MavsBoard

(10-31-2020, 02:17 PM)DanSchwartzman Wrote: [ -> ]Harris isn't worth what he's making and fair pay is always better than over-pay.  But, the harm of adding Tobias is mainly to Cuban's wallet.  Not to future opportunities.

So much this. Unfortunately, same goes for Philly. The only harm of having Toby is on their wallets. And it doesn't look like they are huge concern for them.

Number 1 priority for Philly will be moving Horford and I guess this will cost some serious assets to accomplish. While I was entertaining the idea of trading for him in first half of the season, I am out now.

(10-31-2020, 08:12 AM)DanSchwartzman Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-30-2020, 09:41 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]Harris seems like a great dude, but his contract is atrocious.  Even if they took Powell and Wright, I'm going to need more than a 2nd and Korkmaz for that trouble.

20-21:  34.3m
21-22:  35.9m
22-23:  37.3m
23-34:  39.2m!

...a lot more.

I wonder if the team looks at those numbers on a net basis?  In 20/21 Harris is a wash against the outgoing salary.  In 20/21 you net out what you were going to pay Wright and Powell ($20mm) and Harris costs $16mm.  He's $26 million in 22/23 (netting just Powell) and he's a massive $39 million expiring deal in 23/24 (the same time KP expires).  So, on a four year basis, the extra net cost of Harris is $55mm or $14mm per year.  

The next question is whether he's worth the extra cost (and if not, does Korkmaz and a pick make up the difference).  The recent rankings from The Athletic put him in the same 38-80 tier as Gallinari, Hayward, Aldridge, Oladipo, Porter and Conley.  Harris is the youngest and among the healthiest the last two seasons.  He's also the highest paid by a wide margin.  All of those guys have warts but that is what you are probably looking at as it is hard to find a deal that makes sense for a top 38 guy.  To me, I'd want to convince THJ to opt-in before the draft so that the 21st pick could be brought into the picture instead of the future 2nd (maybe he agrees since he'd be going to a contender).  The value charts say 18 + 21 equals about #7 or so.  Now your talking.

Regardless of who gets paid what, the bottom line question is which team is better?

KP/T. Harris/DFS/Kork/Luka

or

KP/Powell/DFS/THJ/Luka

Both teams still have WCS/Maxi/No one/Curry and Brunson off the bench.  There is also the pick(s), the MLE and possibly a trade of Jackson/31 to add to the roster.  Bear in mind also that Harris would work as a straight up trade for Giannis next summer.  If you are Milwaukee, do you let him go to Miami for free or do you take back Harris and stay competitive while he and Middleton are still in their primes.  Last thing, Korkmaz is an Excel guy if anyone cares.

I think we all forgot to factor in the trade kicker.  If you value flexibility, Harris destroys that as getting off his contract would be difficult compared to getting off of the Powell/Wright.  I like Harris a lot as I think he'd fit it swimmingly into our locker room culture and could be a solid contributor but his contract is insane.  It just seems like a desperate move and we shouldn't be desperate or else we'll end up where the Bucks are now.  To even entertain this trade, I'd want a future first.  And Speaking of the Bucks...

Their strategy if Giannis leaves is an interesting question.  I could see it going either (rebuild or trying to stay competitive) and Harris might be a fit for either of those scenarios. If it were me, I'd rebuild and absorb bad contracts to try and stock pile picks.  That means I'm selling Khris and Bledsoe and I'll absorb some terrible contracts (Wall and/or Harris) to try and stockpile picks (something the Mavs sorely lack).  

p.s.  I love you @"Kammrath"

(10-31-2020, 02:40 PM)JamesConway Wrote: [ -> ]Btw: how about Yogi? Smallish guard, defends well, good shooter, can playmake a bit but doesnt need the ball much.

Would make sense Imo as a cheap guard-addition.

I think there is a ton of options to fill bench guard spots. At the moment, we already have Brunson, Curry and Wright under contract. So as long as one or more of those are not gone, there is really not much need for any additional bench guard.

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(10-31-2020, 02:49 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]Khris

If Giannis leaves Milwaukee in FA for a team not named Dallas, I would try to trade for him. We would have 2025 and 2027 FRP and Milwaukee would be rebuilding in this scenario.

My favorites from @"omahen"'s list.

40. McCullom: no way (Portland would demand way too much)
23. Middleton: no way (if Giannis leaves, a trade might be possible - he would be a good fit)
20. Jrue: might be traded, but seems too expensive. Possible as 2021 FA

I'd be on the phone with the Bucks if Giannis does leave.

(10-31-2020, 03:00 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]I'd be on the phone with the Bucks if Giannis does leave.

Yeah, but you have to wait till 2021 for this. Are you staying pat till then?

(10-31-2020, 03:01 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-31-2020, 03:00 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]I'd be on the phone with the Bucks if Giannis does leave.

Yeah, but you have to wait till 2021 for this. Are you staying pat till then?

