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(09-28-2020, 02:57 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]But Indy could use another guard to play off off Brogdon, especially one that can come off the bench and provide good minutes.

Insert Brunson then. Indy is not far from tax and I bet they like their back up PG (McConnell, Holiday) much better than Wright.

(09-28-2020, 02:57 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]Jackson is more or less a flie

Unnecessary, because he is not needed for matcing salaries. THJ for Dipo works straight up salary wise

(09-28-2020, 02:57 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]I wouldn't throw in our 2 most valuable role players for 1 year of Oladipo. Especially since we don't know how Dipo will actually be over an 82 game season.

You are not trading for player like that if you think he is meh. And Indy will not be selling at meh price. I don' really think the picks we have are all that great. Boston could offer #14 as proposed in the original piece. Plus Hayward is way better than THJ. Milwaukee would certainly break a bank for DIPO in their perhaps final chance season. Than you have Nets, Denver who are all in win now and are perhaps just one move away.

Point being - I don't think Dipo will be cheap. So you either believe in him, perhaps see he will resign and you are prepared to pay because of that. Or you move on.

(09-28-2020, 03:05 PM)Tyler Wrote: [ -> ]On the floor, that gives Indy three good and reasonably-priced assets which is not a bad return for two more expensive guys who apparently are on their way out.

Omg, of course your offer is bad. You are offering 3 bench guys for 2 legit starters. If Indy is trading them, it doesn't mean they are just dumping them. #18 and #31 don't move the needle here.

(09-28-2020, 02:15 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]he wasn't all that good this year

Not true.

He was ABSOLUTELY....

[Image: giphy.gif]

(09-28-2020, 03:22 PM)Tyler Wrote: [ -> ]I do. Personally I think he's at least as good of a fit on the court as either Kleber or Powell with KP. The spacing, rebounding, and defense between KP and Turner would be excellent. And Carlisle has raved enough about Turner whenever they play Indy that I'm confident he'd find a way to maximize his skills.

But reasonable people can disagree. What don't you like about it?

Can they play together on offense? YES, and it probably is an upgrade from either DP or Kleber, since he does at least pretty well at what both of them do really well, only in the package of one person. Having said that, I think you'd have two high dollar players who kind of cancel each other out a little. There's synergy there, but neither of them can really create offense the way Jokic and Bam do. This is something that worries me about the fit with KP already, but to play he and Turner together is pointless, imo. No matter what you do with that, you're still 100% dependent on Luka, with one of them involved while the other one is relegated to "celebrity spacer" status. I'm of the opinion that the next offensive acquisition needs to be someone who can help by STARTING plays, not only FINISHING them. They also need to be an off-ball fit with Luka, of course.

Can they play together on defense? NO. It's great to be able to play two bigs, but if your salary structure dictates that you MUST, I think you're setting yourself up for major pain in the modern NBA. I think KP is likely to be the slowest guy on the court in about 60% of their games next year. You counteract that quite a bit with his size if you scheme correctly, but to play TWO centers at once seems INSANE to me.

I think the front court piece you need is RoCo, Grant...someone 6'7"-6'9" who is bigger than DFS but still an appropriate matchup for guys like Kawhi, Lebron, etc. My 2nd choice would be someone 6'4"-6'8" who closely resembles a young Trevor Ariza or Danny Green who would then push DFS into the larger forward role.

Kleber is GOLD because he's a two way guy who can be the first "swiss army" big off of the bench. He can play small ball 5 when KP gets pick and rolled off of the floor, OR he can play NEXT to KP. Turner could obviously do that, too, but at his status and pay range, neither he or the team would be happy with him in that role.

Again, love the player, and Carlisle has spoken highly of him in the past. I could actually be talked into a deal that replaces KP with Turner, if there was enough coming to Dallas.

(09-28-2020, 04:03 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-28-2020, 02:15 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]he wasn't all that good this year

Not true.

He was ABSOLUTELY....

Right, and would anyone like to guess what I've heard today (from multiple Pacers fans) as a justification for his trouble fitting into the team this year?

"With Brogdon on the team now, he had to play off ball way too much. It wasn't a fit for his game."

Does that sound like the guy who would be ideal next to Luka? I mean, I WANT a guy who can play on ball, because I think they need it, but the ideal guy has to be willing to do BOTH. If Oladipo is convinced that his way back to relevance is to go full Donovan Mitchell, do we want him here?

(09-28-2020, 04:29 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]If Oladipo is convinced that his way back to relevance is to go full Donovan Mitchell, do we want him here?

In all fairness, I've been really vocal about my belief that people will want to come and play with Luka, and I stand by that. BUT, a guy who views himself as a fringe all star and thinks he needs THE BALL to further his career would probably not be excited about it. I'm not writing Oladipo in that column yet, but it is certainly possible that he belongs there.

