MavsBoard

(10-09-2020, 03:14 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]Sacramento didn't want to keep him as their center. He signed for basically vet min with GSW and they traded him for basically nothing in half a year. Everyone believes he will take his PO for basically vet min (because you all think he is not worth more), yet all of this facts will somehow result in WCS becoming a high impact rotation player on a contender.

(10-09-2020, 09:53 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]DP was given up on in Bos in his rookie year, so why did we invest so much time and coaching effort on him when he should have been gone long ago?

(10-09-2020, 09:53 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Willie wanted to leave the Kings organization and who is going to blame him for that?

(10-09-2020, 09:53 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]GSW started tanking and gave him to the Mavs for a second rounder.

(10-09-2020, 09:46 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]@ItsGoTime I don’t follow your line of thought. I don’t think Powell NEEDS to prove he’s worth a big contract. He already has one. He has a job and role here. I assume he’ll get dropped right back into it, provided he’s healthy enough.

In the sense that there is a guy in WCS who, if he opts in, would be nipping at his heals (pun intended) for that job, yes, he NEEDS to prove he's worth the contract he has, that is, if he wants to keep his stay with the team secure (this also doesn't mean that the FO will for sure get rid of him if he doesn't prove it, but it would be the better/more prudent course of action and that will probably be weighing on DP's mind IMO).

If he’s a starter again, that means the team really wants to play with two bigs more often than not, and in that scenario, WCS will absolutely get minutes off the bench. 

Doesn't necessarily mean that at all. DP can start, but that doesn't mean they'll keep with that approach throughout the game. RC kept KP in the game to work with the 2nd unit and get some minutes separate from Luka once he settled into a more consistent rotation towards the end of the year. Any time for KP at C leaves that much less time for DP and Powell at the position, and I don't believe we'll see a lineup for much time whatsoever with DP and WCS in at the same time. When one of the two wins out, that player will in turn get the lions share of the minutes as the season comes to a close so the team can settle into their playoff rotation.

If both of them are coming off the bench, then yeah, WCS may have some lean times to start the season, and at that point, yes, the team might view Powell’s contract in a way that’s more similar to how it’s commonly thought of around here. Does that incentivize them to give WCS burn AHEAD of Powell? I don’t know, but I would think not, since they’d still be paying Powell more, he’s a team leader, etc.

This is what I believe is the concern with those saying WCS is the better player. I believe you in that I think the FO probably thinks that way, and that is pretty dangerous for a team trying to win playoff games. Shouldn't matter what a player is being paid to RC. The headache of figuring out why so and so is paid such and such amount while I'm being paid what I am is Donnie's job, not RC's.

But, and I can’t stress this enough, injuries (and other unexpected phenomena) WILL happen. This will all work itself out. It’s a good thing to be deep.

Yes, injuries n' such will happen, the hope is that they are minimal so as to not disrupt, in any meaningful way, the repetitions the eventual rotation players need to be ready for the playoffs. It will all work itself out, or, we'll cross that bridge...

I think the two guys most likely to lose minutes to WCS are Boban and Kleber. Boban because he’s not as versatile, and Kleber because while I think he’ll keep the minutes he spends playing WITH Powell, he’ll lose some of the minutes he got playing FOR Powell.

Maybe, I just believe one of the two is going to eventually win the lion's share and more importantly, the meaningful minutes over the other. I honestly don't care who it is, although I suspect it'll be WCS. As long as they win it fair and square and not because of who gets paid higher or any other off the court stuff that doesn't matter when we're trying to win a playoff game!

(10-09-2020, 10:39 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]or any other off the court stuff that doesn't matter when we're trying to win a playoff game!

(10-09-2020, 10:03 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]To be fair, not many #45 picks really make it and obviously Boston didn't want to invest in him. Mavs were rebuilding and they could afford to slowly develop him. Powell is a very positive presence. Obviously he showed progress and earned respect. Neither of WCS former teams thought that way about him. 

