(09-04-2020, 08:36 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ] (09-04-2020, 08:20 AM)DanSchwartzman Wrote: [ -> ]If you have Giannis money going into 2021, might you spend it on two $17mm players?
Tier 2 guys (not looking at RFA) would be Hayward, Porter, Schroeder, Oubre, Fournier, Dinwiddie and Richardson. I guess a couple of them might be available this off season (yeah, totally with you on how much easier would be to write summer).
Plus, if this is your target list, you can
1. Spend some money in 20 and go for one of these guys in 21
2. Go for two of these guys in 21
3. Trade for one or more of these guys in 20 to maintain flexibility AND get their Bird rights.
If the choice is Max for VO or split a Max between Dinwiddie and Porter, give me the latter.
(09-04-2020, 08:51 AM)Mavs2019 Wrote: [ -> ] (09-04-2020, 12:21 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Scott, before the injury, Powell was ELITE as a vertical, rim running threat, and was probably the second most important contributor to the offensive rating we've been discussing all season.
Our offense didn´t miss a beat without Powell.
Totally backwards way of looking at it. Duh, our MAX Superstar got rhythm and touches. That doesn't negate the fact that Powell's On-Minus-Off the last three seasons has been +6.7, +3.4 and +4.9. That Sh!t doesn't grow on trees. Neither do O-Ratings in the 130's, PER's of 20 and WS/48 of .200. His TS% is off the charts and he scores 1.68 points for every shot he takes. It is unbelievable the way Powell's virtues are are underrated here.
BTW, the team was 25/15 when Powell played. That pace would have been good enough for 4th in the West. Since we finished 7th instead of 4th, it is hard to say the team "didn't miss a beat".
(09-04-2020, 08:49 AM)DanSchwartzman Wrote: [ -> ]Spencer Dinwiddie, who I am VERY interested
Interesting. I have quite the opposite feeling about him. He needs ball in his hands and is not a very good shooter or defender. Can he play offball?
If I could choose 2 out of those listed I would go after Richardson and Porter. Perhaps Schroeder instead of Richardson.
Problem without bird rights - if a certain player has a very good season, his value will probably go above 17 mil. Especially in an offseason, where half of the league will have cap space. If he has a bad season - will he still be on that list for us? So I prefer trading for him and have more control about his future.
(09-04-2020, 08:49 AM)DanSchwartzman Wrote: [ -> ] (09-04-2020, 08:36 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ] (09-04-2020, 08:20 AM)DanSchwartzman Wrote: [ -> ]I think WCS would be nuts to leave.
I am looking at it a bit differently. WCS might have problem getting minutes in Dallas. They didn't play him even when KP was out. And once Powell comes back, he could be literally buried on the bench. Perhaps Powell will be back by the start of next season (who knows when that will be). This is why it could make sense for him to go somewhere, even if for vet min, where he would actually play.
Interestingly, WCS is represented by ROC Nation. They also represent Trey Burke. Spencer Dinwiddie, who I am VERY interested in as a 2021 FA, Danny Green, the Morris brothers and Kevin Porter are also clients. The reason I mention Porter is I like the idea of dealing Jackson for Cedi and Cleveland dealing Cedi is helpful to Porter's future earnings.
I like the move to get Cedi, since he also seems to be on a value contract. Would you envision something like Jackson + 31 for him? Could you make it bigger by adding Wright + 18 in a S&T for Thompson somehow? Curious to know what your thoughts are on Thompson as he could be good starter level insurance for games when KP rests (but not to the level that PHI did with Horford).
I’m in the minority that does NOT want to trade Powell (let’s see him healthy for a full year with this team) and the minority that wants WCS to opt in. I think having him for a training camp will be incredibly helpful to his on court production and chemistry, and hopefully he won’t have any family emergencies that cause him to miss long periods of time. (I believe he missed 6 games due to a family death very shortly after the trade which doesn’t make it any easier to integrate yourself mid season)
In terms of THJ player option, what if he opts out to take a bigger, one year deal with a *wink wink* “we’ll sign you again next summer but we want to pay part of that now so that you don’t eat up more of our cap space next year” type deal. Assuming he opts in and Dallas extended him in 2021 for 3/45, what if they gave him 5-10 of that this offseason? Just a thought, and obviously things could come up that would result in trading him or not resigning him, but it’s an interesting idea.
Burke in Dallas is similar to JJB in Dallas. When Barea left to play in Minnesota, he didn’t have the on court success because their style didn’t fit him as well as Dallas did. Burke recognizes this, especially after being cut by Philly and having eyes on Dallas immediately after because he knows this is where he is the most productive. Ultimately, I think this persuades him to come back, but I’m concerned at how much Dallas will pay him when they’ve already got Brunson (who I don’t trade unless it’s for a high level starter or 2021 first, most of my hypothetical trades will try to gain a first in a deep draft)
Good discussion here. I think any idea that Powell is going to get moved somehow is fantasy. Players with 3 years, 30+ mil on their contracts and torn achilles aren't easy to be moved.