Would love to get Booker or Donovan Mitchell, too, but if I'm their agent I don't want them anywhere NEAR this team.

I can see a world where Oladipo feasts as the creator while Luka sits and looks amazing under RC but I wouldn't give up anything to get him.

(09-28-2020, 04:29 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Right, and would anyone like to guess what I've heard today (from multiple Pacers fans) as a justification for his trouble fitting into the team this year?

"With Brogdon on the team now, he had to play off ball way too much. It wasn't a fit for his game."

Does that sound like the guy who would be ideal next to Luka? I mean, I WANT a guy who can play on ball, because I think they need it, but the ideal guy has to be willing to do BOTH. If Oladipo is convinced that his way back to relevance is to go full Donovan Mitchell, do we want him here?

https://media.giphy.com/media/UB2GxvYsswbBu/giphy.gif

(09-28-2020, 04:29 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Again, love the player, and Carlisle has spoken highly of him in the past. I could actually be talked into a deal that replaces KP with Turner, if there was enough coming to Dallas.

I read this and went to work. I'm much more amicable to this trade than what I previously posted in the other thread:

Bos out:
Brown/Hayward/Smart/Theis/2020 #14/2021 First/2023 First

Bos in:
Lamb/Oladipo/Powell/KP

Ind out:
Turner/Lamb/Oladipo

Ind in:
Hayward/Theis/THJ/Bos 2021 First

Dal out:
KP/Powell/THJ

Dal in:
Turner/Brown/Smart/Bos 2023 First

I think I would make that trade and then figure out how to get OPJ at the TDL or in 21.

Luka/Brunson/Burke
Smart/Curry
Brown
DFS/Kleber
Turner/WCS/Boban

Edited with the strike throughs and underlines to show my work and make this trade-able to go through after the moratorium is lifted, not during the draft.

I love all these trade scenarios that has Dallas shipping out the best player in the trade for at best a lateral replacement.

KP has the potential to be a top 8 NBA player who is elite at defense and has unlimited range. The only thing holding him back is his body and the injuries he's gotten were contact injuries. Any player can get injured at any time. It's apart of the game.

Mavs would be taking 2 steps back shipping KP out in any deal that doesn't have them getting back a multi-time-in-their-prime-all-star.

If the Mavs can get Oladipo without giving up a star or key role player(Curry, Maxi) I think it's a risk worth taking.

(09-28-2020, 06:20 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]I love all these trade scenarios that has Dallas shipping out the best player in the trade for at best a lateral replacement.

KP has the potential to be a top 8 NBA player who is elite at defense and has unlimited range. The only thing holding him back is his body and the injuries he's gotten were contact injuries. Any player can get injured at any time. It's apart of the game.

Mavs would be taking 2 steps back shipping KP out in any deal that doesn't have them getting back a multi-time-in-their-prime-all-star.

I mean Jalen Brown just finished a season as the 2nd or 3rd option on a team in the ECF. He averaged 20/6/2 in the regular season and 22/8/2 in the playoffs. He is also on of the best wing defenders in the league. He is 23 years old. Looks like a multiple time allstar in his prime to me.
I probably prefer KP because of his upside and unique skill set but it´s dishonest to act like his injuries are not concerning.

I am sorry for starting the entire conversation yesterday because it is not going to happen. There is no way that any team would be willing to give up as much for KP. I think we are greatly overrating his trade value around the league. It´s not like the Mavs gave up a lot to get him and even though they clearly robbed the Knicks I don`t think his trade value is in the AD range. Boston wasn´t willing to part with Smart, Brown and picks for AD. They certainly won´t do it for KP.

The on court value of a healthy KP is simply bigger than any trade value a currently injured KP could ever net in return.

(09-28-2020, 07:41 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-28-2020, 06:20 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]I love all these trade scenarios that has Dallas shipping out the best player in the trade for at best a lateral replacement.

KP has the potential to be a top 8 NBA player who is elite at defense and has unlimited range. The only thing holding him back is his body and the injuries he's gotten were contact injuries. Any player can get injured at any time. It's apart of the game.

Mavs would be taking 2 steps back shipping KP out in any deal that doesn't have them getting back a multi-time-in-their-prime-all-star.

I mean Jalen Brown just finished a season as the 2nd or 3rd option on a team in the ECF. He averaged 20/6/2 in the regular season and 22/8/2 in the playoffs. He is also on of the best wing defenders in the league. He is 23 years old. Looks like a multiple time allstar in his prime to me.
I probably prefer KP because of his upside and unique skill set but it´s dishonest to act like his injuries are not concerning.

