KL, please note that I want no part of Harris without another nice player and a mountain of Billy King assets coming with him, which basically means I don't want him because Morey.
Hey, a crazy idea I want to throw out there - any chance Mirotic underestimated Luka and could be persuaded to come back from Europe to play with him? I mean, if we had room...
(10-31-2020, 02:17 PM)DanSchwartzman Wrote: [ -> ] (10-31-2020, 01:39 PM)Mapka Wrote: [ -> ]
Better POV would be to look how much of an overpay he is every season and if the compensation is worth the missed opportunity's.
omahen
Based on all this - Harris salary is a problem only, if we go after Giannis. Otherwise, the only realisitic dillema is between having him, Oladipo or Hayward (if we are after this level of guys).
Nice work on all that Omahen. I'd probably Add Gallo to the list you've arrived at. I included Mapka's post because you are essentially answering him. Once you cross above the cap (and certainly when get into paying taxes), there really isn't an opportunity being missed because of an over-pay. You have shown that the "opportunity" in 2021 is illusory, so wh wait a year. Don't get me wrong. Harris isn't worth what he's making and fair pay is always better than over-pay. But, the harm of adding Tobias is mainly to Cuban's wallet. Not to future opportunities.
I've got more draft capital (#21 in 2020), I got a good third starter in Tobi, I got a replacement level guy in Korkmaz who would probably fit well here, I'm off the Powell and Wright salaries and I didn't have to give up Maxi, Curry, Brunson or WCS (essentially my bench). I'm in on a deal like this and use the MLE, Jackson/18 and try to combine 18 and 21 into a lottery pick.
Are you trading THJ here? I'm pretty sure Wright+Powell is not enough salary to go for Tobi.
You are losing every trade involving any of this players.
This trade push you closer to or over the taxline/apron/hard cap. This comes with consequences. MLE, SnT, losing players/assets to fit Lukas Max under the apron. Flexibility.
I would be fine with this, if I would see the fit with the Player. I can't. He fits perfect into the Barnes mold, only more overpaid. He disrupts our flow.
The problem is: If you are in, there is no way back.
Tobias Harris doesn't do anything for me. I wouldn't want to give up anything good for him and he would cut into 2021 cap space.
(10-31-2020, 05:44 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]Tobias Harris doesn't do anything for me. I wouldn't want to give up anything good for him and he would cut into 2021 cap space.
It's not even about 2021, specifically. It's even worse. That move would signal the end of creating any space ever during the Luka era. You'd essentially have your 3 max guys in place. Done deal. And you're nowhere remotely near championship contention. Like, not even remotely in the conversation.
(10-31-2020, 03:31 PM)Mavs2019 Wrote: [ -> ] (10-31-2020, 01:27 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]Great work. And considering the smoke signals of the Mavs wanting to move up in the draft, and being fine taking on big salary if its for a star, there are only 2 teams that fit that. Spurs, and Celtics. Maybe the Mavs are trying to grab either Hayward, DeRozan, or Aldridge. I'm for any one of them as a 1 year trial.
It´s time LMA comes home to Dallas to win his 'ship. He still put up 19/7 with a career shooting year at age 35. Next year, he´ll be 36 and ready to sign with a contender for a small exception. DeRozan is probably still too young for that. He´ll ask for a bigger deal. Could still make sense, if we find two young energy "studs" in the draft, their veteran craftiness might be a nice fit.
Doncic/Brunson
DeRozan/Curry
DFS/Bey
LMA/Kleber
Porzingis/Azubuike
Ah what am I saying, it´s still...
GIANNIS 
I honestly like that lineup. Not a ton of defense, but lots of vet knowledge coupled with youthful energy. Let's get LMA and DeRozan their 'ship!
Edit: After looking at it, I don't see a proposed trade but it looks like THJ/JJ/Powell/Wright for the 2? What is the incentive for SA to do this?
https://phillysportsnetwork.com/2020/10/...-and-bobi/
Interesting seeing this from a Philly perspective. They constructed the same trade idea I had in my head:
Dallas Receives: Tobias Harris, Furkan Korkmaz, 2021 second-round pick (via NYK)
Philadelphia Receives: Tim Hardaway Jr., Dwight Powell, Delon Wright
The good news is that Mavs get out of 2 contracts and upgrades THJ into Tobias Harris. Mavs would have Harris and DFS as the wings and would need to figure out SG, perhaps Curry would go back into that role.
I think Harris will be movable because all these overpaid guys are. Unless he suffers a catastrophic (which of course can happen) he will be movable. I expect Harris to get traded somewhere. So in this deal as mentioned in the article, Sixers would get shooting at the guard position and get out from some salary.
I don't really care for the move bc like most of the moves on these boards we get another guy that can score but not play defense really. He does rebound at least. Mavs need defense and to a lesser extent additional playmaking (I would rate defense as a much higher need).
I still think Mavs can upgrade the team this year without doing anything crazy and then add their third guy in 2021, probably without having to give up any assets in the process.
(10-31-2020, 03:24 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I can't believe what I'm reading in this thread. I think everyone needs to drink some warm milk a take a long nap. Maybe bad trade ideas are a symptom of Covid-19, and if so, several of you should get tested.