Depends on the opportunity.  MBT is going to put themselves in a position to have room for Giannis in the off chance he wants to come to Dallas.  It's part of the reason why I'm far from in love with taking on Harris contract.  Sure, a Harris for Giannis swap would work from a contract perspective, but if Giannis goes to LA or Miami, I think having that Harris contract would prevent you from picking up the table scraps (Middleton) should the Bucks decide to blow it up.

Personally, I think the odds of Giannis coming here are incredibly low.  I'm open to improving the team anyway possible but we do need to be careful as we don't have a lot of draft capital or the depth to trade away our desirable assets in order to erase mistakes. So far, our mistakes (Wright and Powell) have been fairly minor and easily correctable.

How about this desperate proposal, just for something new to discuss?

Powell+Wright+Curry for Horford, Korkmaz (or Thybulle) and #21

We basically don't add to 2021 cap, so we are approximately one Kleber trade or one Horford dump away from max spot. Horford is probably still best player in the trade. We add a couple of assets. 

Philly gets their shooter, back up PG and back up center. They don't save in 2020 tax money (but good luck getting less salary back for that awful Horford overpay).

I can't believe what I'm reading in this thread. I think everyone needs to drink some warm milk a take a long nap. Maybe bad trade ideas are a symptom of Covid-19, and if so, several of you should get tested.

Horford's stats are trending downward, he's 34 and has three years left on his deal averaging 27m. Maybe if he were a better rebounder, but that's going to be a no from me.

I would 100% prefer to sign Trey Burke to the lowest deal possible, draft the BPA at #18 and report to training camp than to make a trade where the PRIZE is Tobias Harris. That move is the spitting image of the Juwon Howard deal. It would represent the idea that Cuban/Donnie had learned absolutely NOTHING the last time around, and that we are doomed to live in a mediocrity loop forever, regardless of the player around whom they're building.

(10-31-2020, 03:24 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]Horford's stats are trending downward, he's 34 and has three years left on his deal averaging 27m.  Maybe if he were a better rebounder, but that's going to be a no from me.

Well, outside of Curry you would not give anything really valuable and you do get the assets back. Its not like Horford is the prize of the deal.

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(10-31-2020, 03:28 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I would 100% prefer to sign Trey Burke to the lowest deal possible, draft the BPA at #18 and report to training camp than to make a trade where the PRIZE is Tobias Harris. That move is the spitting image of the Juwon Howard deal. It would represent the idea that Cuban/Donnie had learned absolutely NOTHING the last time around, and that we are doomed to live in a mediocrity loop forever, regardless of the player around whom they're building.

And your plan for 2021 is? Giannis or nothing? Actually, this sounds a lot more like "we haven't learned anything from past mistakes" Dallas move.

(10-31-2020, 01:27 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]Great work. And considering the smoke signals of the Mavs wanting to move up in the draft, and being fine taking on big salary if its for a star, there are only 2 teams that fit that. Spurs, and Celtics. Maybe the Mavs are trying to grab either Hayward, DeRozan, or Aldridge. I'm for any one of them as a 1 year trial.

 It´s time LMA comes home to Dallas to win his 'ship. He still put up 19/7 with a career shooting year at age 35. Next year, he´ll be 36 and ready to sign with a contender for a small exception. DeRozan is probably still too young for that. He´ll ask for a bigger deal. Could still make sense, if we find two young energy "studs" in the draft, their veteran craftiness might be a nice fit.

Doncic/Brunson
DeRozan/Curry
DFS/Bey
LMA/Kleber
Porzingis/Azubuike

Ah what am I saying, it´s still...

GIANNIS

(10-31-2020, 03:29 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]Well, outside of Curry you would not give anything really valuable and you do get the assets back. Its not like Horford is the prize of the deal.

It's more that he's an albatross that you'll probably want to jettison in a year and that will cost you assets. I guess the question would be, what's more expensive to get rid of in a year: Horford or Powell/Wright. MBT also have a lot to prove when it comes to drafting and this years draft isn't anything to do backflips over. That deal just feels like we are swapping one problem for another without a lot of upside.

(10-31-2020, 03:29 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]And your plan for 2021 is? 

My plan is not to make my team or situation WORSE, for any reason. That's the only plan I need to talk myself out of a deal for Tobias Harris's contract. It has nothing to do with Giannis. I would literally PREFER bringing the same team back. I do NOT think the team gets better, even incrementally, by trading for Harris.

(10-31-2020, 03:44 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I do NOT think the team gets better, even incrementally, by trading for Harris.

We will have to agree to disagree on this one. I think Harris is a very good player. Overpaid, yes. Bad, no. Clearly much much better number three guy than anything we have on the roster. I am not saying this is my number one option, but it beats doing nothing for me. Especially if we are talking Powell and Wright being included in the trade.

(10-31-2020, 02:49 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]p.s.  I love you @Kammrath

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(10-31-2020, 03:28 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]a trade where the PRIZE is Tobias Harris.

