horford, Wright is meh. Because they pay assets to Dallas they basically lose the ability to get rid of Horford (altough perhaps someone like Charlotte would take his veteran leadership for Philly 2020 picks), who is much bigger pain for them than Harris. I think Kleber+Curry+Powell would make more sense for them. From Dallas perspective I think it makes more sense to keep THJ as starting SG and look to replace Curry and Kleber from draft and MLE, which should be more easy to do than find a starting SG.

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(11-05-2020, 07:40 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]Thybull

As far as assets go, I think he is a huge one. Philly really nailed this pick as he has all the potential to become Covington level type of player very soon.

(11-05-2020, 06:33 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-05-2020, 06:21 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]I believe that Gobert and Dipo hurt the Mavs moving forward because 1) they won't stay with the Mavs when their contracts expire unless we pay them more than they're worth, and 2) if we pay them more than they're worth, then we destroy flexibility for several years. No thanks on both. I don't think that all 2021 free agents are like that, but I think those two will be. Visions of psychotic grandiosity.

As I think Kawhi and George being free agents in 2021 are dreams, I think any third star we want to get we will have to overpay. Either in assets, salary or both. But as Dan already explained nicely a couple of pages back - Cuban's wallet will be the only thing affected by this overpay.

......because there's evidently no such thing as a salary cap that affects future team-building.

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(11-05-2020, 07:59 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-05-2020, 07:40 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]I think most of suggested that the Mavs get more out of a potential Harris trade. Personally I think

Harris + Thybull + 21 --> Wright + Powell + THJ

Personally I think this trade is a no go for Philly. They would get rid of Harris contract, but get much worse. We can see money is not a problem as they reportedly paid Morey 10 mil per season. Besides I think you are putting too high price. If you like Harris the player, you will survive without that additional pick. If you don't, you shouldn't be trading for him in the first place.

Why I think it is not good for them from player perspective. THJ plays on Richardson position, Powell duplicates with Horford, Wright is meh. Because they pay assets to Dallas they basically lose the ability to get rid of Horford (altough perhaps someone like Charlotte would take his veteran leadership for Philly 2020 picks), who is much bigger pain for them than Harris. I think Kleber+Curry+Powell would make more sense for them. From Dallas perspective I think it makes more sense to keep THJ as starting SG and look to replace Curry and Kleber from draft and MLE, which should be more easy to do than find a starting SG.

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(11-05-2020, 07:40 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]Thybull

As far as assets go, I think he is a huge one. Philly really nailed this pick as he has all the potential to become Covington level type of player very soon.

Holy crap, Omahen, how much is Morey paying you?

If Harris is available for our crap + two or three assets, then the Mavs could conceivably consider it. If not, then absolutely no deal. If a less generous deal doesn't work for Philly and Morey, tfb.

The reason I'm out on Harris except as an extreme last resort is quite simple:
1) KP's health makes him shaky as a 2nd star, so the ideal is to get a 3rd guy whose health + his game adds up to a better player than KP. I'm not saying we have to get a guy better than KP, but rather that he has to be a suitable Robin for Luka in the event that KP goes down in the playoffs again. Harris is not that.
2) The alternative to getting that one guy is to assemble significant talent that adds up to similar quality - i.e., much better talent than the Mavs have surrounding Luka and KP right now. That means cheap players who are very good on rookie deals, MLE or partial MLE guys who are not overpaid, trading for players who aren't overpaid, etc. making future movement simple. If you get to a point where a guy who is overpaid puts you over the top, then you can do that - after your non-Luka/KP talent chest is about quantitatively double what it is now. Harris shuts down nearly all future movement with extreme prematurity. The assets we got with him would have to be so substantial as to make up for what we could not get because he's on the roster.

I also agree with KL and others and not with you that the Mavs will never have to pay guys Parsons/Matthews/Barnes contracts with Luka on roster. I simply think you're wrong on that. Don't look at the Luka-less past.

(11-05-2020, 08:02 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]......because there's evidently no such thing as a salary cap that affects future team-building.

I am really not sure what you are trying to say with your comment?

Harris+rich+21--->delon+thj+powell+JJ

Would make more sense for both of us. Thybulle is probably too valuable to them but they are willing to move off of rich who would work well for us too.