I think everyone is just getting into the spirit of Halloween.
Honestly, I don't mind Harris or Horford, but I think those are guys that you trade for AFTER you sign someone like Giannis, not before.
I know FA in Dallas it Lucy and the football for everybody. I am not a big fan of it either. The one thing that makes me okay with giving it a go one more time is that Giannis is there and we have not had a chance to see the gravitational pull of a 21 yr old Superstar Luka yet. This year he put the whole league on notice that he's going to be the league's best player.
I have been seduced by some of these national guys linking Giannis to Dallas. They have no reason to pump up Dallas, as we aren't the Lakers or any other team that is constantly hyped. The reason they have linked Giannis to Dallas is mainly because of Luka. He is clearly a guy that can attract another Superstar.
Quote:List of 2021 UFA:
- Giannis Antetokounmpo PF (Max)
- Victor Oladipo SG (Max if he plays like 2018)
- Gordon Hayward SF
- Demar DeRozan SG
- Otto Porter Jr SF
- Rudy Gobert C
- Kelly Oubre Jr SF
- Jeremi Grant SF
- Evan Fournier SG
Player Option
Trade for Players:- Bradley Beal SG (Max contract)
- Tobias Harris SF (Max contract)
- Buddy Hield SG (mid-level contract)
- Aaron Gordon PF (expiring contract)
- Zach LaVine SG (expring contract)
- Marcus Smart PG (expriing contract)
- Robert Covington (expriing contract)
Tell me if this is right?
Might of miss out on a few players, but these are the players I'm reading often.
The upcoming season really would dictate what kind of players the team will need, and how much our new roster improve (or worsen).
Say if we rebuild our roster for 20-21 with with wings and defensive players but still no playmaking outside of Luka, then 21-22 we'll likely be looking at Oladipo, Derozan, or Hayward. This would add a 3rd star player that can carry the load without having to trade away any key players. HOWEVER if we trade, we're likely going to give a drafted player and something like Curry/Maxi/DFS/DP for Bradley Beal or expiring Zach Levine. This would still add a 3rd star but we would lack a bench that would have to rebuild chemistry and cohesiveness.
I would hate to trade to max contract players, when I rather be a deeper team. Championship basketball team has shown me the complete team that's versatile on all positions and healthy at the finals wins it all.
So here is my thought ...
IF the cap goes down and we don't make the deal for Harris (or something of that nature), and then the cap goes down we we would have preserved space that simply vanished : the anti-dust chip.
I am of a mind that any deals we make need to be done over the cap. This is the summer of nuclear winter and taking advantage of sellers is of top priority...
Cap space vs using Lee in a S&T give me the latter
(10-31-2020, 02:40 PM)JamesConway Wrote: [ -> ]Harris is one of those guys you trade for when you have no flexibility left and it’s all about how deep Cubans pockets are. Right now hes too overpaid to make a move unless you got something else outlandishly expensive lined up. I think were a few seasons away from that though.
Btw: how about Yogi? Smallish guard, defends well, good shooter, can playmake a bit but doesnt need the ball much.
Would make sense Imo as a cheap guard-addition.
Good point... How about a max free agent signing next summer and a sign and trade of THJ and ? for Harris. (Powell if he's still available).
If THJ repeats his year here, I'd have to think Philly is excited to do that deal to get Harris off their books.
His contract is a lot more stomach able when our team is built.
(10-31-2020, 03:44 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ] (10-31-2020, 03:29 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]And your plan for 2021 is?
My plan is not to make my team or situation WORSE, for any reason. That's the only plan I need to talk myself out of a deal for Tobias Harris's contract. It has nothing to do with Giannis. I would literally PREFER bringing the same team back. I do NOT think the team gets better, even incrementally, by trading for Harris.
To this point.... Every time Harris has gotten traded his old team has performed better.
Now I like his game and I think theres a decent chance if he lands here it might be the perfect system for him with the right coach.
I'm not gambling on that fact tho right now when there are so many holes in the team.
(10-31-2020, 04:10 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ] (10-31-2020, 03:28 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I would 100% prefer to sign Trey Burke to the lowest deal possible, draft the BPA at #18 and report to training camp than to make a trade where the PRIZE is Tobias Harris. That move is the spitting image of the Juwon Howard deal. It would represent the idea that Cuban/Donnie had learned absolutely NOTHING the last time around, and that we are doomed to live in a mediocrity loop forever, regardless of the player around whom they're building.
The Juwon Howard deal was a bad one? Without looking at Wikipedia, my memory is that Juwon begat Van Exel and Raef, Van Exel and Raef begat Jamison and Walker, Walker and Jamison begat Terry, Stackhouse, and Harris, Harris begat Kidd, Stackhouse begat Marion, and meanwhile Dampier begat Tyson, and that all that begat a championship.
I miss Mark's spending ways and hope they're back. But not for Horford or Harris unless we get a mountain of assets back.
IIRC you can trace it all the way back to Christian Laettner trade.