(10-31-2020, 03:53 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-31-2020, 03:44 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I do NOT think the team gets better, even incrementally, by trading for Harris.

We will have to agree to disagree on this one. I think Harris is a very good player. Overpaid, yes. Bad, no. Clearly much much better number three guy than anything we have on the roster. I am not saying this is my number one option, but it beats doing nothing for me. Especially if we are talking Powell and Wright being included in the trade.

I don't think Harris is bad, either. I DO think he's an on-court fit here. I wish Brand and the Philly ownership group hadn't given him that deal (btw, I've been absorbing a ton of Philly content since they hired Morey, and the Tobias Harris deal is 100% what led to the owners admitting they have now idea what they're doing and hiring "professionals" according to consensus). 

But, I'm FINE with leaving Kleber in that spot right now AND giving Wright another chance to fit in, if Harris is the alternative. Or, seeing what you could get for just Wright. Or, a million other things we've discussed. 

I just think taking on a salary like that one to get a non-difference maker is the very definition of desperate. Once Luka is highly paid and you're for sure an over the cap team, sure - let's talk about moves like that. Until then, I don't NEED to make that move, so I'm not going to do it. 

You are free to disagree with me, but there is literally nothing anyone can say that takes that guaranteed money out of the equation. 

If the Mavs were to make such a deal, I would cheer for him and hope for the best, but I have to be honest: that would signal the beginning of very underwhelming era around here, imo.

(10-31-2020, 03:28 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]... than to make a trade where the PRIZE is Tobias Harris. That move is the spitting image of the Juwon Howard deal.  

I loved the Juwon Howard trade.  He became Raef and Van Exel.  When you don't have much in the cupboard, sometimes you have to take a multi-step approach.  Some of our most successful Dirk-based teams are full of guys who came from the so-and-so trade and so-and-so came from the whats-his-face trade.

(10-31-2020, 03:28 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I would 100% prefer to sign Trey Burke to the lowest deal possible, draft the BPA at #18 and report to training camp than to make a trade where the PRIZE is Tobias Harris. That move is the spitting image of the Juwon Howard deal. It would represent the idea that Cuban/Donnie had learned absolutely NOTHING the last time around, and that we are doomed to live in a mediocrity loop forever, regardless of the player around whom they're building.

The Juwon Howard deal was a bad one? Without looking at Wikipedia, my memory is that Juwon begat Van Exel and Raef, Van Exel and Raef begat Jamison and Walker, Walker and Jamison begat Terry, Stackhouse, and Harris, Harris begat Kidd, Stackhouse begat Marion, and meanwhile Dampier begat Tyson, and that all that begat a championship.

I miss Mark's spending ways and hope they're back. But not for Horford or Harris unless we get a mountain of assets back.

(10-31-2020, 04:05 PM)DanSchwartzman Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-31-2020, 03:28 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]... than to make a trade where the PRIZE is Tobias Harris. That move is the spitting image of the Juwon Howard deal.  

I loved the Juwon Howard trade.  He became Raef and Van Exel.  When you don't have much in the cupboard, sometimes you have to take a multi-step approach.  Some of our most successful Dirk-based teams are full of guys who came from the so-and-so trade and so-and-so came from the whats-his-face trade.

But they DO have enough in the cupboard, if they use it more intelligently. Cap Space is MORE in the cupboard than Harris on that deal. Your situation is BETTER with nothing than it is with Harris (and btw, I think they value contracts they have are worth more than some people here. I wouldn't call them nothing AT ALL). 

Yes, they made incremental deals that STARTED with the Howard trade, but they were all out of necessity once that decision was made. Every deal got them further down the road, but along the way there were insufferable moments of tire-spinning and WASTED TIME (Jamison/Walker, anyone?). 

I don't want to sign up for another decade where you're locked into "what mediocre player on a bad deal can I flip MY mediocre player on a bad deal for?" We've seen that approach. It led to one title, and frankly, they were lucky to get it. They have experience doing things that way, which is fine, but until Luka signs his rookie max extension, there remains a chance of something better.

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(10-31-2020, 04:10 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]The Juwon Howard deal was a bad one? Without looking at Wikipedia, my memory is that Juwon begat Van Exel and Raef, Van Exel and Raef begat Jamison and Walker, Walker and Jamison begat Terry, Stackhouse, and Harris, Harris begat Kidd, Stackhouse begat Marion, and meanwhile Dampier begat Tyson, and that all that begat a championship.

I miss Mark's spending ways and hope they're back. But not for Horford or Harris unless we get a mountain of assets back.

This is my entire point. That's what I'd be trying to avoid. Btw, I've been making this point for months here. The above "chain" of turning bad money into slightly less bad money - that's all Mavs fans seem to understand. It's a BAD way to build a team. 

Scott, you're the president of the "better do what it takes to keep Luka here" club, right? Go back to wikipedia and see how long that step-by-step bad contact transformative process took. Think Luka would've been here that long if he had been in Dirk's place?