MavsBoard

(09-22-2020, 02:39 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]I think that´s exactly how the MBT thinks but I disagree. You don´t need to have expiring contracts or capspace in 2021 to sign a  max player. Are the Mavs afraid of a potential bad signing that is difficult to move next year? If that´s the case they are admiting a lack of trust in their own abilities.
That approach has been one of the main reasons (combined with a lack of interest in draft picks) why the Mavs suffered from a lack of assets in post championship era.

I don't think you're wrong about the Mavs completely underestimating other teams' abilities to dump contracts. Fish's "nuclear winter" angle turned out to be laughably stupid. I'm with you. 

But, I do think there is a point where the contracts become prohibitive. And, many of those teams you're thinking of had to do painful things, like attach picks to deals in order to dump those contracts.  I think the answer is in the middle, and I don't think there's anything wrong with proceeding cautiously, provided you're not standing still and the team is getting better.

(09-22-2020, 02:02 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-22-2020, 01:50 PM)Jason Terry Wrote: [ -> ]I guess my real point is: why is anything offensive related a top priority for us at all? I get that anyone we bring in needs to be able to shoot, but how do we need something “desperately” when we were the highest rated offensive team of all time?

Defense needs to be improved, for sure. The offense is farther along than the defense, for sure. 

It's not "either/or" though.

Yes, they had a statistically great offensive system. Do you truly think they had the best offense in the league, in a practical, last five minutes of the game against a good team sort of way? I don't. I think the offensive limitations had every bit as much to do with their close game woes as the defensive limitations. 

These great teams who are making it deep into the playoffs all have MULTIPLE players on the floor who can create shots for themselves or others. KP is GREAT, but he's not going to create for others like Jokic does, for example. At least, not in the system the Mavs are building. 

They wanted Kemba Walker. We know that. After watching how Carlisle sent Burke right to the front of the minutes line against the Clippers, and watching how much better that made the team play, I finally get WHY they wanted Kemba Walker. I see and understand the vision they had, which, again, I've admitted I was skeptical of at the time. 

To be fair, I don't think this player HAS to be a guard. But, they literally only had Brunson and Barea on the roster as possibilities to provide this all season. I think we can assume, because of the Kemba bid, that they thought this was a problem, and personally I still assume they feel this way.

---

Exactly what @"Scott41theMavs" said. I agree. 

When you get to the playoffs, the good teams can double or trap in ways where the first correct pass won't find an open shooter. So, you need a situation wherein Luka's pass can be more of a hockey assist. But, if the first pass finds a player who can't take the action needed to exploit the defense, your offense is going to hit a brick wall, at some point. 

This, essentially, is what sunk Houston and Milwaukee. I do not want to go down that path, personally.

---

@"Scott41theMavs" I'm right there with your thinking on this, but I'll push back on Curry. I think he's special in some ways, and I agree that he can floor the ball and create for himself surprisingly well. Better than Burke. But, I don't see him as the type who can do that while simultaneously looking for ways to set up OTHER players.

I think there’s more opportunity especially late in games for more defense to create offense. We couldn’t get stops last 5 min. KP is a guy that struggled offensively for large parts of the year. It was his defense that changed games for us and led to his own and team offense. Still, i think we all agree anyone that comes in should be able to shoot an open 3 and be good enough. 

I do think we have multiple guys and we add to that. KP, Luka, Curry, THj, Burke were all guys who could go off for 20+ pts in a playoff game. 

On Kemba I think we liked him and i think he would’ve been okay, but looking at him now? Maybe we dodged a bullet because he is a max player who is 4th best at most on his team

(09-22-2020, 02:39 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-22-2020, 06:40 AM)DanSchwartzman Wrote: [ -> ]As I've said before. There are three potential paths. 1. Plan Powder. 2. Plan Have it Both Ways and 3. Plan Go for it now (and Powder be damned).

I think that´s exactly how the MBT thinks but I disagree. You don´t need to have expiring contracts or capspace in 2021 to sign a max player. Are the Mavs afraid of a potential bad signing that is difficult to move next year? If that´s the case they are admiting a lack of trust in their own abilities.
That approach has been one of the main reasons (combined with a lack of interest in draft picks) why the Mavs suffered from a lack of assets in post championship era.

The thing is, in the past, the Mavs had to overpay bad players to come here - Parsons, Wes, Barnes, DeAndre. Now they have a player who is a draw. They have generally shown more discipline the last year or two, with Powell and Wright being their missteps, but even those guys have contracts that are tiny in comparison to Parsons, Wes, and Barnes. Sign the *right* guy with your MLE, and he's easily moveable if needed - as are Maxi, Curry, and DFS (although I would prefer not to move those guys).