(10-31-2020, 08:48 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Quote:Deciding whether to keep [b]Bogdan Bogdanovic[/b] will be one of the most important offseason decisions for new [b]Kings[/b] general manager [b]Monte McNair[/b], writes James Ham of NBC Sports Bay Area. The shooting guard is a restricted free agent, meaning Sacramento can match any offer he receives on the open market. ESPN’s Bobby Marks estimates that Bogdanovic’s new contract will start at $14MM to $16MM, which translates to a total investment of $63MM to $72MM on a four-year deal.
I'd love him at those numbers.
(10-31-2020, 05:47 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]It's not even about 2021, specifically. It's even worse. That move would signal the end of creating any space ever during the Luka era. You'd essentially have your 3 max guys in place. Done deal. And you're nowhere remotely near championship contention. Like, not even remotely in the conversation.
That is just wrong on many levels. I am not saying Harris is the only or the best option, but that statements are just wrong.
1. Harris is a definite upgrade over anything we have on the roster now. He is a third "star". So if you think, we are not even near contention with him, than you really value Luka and KP low.
2. After 2021 we will not have any space for foreseable future. In fact, I hope we will be in tax for the era. The moves need to be made this and next year, afterwards we are extremely limited, as it would basically take to strip the team to get serious cap space with Luka and KP taking some 60-70 % of the cap.
3. In the proposed trade, we would keep Curry, Kleber and DFS, our MLE, all our picks and additional assets (Korkmaz, pick) from Philly. So plenty of flexibility left. We lose cap space, but we have plenty of ammo for other moves if necessary.
4. Take a look at my analysis of top 60 players and who can be available in next two years. It's Giannis (bif iF) and then Hayward, Harris or Oladipo. It makes more sense to pull the trigger on one of those three this season.
Are there better theoretical options? Yes, for sure. But, if Mavs trade for Harris I can see the logic and I agree it is a trade that is improving the team. It is certainly better than doing nothing.
I like Harris ... that contract is an albatross..hunt down Hayward..in my opinion he's a better player, a better defender and he's expiring ... he's the kind of guy that could be a perfect fit
(11-01-2020, 12:01 AM)cow Wrote: [ -> ] (10-31-2020, 08:48 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Quote:Deciding whether to keep [b]Bogdan Bogdanovic[/b] will be one of the most important offseason decisions for new [b]Kings[/b] general manager [b]Monte McNair[/b], writes James Ham of NBC Sports Bay Area. The shooting guard is a restricted free agent, meaning Sacramento can match any offer he receives on the open market. ESPN’s Bobby Marks estimates that Bogdanovic’s new contract will start at $14MM to $16MM, which translates to a total investment of $63MM to $72MM on a four-year deal.
I'd love him at those numbers.
well if some people here want to deal for buddy hield, why not sign bogdan to an offer sheet with the same salary structure. he is the better player right? forces sac to do a sign and trade. we'd have to open space though which I dont think would be a very hard thing to do. would cost thj.
(11-01-2020, 03:47 AM)Mike lorenzo Wrote: [ -> ]hunt down Hayward..in my opinion he's a better player, a better defender and he's expiring ... he's the kind of guy that could be a perfect fit
Which are all the reasons why he would be probably more expensive. We can't just look at the player, we have to also take into account the price to get him.
(11-01-2020, 03:47 AM)Mike lorenzo Wrote: [ -> ]I like Harris ... that contract is an albatross..hunt down Hayward..in my opinion he's a better player, a better defender and he's expiring ... he's the kind of guy that could be a perfect fit
the problem with that is,
1. hayward wants a longer contract if he is traded. u will not get him as an expiry.
2. dont want to deal with danny ainge. you are gonna lose.
Can anybody remember how upset Monta was about Chandler Parsons mini-Max.
I don't want this kind of issue for our lockerroom for a minimal upgrade who might be a downgrade.
Try to imaging being DFS, everybody talking about what a bargain your contract is and then Tobi walking in.
Even if he is doubling DFS performance, (Spoiler: he isn't) he is paid ten times money.
He might be the tenth best paid player next year but the 60th best player.
(11-01-2020, 05:11 AM)Mapka Wrote: [ -> ]Can anybody remember how upset Monta was about Chandler Parsons mini-Max.
I don't want this kind of issue for our lockerroom for a minimal upgrade who might be a downgrade.
Try to imaging being DFS, everybody talking about what a bargain your contract is and then Tobi walking in.
Even if he is doubling DFS performance, (Spoiler: he isn't) he is paid ten times money.
He might be the tenth best paid player next year but the 60th best player.
So please name a max player who is 10 times better than DFS. These things are not linear. If jealusy is what your concern is, DFS is already totally unhappy by Wright and Powell salaries... This is a weak argument imho.
Plus, Mavs already let the guys know where their place is: "everyone is available for a trade".
(11-01-2020, 05:11 AM)Mapka Wrote: [ -> ]I don't want this kind of issue for our lockerroom for a minimal upgrade who might be a downgrade.
And please do explain, how a player like Harris is a minimal upgrade to Kleber or DFS. With all the respect to their effort on defense, their is just a collosall difference between them on the offensive side.