I am sorry for starting the entire conversation yesterday because it is not going to happen. There is no way that any team would be willing to give up as much for KP. I think we are greatly overrating his trade value around the league. It´s not like the Mavs gave up a lot to get him and even though they clearly robbed the Knicks I don`t think his trade value is in the AD range. Boston wasn´t willing to part with Smart, Brown and picks for AD. They certainly won´t do it for KP.

The on court value of a healthy KP is simply bigger than any trade value a currently injured KP could ever net in return.

Bingo.

KP's value is immense. When healthy, there are few players that can match the type of stuff he can bring. I wasn't trying to downplay his health concerns. I am at a medium level of concern for the future. Should KP get injured in a bad way again, especially if its non-contact, then I'd change my tune about shipping him out. But as of now it can go either way imo. There have been plenty of superstars that had injury woes that turn it around.

There are some where they still even have injury problems but their talent level is worth it. I think KP is a unique enough player, and his talent level so high that the Mavs shouldn't cut loose on the experiment yet.

I mean heck. After December, KP averaged close to 24/10 for the rest of the season. In the bubble alone he put up 31/11 on 48/39/80. He's shown he can still be a superstar. All he needs to do is get on the court.

I don't want to go on a list of KP haters, because I love the dude and I'm extremely happy the Mavs were able to get him. Part of me thinks he's a perfect fit with Luka.

But, I'm concerned by a couple of things:

1) Unlike Bam and Jokic, he doesn't really help to RUN the offense. Given that he has been maxed, I think this puts the team in a strained situation with their roster building. His ability to score off of the catch gives him an unbelievably strong gravitational pull, making the geometry easier for Luka and other drivers. But, I'd feel so much better if we had seen evidence by now that he has some sort of high post iso game from which he could generate shots for himself and others. I'm not saying he can't do this, just that we haven't seen much evidence of it to this point. I hope Carlisle is thinking of ways to get him involved in the offense to that extent right now, and if they can do that, I'll feel a lot better.

2) I'm VERY concerned about his defense. I think he can be a great rim protector, but that bubble game against Portland really opened my eyes. They kept isolating him with the side pick and roll with only the two offensive players (Lillard and whoever KP was guarding) on that side of the floor. KP was in the tightest drop coverage, which really didn't even take the jump shot away from Lillard, and Dame STILL blew past him like he was a statue about 4 times in a row. The injuries aren't going to help with this, and I think he'll get slower and slower as the years go by.

I am NOT saying that I want him gone, or have decided he doesn't have a chance to be a huge plus. I'm just concerned.

Is there a big in the league who can guard Lillard?

Is there a non-big for that matter?

At his level of offensive skill, I feel like a Dirkesque high post game where he has the option to shoot, drive or pass is appropriate, but the fact that we haven't really seen it leads me to believe Carlisle doesn't trust him in that role. Not yet, at least.

Once something like that is in place, I think you just figure out how to mitigate the foot speed on defense as best you can, because at that point you really would have two superstars.

(09-28-2020, 08:46 PM)Branduil Wrote: [ -> ]Is there a big in the league who can guard Lillard?

Is there a non-big for that matter?

No, but there are a ton who can do better than giving him his CHOICE between a straight line drive to the basket or a wide open pull up jumper on several, consecutive plays.

Frankly, every team who made the 2nd round had at least one of them. Kleber and Powell are BOTH better in that situation, tbh.

I just did a quick google search to see if there was video of the game I'm talking about, and I found an entire article about it. I hadn't seen this before, but here's everything I'm talking about, described well. The third video example down is the segment of the game I remembered. 4-5 plays in a row, all on the left side of the floor. It was BAD.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/how-d...azers-win/

I've been saying it since I found this place, and nobody is listening:

The new "stud defensive center" is the guy who can pressure on the pick and roll and not get blown by. This is much more important than "rim protection" or at least what fans mean when they use that phrase.

Bam and Giannis can do this at 7', but if you have to play a 6'9" guy to combat this, you're better off than you are with Gobert, imho.

Maybe this was just a really bad night for KP, but if it becomes a recurring problem I think the Mavs' defensive struggles are just beginning.

BTW, how Mike Malone couldn't figure out how to punish Vogel for playing Howard in the Western finals the way that Portland punished Carlisle for playing Porzingis in that game is beyond me. Even at his age, Howard is probably better in those situations than KP, but he's also DUMB. A good coach would've exploited that and gotten that goon glued to the bench instead of on the court thugg life-ing Jokic.

(09-28-2020, 06:20 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]I love all these trade scenarios that has Dallas shipping out the best player in the trade for at best a lateral replacement.

KP has the potential to be a top 8 NBA player who is elite at defense and has unlimited range. The only thing holding him back is his body and the injuries he's gotten were contact injuries. Any player can get injured at any time. It's apart of the game.