Powell is overpaid (and now injured) but I think when he comes back he will still do Powell things now off the bench next to Maxi and still be effective. He had a lot of athleticism and vertical to begin with so even with a shortened achilles I think he will still have enough left over athleticism to do what he needs to do.
I otherwise agree mostly with @"KillerLeft" that it's likely Mavs run back a roster pretty similar to the one they have now.
I've never had a huge issue with Powell the player (I've had an issue with Cuban's obsession on winning the Rondo trade through him). I wish he was a better defender than he is, but his contribution to the team as a rim runner is for sure valuable. How valuable? I don't think it's $10M or more valuable. I don't like that it took him 2-3 years to get to where he is and believe it wouldn't take that long to get someone else who already has the athleticism and work ethic up to speed.
In talking about rim running in general, I think it's a great offensive feature to wow fans during the season, but in the playoffs when defenses tighten up and game plans can be created to easily stop it, it becomes much less useful. These are some things I think that give the why for those saying he needs to be moved or he needs to have a lesser role off the bench (my position, except it's really hard to see $10M on the bench).
I agree because of Cuban's obsession with Powell and the Rondo trade that he will 99.99% be on the team next year. Doesn't mean we shouldn't hope for or believe there is an upgrade out there for that $10M.
(09-04-2020, 10:46 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]I've never had a huge issue with Powell the player (I've had an issue with Cuban's obsession on winning the Rondo trade through him). I wish he was a better defender than he is, but his contribution to the team as a rim runner is for sure valuable. How valuable? I don't think it's $10M or more valuable. I don't like that it took him 2-3 years to get to where he is and believe it wouldn't take that long to get someone else who already has the athleticism and work ethic up to speed.
In talking about rim running in general, I think it's a great offensive feature to wow fans during the season, but in the playoffs when defenses tighten up and game plans can be created to easily stop it, it becomes much less useful. These are some things I think that give the why for those saying he needs to be moved or he needs to have a lesser role off the bench (my position, except it's really hard to see $10M on the bench).
I agree because of Cuban's obsession with Powell and the Rondo trade that he will 99.99% be on the team next year. Doesn't mean we shouldn't hope for or believe there is an upgrade out there for that $10M.
Harrell wrecked us in the first round with his rim running. We couldn't guard him, especially when KP wasn't on the floor. I think Powell provided a similar problem for other teams and thus would also be an asset in the playoffs off the bench. That's provided he can still be as effective as he was pre-achilles. We will see. We know that Powell had insane efficiency metrics so it will be easy enough to measure whether he can operate near that level of efficiency next season.
(09-04-2020, 10:52 AM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]Harrell wrecked us in the first round with his rim running. We couldn't guard him, especially when KP wasn't on the floor.
Excuse me? Harrell? Did you actually watch the games? Harrell was extremely bad and Boban ate his lunch. I don't really remember any rim runnings. Perhaps I missed one or two, but certainly he didn't wreck us. He played 14 minutes (4 points) in game 6 and 17 minutes (2 points) in game 4.
(09-04-2020, 10:46 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]In talking about rim running in general, I think it's a great offensive feature to wow fans during the season, but in the playoffs when defenses tighten up and game plans can be created to easily stop it, it becomes much less useful.
Totally agree with this. Powell would be pushed off the floor in playoffs. Defense would just leave him completely open and dare him to shoot while also prevent any rim runs.
(09-04-2020, 11:00 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]Quote:SBJ
Harrell wrecked us in the first round with his rim running. We couldn't guard him, especially when KP wasn't on the floor.
Excuse me? Harrell? Did you actually watch the games? Harrell was extremely bad and Boban ate his lunch. I don't really remember any rim runnings. Perhaps I missed one or two, but certainly he didn't wreck us. He played 14 minutes (4 points) in game 6 and 17 minutes (2 points) in game 4.
I was going to reply until I read yours. I think Harrell dominated us in the regular season, but was mostly a no show in the playoffs. He had his moments in the playoffs, but those weren't as a rim running threat. It was mostly on the offensive boards and put backs.
@"omahen" I guess we watched different games bc I saw a KP-less Mavs team that couldn't stop Harrell, especially in transition.
Regarding Powell I was looking at some Demarcus Cousins video from 18-19 and 19-20 to see how different he looked. He has a good 30 pounds on Powell so his lift wasn't amazing in 18 but you can definitely noticed a difference. We know Cousins wasn't great on defense post-achilles but he was still very effective offensively. You don't lose your footwork and craftiness so I expect that to still be there just without the highflying dunks.