Probably the only real way to #3 anyway is if they were to trade for CP3, or stupidly take on Horford or something like that. Most of those bad contracts are bad because the players aren't that hot, so it's hard to see, except arguably in the CP3 case, why we would do that, unless an amazing asset was coming with the bad contract. It might be good for us to assemble, for reference, the Tiny List of Players on Beyond-21 Bad Contracts Whom the Mavs Should Avoid in Trade. Bar that, I'm with you, basically. Plan Riley.

(09-22-2020, 02:45 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think you're wrong about the Mavs completely underestimating other teams' abilities to dump contracts. Fish's "nuclear winter" angle turned out to be laughably stupid. I'm with you. 

But, I do think there is a point where the contracts become prohibitive. And, many of those teams you're thinking of had to do painful things, like attach picks to deals in order to dump those contracts.  I think the answer is in the middle, and I don't think there's anything wrong with proceeding cautiously, provided you're not standing still and the team is getting better.

KP says hi.

(09-22-2020, 02:39 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-22-2020, 06:40 AM)DanSchwartzman Wrote: [ -> ]As I've said before.  There are three potential paths.  1.  Plan Powder.  2. Plan Have it Both Ways and 3. Plan Go for it now (and Powder be damned).

I think that´s exactly how the MBT thinks but I disagree. You don´t need to have expiring contracts or capspace in 2021 to sign a  max player. Are the Mavs afraid of a potential bad signing that is difficult to move next year? If that´s the case they are admiting a lack of trust in their own abilities.
That approach has been one of the main reasons (combined with a lack of interest in draft picks) why the Mavs suffered from a lack of assets in post championship era.

Exactly. All you have to do is not sign bad contracts. Get players on contracts that are on par or better than their play and you can easily sell them off when your big targets say “yes”!

(09-22-2020, 02:47 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]Sign the *right* guy with your MLE, and he's easily moveable if needed - as are Maxi, Curry, and DFS (although I would prefer not to move those guys). 

This ^^^

Good players on good contracts will always be movable, and can sometimes be used to help you move players on bad contracts, too.

I don't think anyone wants to see the Mavs do nothing, or do only things that expire in 2021. It's not Giannis or bust. But, to use Scott's MLE example above, IF the Mavs don't think any available targets are WORTH the MLE, then I'd be ok with them not using it. I'd much prefer that right now over a bunch of dumb spending. If we're talking about smart spending, I'm all for it!

(09-22-2020, 02:36 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-22-2020, 02:27 PM)Jason Terry Wrote: [ -> ]“Playmaker” and what people are asking for is a secondary ball handler when Luka is off the floor? Brunson did it at the highest level when he was on the court. Burke, a guy we got off waivers from a playoff team, filked that role just fine. Carlisle has turned OJ Mayo into that. He’s turned Delonte West into that. He could even make Dennis Smith Jr into that. We can find that. What we always lacked was PRIMARY PLAYMAKER. We have that with luka. Kidd passed for that role. Haven’t truly had it since Nash

Totally and completely agree with the emboldened statement. They have done the hard part, no doubt. 

But I'm not talking about a backup point guard. I'm talking about having MULTIPLE playmakers on the floor SIMULTANEOUSLY.

Good: Dragic AND Butler AND Bam. Murray AND Jokic. Tatum AND Walker AND Brown AND Hayward. 

Bad: Harden AND...  Giannis (almost miscast in the role, to begin with) AND...  

So, it's not about thinking Burke would be better than Brunson at backup PG, because who cares? I agree, Brunson has proven that he's on his way to handling that role just fine. It's about acquiring more well rounded players who can do more different things with their minutes. If Burke was 6''7" I don't think anyone would even be comparing the two players. Unfortunately, neither player is big, so it's naive to think there won't be overlap with their minutes.

Some of this issue goes away if KP is healthy, but I still think you need more decision making on the floor to win it all.

I take Luka and KP against any other duo in the NBA. This team is a championship contender as it sits with those two. They can do everything and are ideal. Yet we’ve seen them play, what, 20 min together in the playoffs? This first iteration of Luka’s mavs will live and die with health. We’re already close enough with the secondary players even without adding a 3rd star

I love Luka and KP. No complaints. The Mavs are incredibly fortunate. 

There IS still something missing there, imo. 

When people say you need multiple "stars" what I think they're really saying is that you need multiple people who can manipulate the defense and make decisions. 

If you think the Mavs have enough of that, fair enough, but other teams have more, and again, we KNOW the Mavs wanted Kemba for this exact reason. 