(11-05-2020, 08:02 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]1) KP's health makes him shaky as a 2nd star, so the ideal is to get a 3rd guy whose health + his game adds up to a better player than KP. I'm not saying we have to get a guy better than KP, but rather that he has to be a suitable Robin for Luka in the event that KP goes down in the playoffs again. Harris is not that.

I am really fed up with comments like this. Please take a look at top guys and please name who exactly would that be. I have and I just don't see that many options. Jrue would cost too much, Hayward and Oladipo aren't really much better than Harris. So who would this mistery guy be???

(11-05-2020, 08:02 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]Harris shuts down nearly all future movement with extreme prematurity.

That is so not true, as I have already argued. We keep plenty of role players, all our picks and add assets. All we lose is max space possibility. Other than that we have plenty of options to continue building around.

(11-05-2020, 08:02 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]I also agree with KL and others and not with you that the Mavs will never have to pay guys Parsons/Matthews/Barnes contracts with Luka on roster. I simply think you're wrong on that. Don't look at the Luka-less past.

I think next year free agency is extremely overrated. Best players will very likely stay with their current teams. "Half" of the league will have cap space and the rest of "star" players are old guys like Lowry or question marks like Hayward or Oladipo. So I have really hard time seeing how this guys will be flocking to Dallas at half their price (taking into consideration the cap space available around the league).

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(11-05-2020, 08:02 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]The assets we got with him would have to be so substantial as to make up for what we could not get because he's on the roster.

Again please. Which players would that be other than GA pipedream? Name players we couldn't get because we would have Harris. Please mind we can still create up to 15 mil of cap space with Harris on board.

20/21 - 39,358,850
21/22 - 35,955,950
22/23 - 37,633,050
23/24 - 39,270,150

Don´t know how Harris contract is viewed around the league but a pretty common approach for bad max deals is one 1st round pick for every remaining year of his contract.
Mavs sending out Powell and Wright is probably worth two 1sts. Meaning that I would ask for Thybull (1st round value) and at least one more pick.

Let me help you with a list of 2021 free agents (top 20 by 2020 salary and best RFA)

1. Paul (PO) - not max player anymore, will probably take his PO
2. LeBron (PO) - yeah right. Will stay in LA
3. Kawhi (PO) - same as above
4. Griffin (PO) - not max player anymore, will take his PO
5. George (PO) - I find it highly unlikely he would not stay in LA. Outside of GA best theoretical option that could happen. But a longshot imho
6. Hayward 
7. Conley - too old, not max player anymore
8. Lowry - too old, not max player anymore
9. DeRozan - do I need to comment?
10. OPJ - worth around 15 per, still reachable even with Harris on board
11. JRue (PO) - I think he will not be a FA. He will either resign or not take his PO
12. Gobert - I don't think he is worth max
13. Drummond -  
14. Adams -  
15. Giannis - pipedream
16. Aldridge -  
17. Batum   
18. Oladipo - you don't want to pay max for him
19. THJ
20. Schroeder

Best RFA:
1. Ball, Fultz, are not max guys
2. Tatum will resign this season
3. Isaac - I guess Orlando will resign him, also a HUGE injury risk
4. Fox - will resign with Sacramento
5. I have a hard time seeing any other guy being worth more than 20 per (likely less)

So out of all this "great long list of free agents" you have an extreme longshot with Paul George or Giannis as really top guys. The rest are in the Harris range at best.

I eventually want Ball as a reclamation project. He'll be my new Millsap/Barton so that means the Mavs will never consider it.

(11-05-2020, 08:55 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]Don´t know how Harris contract is viewed around the league but a pretty common approach for bad max deals is one 1st round pick for every remaining year of his contract.

I am not sure and here are the arguments:
- this is assuming Philly WANTS to get rid of him. I don't think that is a case - at least not for a bunch of bad contracts. He is far from useless, he is just overpaid.
- take CP3. OKC will not pay picks to trade his huge contract, more likely they will get them. Sure, CP3 had an awsome season, but he is also a big injury risk. Not to mention he is 35. Drummond is another example - absolutely awful contract yet Cleveland still paid a second rounder to get him.

(11-05-2020, 09:05 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-05-2020, 08:55 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]Don´t know how Harris contract is viewed around the league but a pretty common approach for bad max deals is one 1st round pick for every remaining year of his contract.