(10-09-2020, 10:03 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]Hm. "On June 28, 2019, the Kings extended a qualifying offer to Cauley-Stein in order to make him a restricted free agent. The qualifying offer was later rescinded to make more cap space for the Kings to land Cory Joseph 

(10-09-2020, 10:03 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]They could still keep their starting center for next season on basically vet min contract. Not like he was blocking their tanking efforts. And we are speaking about GSW, who had Bogut, McGee and Bogut again as their centers in last I don't know how many seasons.

(10-09-2020, 08:27 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I think Powell is criminally underrated around here, but I'm also really excited about WCS. Dude is long and FAST. My favorite part of his game is when he hits a full on sprint in transition. 

The guy who ends up being sad when WCS opts in is Boban, imo.

(10-09-2020, 09:08 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Why does this have to be Palestine vs Israel, Coke vs Pepsi, etc? Can’t we just be excited that it looks like the team is getting TWO good players back?

(10-09-2020, 10:48 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]Off the court part is very important in a winner building process.

(10-09-2020, 11:04 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Not when you already have JJB, Lee and Boban on the team doing it, not to mention Luka and KP being on the same page being the most important! Sure the players need to mesh, but they don't have to be paid extra to mesh. Once you have meshing players, the off the court stuff doesn't matter. If WCS doesn't mesh, let him go, similar to DW. Simple as that. No need to pay him more because he waives a towel in the right direction or is more exuberant when a big play happens.

(10-09-2020, 10:52 AM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]The Powell hate it strong here. I mean you got Sleeping Hero, Scott, and DougieFresh all coming at you at the same time. You're basically taking on the anti-Powell political party.

(10-09-2020, 11:23 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]That is so not true and it is so much simplified. And Powell is so much more than a guy who waives a towel in the right direction. Low and high energy guys have way different effect on teammates and team.

(10-09-2020, 11:36 AM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]I like Powell but I don´t like a torn achilles. Find me more than one player that reached his pre injury level again. Among all players that went down with a torn achilles the only one that ever came back and played close to his pre injury level was Dominique Wilkins. Most of the time bigman are impacted even worse than guards or wings. Thankfully Powell isn´t as old. On average players over 30 that suffer a similar injury are out of the league within 2 years.
You know it is bad when Wes Matthews is on of the examples for a succesful post injury career.

(10-09-2020, 11:24 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I didn't realize this would be such an involved, hot button issue. @ItsGoTime I love your passion. I think it's misguided in this instance. 

Dwight Powell got that contract because the team wanted him here to play a large role, for a number of reasons. I see nothing, other than the injury and the chance that he won't be the same player as a result of it, that leads me to believe their stance on him has changed. You don't have to like it, but you not liking it doesn't really change what they think, does it? 

The reason I brought up Powell starting as a factor was this: If it were up to me, I believe I'd be all in on a ONE BIG approach. That's where a guy like OPJ might fit in. The fact that they gave Powell that contract leads me to believe they viewed him as a starter, and while I thought for a while that maybe they'd changed their minds about two bigs, there are those pesky Harrell rumors, which, if true, would mean they very much do NOT agree with what I would do.

As you (and many of us) have pointed out, DP and WCS can definitely NOT play TOGETHER, nor can either of them play with Boban. They can both play with KP or Kleber just fine, however, especially on offense. So, if 60-80% of the game is meant to be played with two bigs, that absolutely frees up more minutes for WCS, especially in the regular season (he'd still need to earn the coach's trust to GET them, of course). I think he'd be in direct competition with Boban for the role of 4th big, or second big off of the bench, in that scenario, and I think it's pretty likely he'd win. If he's playing well, I can see him taking ALL of Powell's rest minutes eventually, even the ones Kleber gets now (Kleber can actually play with Powell OR instead of Powell. He's a nifty gadget to have). 