(09-04-2020, 10:52 AM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ] (09-04-2020, 10:46 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]I've never had a huge issue with Powell the player (I've had an issue with Cuban's obsession on winning the Rondo trade through him). I wish he was a better defender than he is, but his contribution to the team as a rim runner is for sure valuable. How valuable? I don't think it's $10M or more valuable. I don't like that it took him 2-3 years to get to where he is and believe it wouldn't take that long to get someone else who already has the athleticism and work ethic up to speed.
In talking about rim running in general, I think it's a great offensive feature to wow fans during the season, but in the playoffs when defenses tighten up and game plans can be created to easily stop it, it becomes much less useful. These are some things I think that give the why for those saying he needs to be moved or he needs to have a lesser role off the bench (my position, except it's really hard to see $10M on the bench).
I agree because of Cuban's obsession with Powell and the Rondo trade that he will 99.99% be on the team next year. Doesn't mean we shouldn't hope for or believe there is an upgrade out there for that $10M.
Harrell wrecked us in the first round with his rim running. We couldn't guard him, especially when KP wasn't on the floor. I think Powell provided a similar problem for other teams and thus would also be an asset in the playoffs off the bench. That's provided he can still be as effective as he was pre-achilles. We will see. We know that Powell had insane efficiency metrics so it will be easy enough to measure whether he can operate near that level of efficiency next season.
My point od view says the exact opposite - we could abuse the clips every time Harrell steped on the floor by matching him with Boban - when we lost KP Zubac was killing us. Thus I think Powell can do this to others or let them choose to get destroyed by Luka/KP
(09-04-2020, 11:18 AM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]I guess we watched different games bc I saw a KP-less Mavs team that couldn't stop Harrell, especially in transition.
9/3 in 18 min. He had one good game. The blowout loss in game 5. Over the entire series he was a big negative for the Clippers. They had zero rim protection when he was on the floor and the Mavs scored at will.
The Mavs outscored the Clippers by 31 points when Harrell was on the floor and that number is really doing him a favor because he was +34 in game 5. For comparisation: Ivica Zubac was +78 for the series. The Mavs really strugged to score when he was in the paint. Especially Luka.
(09-04-2020, 11:52 AM)Mapka Wrote: [ -> ]when we lost KP Zubac was killing us. Thus I think Powell can do this to others or let them choose to get destroyed by Luka/KP
Zubak was kinda killing us with or without KP. He's too big for Kleber and KP and he would have been too big for Powell as well. Powell is a bit more scrappy with other bigs, but he doesn't have enough bulk to move them, just like the other 2. That is why we need someone with size that can match up with those types that are in the league still so it doesn't wear KP down even more. As far as on offense, in the right spurts, DP would be really good in the playoffs. That is why he is better suited to come off the bench.
(09-04-2020, 11:18 AM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]@omahen I guess we watched different games bc I saw a KP-less Mavs team that couldn't stop Harrell, especially in transition.
First you said rim running, now its transition. So which is it? I guess plenty of others responded how Harrell actually played, so I don't need to repeat the facts.
(09-04-2020, 12:16 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ] (09-04-2020, 11:18 AM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]@omahen I guess we watched different games bc I saw a KP-less Mavs team that couldn't stop Harrell, especially in transition.
First you said rim running, now its transition. So which is it? I guess plenty of others responded how Harrell actually played, so I don't need to repeat the facts.
I guess I was thinking ab his overall play. Powell is a similar player to Harrell in my view altho Harrell is much more productive and will be getting an even bigger contract.
I don't really understand the idea that Harrell isn't a guy you can play in the playoffs. He is going to be playing 20 mpg on a team that's probably going to the NBA finals.
Furthermore what's the larger point, that we should bench Powell in the playoffs? I suppose that could happen but I doubt it. If the argument is we should dump Powell somewhere that ship has definitely sailed. If we thought he would be hard to move before he is definitely not going to be moved now.
(09-04-2020, 12:40 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ] (09-04-2020, 12:16 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ] (09-04-2020, 11:18 AM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]@omahen I guess we watched different games bc I saw a KP-less Mavs team that couldn't stop Harrell, especially in transition.
First you said rim running, now its transition. So which is it? I guess plenty of others responded how Harrell actually played, so I don't need to repeat the facts.
I guess I was thinking ab his overall play. Powell is a similar player to Harrell in my view altho Harrell is much more productive and will be getting an even bigger contract.
I don't really understand the idea that Harrell isn't a guy you can play in the playoffs. He is going to be playing 20 mpg on a team that's probably going to the NBA finals.