Mavs would be taking 2 steps back shipping KP out in any deal that doesn't have them getting back a multi-time-in-their-prime-all-star.

Did you read IGT's trade? We get a solid replacement for him who is probably a better perimeter defender and otherwise has a mini-KP game, an all-star-level guy in Brown who can create for himself a bit, and perhaps the best possible player to put next to Luka. Love it for the Mavs, makes sense for Boston, but Indiana probably takes a step back, and thus also takes a step back from the bargaining table. Given KP's injury concerns, that trade would be a no-brainer for the Mavs, but it's moot because Indiana doesn't do the proposed trade. While I think that Boston would strongly consider that proposed trade, dirkfan is generally right - KP has far more value on-court to the Mavs than he does in trade.

I feel like we should at least try out one playoff run with Luka and KP healthy before we decide to try and trade him.

(09-28-2020, 11:39 PM)Branduil Wrote: [ -> ]I feel like we should at least try out one playoff run with Luka and KP healthy before we decide to try and trade him.

I agree, and again, I'm not trying to be the card carrying founder of the KP hate club. I think he's got something.

I just hope Carlisle is busy trying to fix the things I'm worried about. I'm sure he is.

Yo... thought I'd pop in and say hello. I don't have much time these days to come around too often.

I just read through the last few days of posts here... As far as guys like Trez are concerned, I don't hate them but why are we settling for guys like that? In any other free agency year, guys like that would be so far down the list. It's just super weak this year.
That doesn't mean we should settle.

I think the biggest issue tho with guys like that is they clearly aren't a long term starter. We got enough role guys. We need quality starters to fill out the rest of the team.

And on Dipo... I get the health concerns, the contract concerns, fit concerns.... And I think that's a problem just about anywhere he'll be traded to. I don't think his trade value is really all that high. 1st rounder and a decent young prospect seems entirely reasonable when you consider those factors and the teams that would be possibly in on him. I don't think your really bad teams trade for him so it's playoff teams and that list is kind of small due to the list of teams that would have the need and space for him being pretty small.

I'm concerned about his fit more than anything based on his struggles with a ball dominant guard. That being said, if the price is right I'm very interested. There is a decent enough chance it could be a really nice fit.

But I don't think this is the first guy we are going to see hit the trade block. Hayward is the other obvious one already being discussed. It's a matter of time for the Jrue rumors to start. Expiring deal, he isn't the future and I think his trade value is actually quite a bit more than Dipo.

Harris or Horford I think have to be on the block in Philly.
Any number of Milwaukee guys are on the table as I think they will be desperate to make some moves.

I expect Lowry to get moved.... It's going to cost too much to run it back for the Raptors and they clearly need to rework the roster. Ibaka might be a guy worth looking at in a SNT deal. I'd much prefer him to Harrell. (not super excited about anyone like that tho).

Gordon seems to be definitely available in Orlando.

The point in all that.... I think that one of these names is likely are big offseason move and then signing a guy to the MLE.
I could see Millsap maybe going for that much and getting kicked to the curb by Denver to make room for Grant. (I also could see Harris or Barton being dealt btw)

I would not be surprised to see us deal both of our picks in a trade right before the draft either.

I think Powell, Wright, Jackson and Brunson are the most likely current Mavs to not be on the team next year. The first 3 due to their contracts and being able to salary match while retaining THJ. And Brunson due to possible inclusion in a deal as an asset that is somewhat expendable. I don't think the Mavs look to move him. But if they trade for a guard, it would be logical he would have a decent chance to be sent back.

Anyways... That's my thoughts on how I see the offseason as of now.

(09-28-2020, 11:39 PM)Branduil Wrote: [ -> ]I feel like we should at least try out one playoff run with Luka and KP healthy before we decide to try and trade him.

Why?

This is more of a philosophical question. You already know he is a great player. This has everything to do with replacement value and risk management. It´s simply easier to find a good center than a great two-way guard and wing.

It´s a question of perspective.

Luka
Smart
Brown
DFS
Allen

Luka
Oladipo
DFS
X
Porzingis

Capspace left would roughly be the same. Team 2 might have more peak potential, but it comes with significant risks attached.

Also I´m pretty confident, IF a superstar becomes available a package around Smart, Brown and Allen would be neat the top of the food chain. Not to mention, we´d still have Kleber, DFS and Curry on value deals.

omahen

Kammrath

KillerLeft

Kammrath

KillerLeft

IamDougieFresh

ClutchDirk

ItsGoTime

SleepingHero

Branduil

dirkfansince1998

SleepingHero

KillerLeft

Branduil

KillerLeft

Scott41theMavs

Branduil

KillerLeft

cjeter24

Mavs2019