KP absolutely has a gravitational pull on offense that makes life easier for other players, and the dude can score from anywhere on the court. He's a stud, and the Mavs are so, so lucky to have him. When you watch him, do you see someone who can CREATE the way Dirk did? I'm not trying to criticize him, but I don't see that ability. Maybe he gets there, he is still so young.

(09-22-2020, 02:55 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]IF the Mavs don't think any available targets are WORTH the MLE, then I'd be ok with them not using it. I'd much prefer that right now over a bunch of dumb spending.

Sure thing. But the question is - does this make our FO look good or bad? Good because they (mostly) didn't sign bad contracts? Or bad because they don't find the good deals, which is what happened in the 2019 offseason and 2020 TDL. But since we have already been there, let me rather ask you this way:

Is 2020 offseason with Mavs not signing any contracts of significance a good or bad offseason?

(09-22-2020, 03:04 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I love Luka and KP. No complaints. The Mavs are incredibly fortunate. 

There IS still something missing there, imo. 

When people say you need multiple "stars" what I think they're really saying is that you need multiple people who can manipulate the defense and make decisions. 

If you think the Mavs have enough of that, fair enough, but other teams have more, and again, we KNOW the Mavs wanted Kemba for this exact reason. 

KP absolutely has a gravitational pull on offense that makes life easier for other players, and the dude can score from anywhere on the court. He's a stud, and the Mavs are so, so lucky to have him. When you watch him, do you see someone who can CREATE the way Dirk did? I'm not trying to criticize him, but I don't see that ability. Maybe he gets there, he is still so young.

KP can score around the rim in transition and pick and roll in a way dirk never could. He will never be the shooter or presence of dirk. KP is a much better paint defender than dirk and dominated. His big blocks for sure create offense and move team momentum. Again the question until he proves us wrong is health not ability. No player his size has ever played 1000 games

(09-22-2020, 03:18 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-22-2020, 02:55 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]IF the Mavs don't think any available targets are WORTH the MLE, then I'd be ok with them not using it. I'd much prefer that right now over a bunch of dumb spending.

Sure thing. But the question is - does this make our FO look good or bad? Good because they (mostly) didn't sign bad contracts? Or bad because they don't find the good deals, which is what happened in the 2019 offseason and 2020 TDL. But since we have already been there, let me rather ask you this way:

Is 2020 offseason with Mavs not signing any contracts of significance a good or bad offseason?

I get the point you're making, and agree with it. But...what if they identify the smart signings, but those guys would prefer other situations? 

Here's my off-season ranking:

1) Contracts of significance given to players who deserve them, significantly improving the team. (praise heaped by me)
2) some small, smart moves, but nothing of significance (still pretty happy, because the chess match isn't over yet)
3) almost no roster movement outside of the obvious (I'm not thrilled, but reserve judgement, because they might have good reasons)
4) Full MLE to Milsap and a trade for Tobias Harris (these are just bad examples, but at this point I'm part of the mob that's burning down the AAC). 

I get what you're saying, though. Making trades, drafting players and signing players is kind of like taking shots in the last five minutes of the game. Every team has to do it, and you have no choice but to judge them on whether those shots go in. I just think that in this rare set of circumstances, the Mavs have one year, maaaaaybe two, where they'll improve by doing very little. You try to accelerate things, of course, but not at the risk of ruining this. It's just my opinion.

---

(09-22-2020, 03:22 PM)Jason Terry Wrote: [ -> ]KP can score around the rim in transition and pick and roll in a way dirk never could. He will never be the shooter or presence of dirk. KP is a much better paint defender than dirk and dominated. His big blocks for sure create offense and move team momentum. Again the question until he proves us wrong is health not ability. No player his size has ever played 1000 games

Yeah, again, I don't disagree with any of that. Well, not much of it, anyway. I actually would argue that he's on his way to being every bit the shooter Dirk was, that he's LESS deadly in transition, and that Dirk was one of the best pick and roll screener scorers of all time (this includes the pick and pop, btw). 

But that isn't what I asked you. 

I'm saying in the last 5 minutes of a tight game, against a great team, do you see KP being the type of player who can initiate offense for himself and others? Can he CREATE offense?

When Dirk added that high post iso skillset to his game, he went to another level. I just don't see something like that with KP. Maybe he can develop something over the next couple of years.

(09-22-2020, 03:30 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]the Mavs have one year, maaaaaybe two, where they'll improve by doing very little. You try to accelerate things, of course, but not at the risk of ruining this.

Of course, I never said they need to push bad moves. But if there are again no significant moves in 2020, then 2021 free agency is basically our only (good) chance left. I wonder if executing good moves is a skill or luck?