If the plan is to start DFS and an OPJ type next to KP (I admit that's what I thought best after the Clippers series, but I'm starting to believe the Mavs don't, which is one of the reasons we got into it about OPJ the other day) then that would signal that they believe that's their main, default approach. In that scenario, Kleber still gets minutes WITH KP, as would Powell, but far fewer of them, imo. And, they would BOTH probably still be ahead of WCS on the list of KP bench minute getters. There is very little room for WCS to break through in this scenario, imo. 

The off season hasn't even started yet, so many things could change, but if they start the season with all five of those guys (Porzingis, Powell, Kleber, WCS and Boban) on the roster, I'd take that as a STRONG indicator that they're planning on using two bigs whenever they can. Yes, in either scenario (starting with two bigs or one), they of course want to maintain the flexibility and option to go the opposite way when needed, but that's not really germane to this conversation. Salary structure wise, they have to decide on one or the other as the MAIN option, and that is very relevant when thinking of either Powell or WCS salary value. THEY saw Powell as a really cheap starter when they signed him. Right now, THEY probably see WCS as a slightly expensive 3rd center, as he's more than a minimum contract. He makes less than Boban, so it's possible they are thinking "hmmmm" about BOBAN'S future here. I'll give you that. 

What I definitely DO NOT see is a situation wherein Powell is at 100% health and finds himself competing with WCS for his own job. If he's still hurt, or if the injury robs him of some of what made him effective, then sure. But if he's as good as he was early this year, there's not a chance in hell. I think WCS is good insurance for what Powell brings that they obviously value very highly. Had he been on the roster since training camp, I think he would've seamlessly moved right into Powell's role (though off of the bench, probably) when Powell got hurt. 

Now, what MIGHT end up proving you correct about all of this is the looming 2021 situation. If they decide at any point between now and the trade deadline to go all in on cap space, I'd think Powell would need to move, especially since the guy they'd really want in that scenario would absolutely be coming to take his job. In that case, yes, having WCS here (and on a small, expiring contract) is going to come in handy. 

But without that variable? Just comparing the players and saying "which do we like better for our team?" Man, I just can't look at it from any angle and not reach the conclusion that it's Powell's job to lose, and that the Mavs want him to succeed.

(10-09-2020, 11:48 AM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]The thing that is a possible linchpin in finding answers to these questions, is the answer to another question. Can KP and DP learn to play together such that KP is not relegated to spot up shooter status, while the primary action of the offense revolves around the Luka/DP pnr? Can the Mavs build an offense, with KP and DP on the floor at the same time, that utilizes everyone's strengths, and gives KP a large enough role?

(10-09-2020, 11:48 AM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]I'm curious about how the KP surge post Powell injury impacts the Mavs thinking and how it impacts what we, regardless of what the Mavs think, feel like is a best case lineup scenario. Does post-DP-injury KP suggest that KP and Powell should not play together much? Does post-DP-injury KP suggest that the one big model is the way to go for our starting lineup, and that Powell and Maxi should be our two big bench? And also does KP's injury, combined with all of the above, suggest that KP's minutes should be kept under 30 or so and that KP and DP should basically be a platoon, with each having a chance to play with Luka? That's an expensive platoon, and may limit each player's minutes too much, so maybe the platoon wouldn't be a total platoon. Maybe they just limit their minutes together with something like KP 30, DP 28, where they just play 4 minutes together. 

The thing that is a possible linchpin in finding answers to these questions, is the answer to another question. Can KP and DP learn to play together such that KP is not relegated to spot up shooter status, while the primary action of the offense revolves around the Luka/DP pnr? Can the Mavs build an offense, with KP and DP on the floor at the same time, that utilizes everyone's strengths, and gives KP a large enough role? 

I do not know the answers to any of these questions, but I think that what actually happens depends on how these questions get answered in training camp and on the court in real games.