I am not sure and here are the arguments:
- this is assuming Philly WANTS to get rid of him. I don't think that is a case - at least not for a bunch of bad contracts. He is far from useless, he is just overpaid.
- take CP3. OKC will not pay picks to trade his huge contract, more likely they will get them. Sure, CP3 had an awsome season, but he is also a big injury risk. Not to mention he is 35. Drummond is another example - absolutely awful contract yet Cleveland still paid a second rounder to get him.

Drummond is expiring. Cleveland traded for a max slot in 2021. The CP3-Westbrook trade included 4 1st round picks and I think CP3 is still the better player. Meaning that the Rockets paid a lot to get out of his contract.

Agree that the 76ers will most likely try to move Horford. They aren´t willing to pay the price for a potential Harris trade.

(11-05-2020, 09:05 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-05-2020, 08:55 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]Don´t know how Harris contract is viewed around the league but a pretty common approach for bad max deals is one 1st round pick for every remaining year of his contract.

I am not sure and here are the arguments:
- this is assuming Philly WANTS to get rid of him. I don't think that is a case - at least not for a bunch of bad contracts. He is far from useless, he is just overpaid.
- take CP3. OKC will not pay picks to trade his huge contract, more likely they will get them. Sure, CP3 had an awsome season, but he is also a big injury risk. Not to mention he is 35. Drummond is another example - absolutely awful contract yet Cleveland still paid a second rounder to get him.

Yes they made the playoffs, but OKC is rebuilding.  They'll not give CP3 away as they can afford his contract until an attractive offer comes along.  76ers are in a win now mode.  I have no idea how they view Harris, but the Mavs shouldn't be doing them any favors by helping them get off his contract.  I need a future first to even entertain that discussion as that's an asset I'll need to help get out of his contract should the time come.  Harris is easily making 10-15m per year over what I'd want to pay him.

(11-05-2020, 09:14 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]76ers are in a win now mode.  I have no idea how they view Harris, but the Mavs shouldn't be doing them any favors by helping them get off his contract.

Exactly. Which is why they are looking to get better NOW in trades, not worse. Which is why I claim a package of Curry, Maxi and Powell might be seen as equal value from player worth point of view for them. I don't think THJ+Powell convinces them, because of the overlap with remaining players. Of course we want pick(s) and high upside players for the favor of taking bad contract. They don't care about them.

(11-05-2020, 09:14 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]Harris is easily making 10-15m per year over what I'd want to pay him.

Agree. What I am affraid is, all available good 2021 free agents like Hayward and Oladipo will also require (near) max money because of all the competition for their services in 2021. So where is the difference if we get Harris now instead of overpaing guys like above in 2021? As long as GA pipedream is off the table, it makes much more sense to make a move this year, where there is very little competition from other teams.

(11-05-2020, 09:24 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-05-2020, 09:14 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]76ers are in a win now mode.  I have no idea how they view Harris, but the Mavs shouldn't be doing them any favors by helping them get off his contract.

Exactly. Which is why they are looking to get better NOW in trades, not worse. Which is why I claim a package of Curry, Maxi and Powell might be seen as equal value from player worth point of view for them. I don't think THJ+Powell convinces them, because of the overlap with remaining players. Of course we want pick(s) and high upside players for the favor of taking bad contract. They don't care about them.

(11-05-2020, 09:14 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]Harris is easily making 10-15m per year over what I'd want to pay him.

Agree. What I am affraid is, all available good 2021 free agents like Hayward and Oladipo will also require (near) max money because of all the competition for their services in 2021. So where is the difference if we get Harris now instead of overpaing guys like above in 2021? As long as GA pipedream is off the table, it makes much more sense to make a move this year, where there is very little competition from other team

I'm just not willing to help them get better now.  I'm not giving up asset for Harris.  Curry, Maxi, 18 + 31 might not have a ton of value, but they are chips I'd rather use elsewhere for a contract that doesn't tie our hands as much and I'm still going to ask for something significant back.  I just don't think we are fit and that's probably a good thing.   If you want to spend a lot of money and do a win now move, I'd rather role the dice on CP3.

I kind of hate all of the big names we've been floating around (Dipo, Hayward, Harris).  The only reason I'm okay with Gobert is I think you can flip him but Utah isn't going to give him away either and by the time they make that decision, we might not have near enough assets to get him.  

Jrue is probably my favorite player on the market but we'll get outbid.  Hield intrigues me, I can see it going wrong but I think you could also trade him somewhat easily.  Wipe his name from my list if we can draft Nesmith.  I also like Bogdan but I think the Kings would match what I'd consider a reasonable offer.