Finally someone mentioning our clutch time play...if we get that above League average we could be a top 4 team...we need players who can close with Luka KP and DFS...1 defender who is bigger than DFS so he can guard SF/SG types and 1 dynamic playmaker who can get their shot and make it...

(09-22-2020, 03:37 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-22-2020, 03:30 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]the Mavs have one year, maaaaaybe two, where they'll improve by doing very little. You try to accelerate things, of course, but not at the risk of ruining this.

Of course, I never said they need to push bad moves. But if there are again no significant moves in 2020, then 2021 free agency is basically our only (good) chance left. I wonder if executing good moves is a skill or luck?

Probably a bit of both, just like everything else in life.

(09-22-2020, 02:22 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Very curious as to where that +16 stacks up against the all other Mavs who played during the series. 

Seth was the other superhero.....get ready for it...... 







+30.0 (!!!) for the playoffs. That was +31.2 offensively alone. 

Mavs O w/ Seth (173 mins): 123.0
Mavs O w/o Seth (120 mins): 91.8



Seth + Burke happened for 91 mins in the series and the Mavs were +21.2 with them together.

Seth might have been motivated by Pandemic P cheating on the woman who is now Seth's wife with a stripper whom PG is now with. Seth called PG a bitch ass after getting an and-1 against him.

(09-22-2020, 03:38 PM)ClutchDirk Wrote: [ -> ]Finally someone mentioning our clutch time play...if we get that above League average we could be a top 4 team...we need players who can close with Luka KP and DFS...1 defender who is bigger than DFS so he can guard SF/SG types and 1 dynamic playmaker who can get their shot and make it...

This is EXACTLY where I am. 

Make the "dynamic playmaker" someone competent enough on d to be called a two-way player, and make the "defender who is bigger than DFS" someone whose shot dictates that he'll be guarded or make you pay, and I think you're a contender.

(09-22-2020, 03:41 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Probably a bit of both, just like everything else in life.

So since Mavs have been on a "bad luck string" last two trade windows, we can hope for big things

Things we know went on and didn't happen (I will not count extensions in this review). I am not judging the outcome, I am just listing what was executed and what wasn't
Curry - successfully executed
Bobi - successfully executed
Wright - successfully executed 
Warren trade - fail
Kemba - fail
Miami trade - fail
Green - fail
Lee TDL trade - fail (we know they wanted to move him for Green in the Lakers for Morris deal)

(09-22-2020, 03:43 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-22-2020, 02:22 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Very curious as to where that +16 stacks up against the all other Mavs who played during the series. 

Seth was the other superhero.....get ready for it...... 







+30.0 (!!!) for the playoffs. That was +31.2 offensively alone. 

Mavs O w/ Seth (173 mins): 123.0
Mavs O w/o Seth (120 mins): 91.8



Seth + Burke happened for 91 mins in the series and the Mavs were +21.2 with them together.

Not shocked by this at all. I have complete confidence in Seth to take advantage of opportunities created by others drawing attention, and Burke playing well means that he was getting that, even when Luka was resting.

---

(09-22-2020, 03:49 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-22-2020, 03:41 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Probably a bit of both, just like everything else in life.

So since Mavs have been on a "bad luck string" last two trade windows, we can hope for big things

Things we know went on and didn't happen (I will not count extensions in this review). I am not judging the outcome, I am just listing what was executed and what wasn't
Curry - successfully executed
Bobi - successfully executed
Wright - successfully executed 
Warren trade - fail
Kemba - fail
Miami trade - fail
Green - fail
Lee TDL trade - fail (we know they wanted to move him for Green in the Lakers for Morris deal)

I think the Curry and Boban deals were great. Wright was unfortunate, but I understand what they were trying to do. 

I don't even remember anything about Warren - can you catch me up?

I didn't understand the Kemba thing at the time, but I'm absolutely on board, in hindsight. 
Ditto for Miami and Dragic. I think he would've helped them. 

Kamm will probably smack in the face for this one, but I hate Danny Green. I don't think he's got anything left. Did they REALLY try to get him AGAIN at the TDL? I must've missed that.

So if Seth and Trey rocked so much, how on earth the did the Mavs lose??


Well...



THJ. 

THJ ORating: 107.5 on, 120.1 off, -12.6
THJ DRtating: 125.2 on, 108.0 off, -17.2
THJ On (204 mins)/Off (89 mins): -29.8

Double pain.

---

(09-22-2020, 03:49 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Kamm will probably smack in the face for this one, but I hate Danny Green. I don't think he's got anything left.

DG was decent with LAL this year. He was AMAZING with TOR. 

But I agree, his tank is emptying quick. I am out on him.