Furthermore what's the larger point, that we should bench Powell in the playoffs? I suppose that could happen but I doubt it. If the argument is we should dump Powell somewhere that ship has definitely sailed. If we thought he would be hard to move before he is definitely not going to be moved now.
Harrell and Powell are both very productive players - I'm there with you.
But they depend on matchups and Boban is the Nightmare for Harrell: he can't bully him like he normally does and the lack of rim protection is killing the clips on the other side.
(09-04-2020, 12:40 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]I guess I was thinking ab his overall play. Powell is a similar player to Harrell in my view altho Harrell is much more productive and will be getting an even bigger contract.
Similar in that they're both energy guys, but I think the comparison mostly ends there. Not similar in the way they use their energy IMO. Harrell plays bigger than he is, which is important cause he can bang with many of the bigs in the league. Powell isn't on his level in that regard. Harrell is a rebounder esp on the offensive end, Powell is not. Basically Harrell is a bigger Kenneth Faried while DP is another Brendan Wright (slightly upgraded).
If people actually think Harrell is similar to Powell, then I guess I understand now why they like him so much. I don't think they are all that similar at all.
(09-04-2020, 12:40 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]Furthermore what's the larger point, that we should bench Powell in the playoffs? I suppose that could happen but I doubt it. If the argument is we should dump Powell somewhere that ship has definitely sailed. If we thought he would be hard to move before he is definitely not going to be moved now.
This is changing the argument. Those showing the flaws of Powell are just rebutting the group saying how much they like him and why.
I wish Powell was a $5-8M/yr player who is a spark plug off the bench. Instead, he is a $10M/yr starter. Because he isn't that IMO, and especially after the injury, I don't mind finding someone who might find some use for him, if we can't find that, we're stuck with that contract and what is hopefully a fingers crossed recovery. I know very well that the FO doesn't see it the way I do, doesn't mean I just sweep my convictions away.
Powell isn't going to start, that ship has sailed. He should be a 20 mpg player that comes off the bench with Maxi. They were both effective together.
I think what you will see in the starting lineup next year is some kind of wing, probably one that can guard multiple positions and take the spot Maxi was occupying in the starting lineup.
Dwight Powell cant be a starter, due to the complete lack of defense. There is not way we are going to win anything with him in the lineup.
Furthermore, he is a player completely dependent on his athletic ability. If he loses a step or even a tenth of a step, and gets slower, it will hurts his game significantly. All of his game relies on rim rolling, everything else he is very bad at. If his injury impacts his jumping etc, he is of no value. This is in contrary to players that rely on skill, Luka Dirk etc. You can remove one of their legs, they will still be hard to guard.
I think we need to have something more in sight and higher ambitions than playing Powell at PF. We need to assemble a team around Luka to win the championship, perhaps even create a dynasty, there is potential for this. Forget Powell, we need a much better player. One that can rim roll + play terrific D, and preferably also add more other skills. Obviously the best here would be Giannis. But we need to have high standards for this position. Powell is a good bench player that brings energy.
Remember, defense wins championships. We have plenty on offense, but we also saw against Clippers we need to stop great all star players if we want to win in playoffs. We need to add complete players, not one dimensional players. The one dimensional are good as bench players. Such as Boban (great offense, no defense and no rim protection) and Powell (excels offensively in one area, plays zero defense). This unfortunately applies also to THJ and Curry, that are mainly offensive players. The only players that might offer 2 way contribution (other than Luka and KP) are Maxi and DFS. Maxis shooting didnt work in the last series, and he could not guard Kawhi despite being a great defender.
I think we need to look at players that are multi dimensional and can add on both sides of the floor, and fit in offensively in the system, while still playing D, and make us tougher team to breakdown. We have also seen that both Luka and KP can get impacted mentally by the other teams "enforcer". Need to work that out and get better at, but this experience will be a huge factor for Luka and KP to understand that and not commit the same mistake again. It adds experience to make a deeper playoff run next season. However, we need more defense and all around skills for this.
What about Derrick Jones Jr for the MLE? Is he worth it? More than that?
I never watch MIA but apparently he was a target in 2019. Only 23/24, super athletic but cant shoot at all.
Could he be the third wing/forward defender alongside Maxi and DFS?
(09-04-2020, 04:19 PM)JamesConway Wrote: [ -> ]What about Derrick Jones Jr for the MLE? Is he worth it? More than that?
I never watch MIA but apparently he was a target in 2019. Only 23/24, super athletic but cant shoot at all.
Could he be the third wing/forward defender alongside Maxi and DFS?
We know Mavs like him and the Heat aren't going to want to spend a lot of money to keep him. He is gettable for the right price.
I know OPJ has been kicked around. Would you all do OPJ for THJ and Wright (might have to give up pick(s) as well)?