(10-09-2020, 11:56 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-09-2020, 11:48 AM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]The thing that is a possible linchpin in finding answers to these questions, is the answer to another question. Can KP and DP learn to play together such that KP is not relegated to spot up shooter status, while the primary action of the offense revolves around the Luka/DP pnr? Can the Mavs build an offense, with KP and DP on the floor at the same time, that utilizes everyone's strengths, and gives KP a large enough role?

I think answer to all of these questions has to be yes. Mavs will mix a little bit of everything. We have to take into account KP was generally bad in the first part of the season, which is of course logical coming from his injury. I think too much is given into that playing with Powell was the most important factor for that.

(10-09-2020, 11:56 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]I think answer to all of these questions has to be yes. Mavs will mix a little bit of everything. We have to take into account KP was generally bad in the first part of the season, which is of course logical coming from his injury. I think too much is given into that playing with Powell was the most important factor for that.

(10-09-2020, 11:58 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Personally, NO, I don't think KP can become an initiator with Powell (or WCS) on the floor. Unless, of course, you stick Luka in the corner and run 4-5 pick and rolls (lolololololol). 

One of the main reasons the Luka/Powell thing worked so well is because the Mavs have maybe THE best stretch big in the league on the floor with them. That's GREAT and all, but at that point you're using your most highly paid player in a role that Kleber could handle just fine. You really can't run the 2 man stuff as well with Luka/KP while Powell is out there, because he's just not a serious shooting threat. Nor is WCS, regardless of how many instagram stories we see of him shooting 3's. That, to me, is a crossroads. Ditto for the idea I presented a few weeks back about KP developing a Dirk like high post iso game. Even if he could do it, having Powell out there makes it tougher, spacing wise. 

(10-09-2020, 11:24 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I see nothing, other than the injury and the chance that he won't be the same player as a result of it, that leads me to believe their stance on him has changed. You don't have to like it, but you not liking it doesn't really change what they think, does it?

(10-09-2020, 11:24 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]The reason I brought up Powell starting as a factor was this: If it were up to me, I believe I'd be all in on a ONE BIG approach. That's where a guy like OPJ might fit in.

(10-09-2020, 11:24 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]As you (and many of us) have pointed out, DP and WCS can definitely NOT play TOGETHER, nor can either of them play with Boban. They can both play with KP or Kleber just fine, however, especially on offense. So, if 60-80% of the game is meant to be played with two bigs, that absolutely frees up more minutes for WCS, especially in the regular season (he'd still need to earn the coach's trust to GET them, of course). I think he'd be in direct competition with Boban for the role of 4th big, or second big off of the bench, in that scenario, and I think it's pretty likely he'd win. If he's playing well, I can see him taking ALL of Powell's rest minutes eventually, even the ones Kleber gets now (Kleber can actually play with Powell OR instead of Powell. He's a nifty gadget to have). 

(10-09-2020, 12:36 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]To me, now is the time to discuss what we ourselves would like to see happen, not what we think they'll do.

(10-09-2020, 12:09 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]One possibility may be someting like this. The Monte/Dirk/BWright/Tyson offense performed with record setting efficiency (before that Rondo showed up), and they did so by creating space. But the space they created was more about towards the basket gravity instead of primarliy shooting created gravity. I'm wondering if they want a KP/DP lineup to perform a bit like that. Maybe they scramble the defense because when Luka crosses center court the defense is trying to figure out which pnr they're about to attached with, Luka/KP or Luka/DP. Maybe the Mavs think Powell's 3 is coming along such that KP can hit 3's off of the DP pnr and DP can hit 3's off of the KP pnr. And imagine if we finally get that other ball handler, or that Seth is that other ball handler. You have endless pnr options with Luka and Seth both playing off of DP and KP, and additionally, something I'd love, Luka setting picks for KP and Seth. It could become a beautiful anti-Harden work of art. These are just my musings. I don't know how much reality is here.