Imagine trading 25 year old big man with injury concerns for a 35 year old PG who's best days are likely behind him.
I like Lowry. Would not give up KP for him.
EDIT: and before you guys say you're making the trade for cap space, cap space cannot suit up. Trading KP for air would be a mistake because no one is guaranteed to come here.
I'd rather go to NOP and keep hounding them for a KP for Ingram swap first and try to sign Lowry.
(07-26-2021, 11:59 AM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]Imagine trading 25 year old big man with injury concerns for a 35 year old PG who's best days are likely behind him.
I like Lowry. Would not give up KP for him.
EDIT: and before you guys say you're making the trade for cap space, cap space cannot suit up. Trading KP for air would be a mistake because no one is guaranteed to come here.
I'd rather go to NOP and keep hounding them for a KP for Ingram swap first and try to sign Lowry.
I think you make the KP-for-Lowry swap with (verbal) commitments on the cap space it opens up. It really would be KP for Lowry and Holmes (and the ability to retain THJ). Do you feel good about that? I do.
(07-26-2021, 10:59 AM)TXBamanut Wrote: [ -> ]I literally think that trading KP for a 33-34 year old Kyle Lowry is nuts. I really do.... It seems that these KP trades just are going down the hole of "well, if we can get a can of beans for him, let's do it." Oh my word. (I don't think that Kyle Lowry is a can of beans, but I'm talking about the direction these trades are heading toward.)
https://media.giphy.com/media/xUOxfaABfk.../giphy.gif
I would assume it would be KP for Lowry and draft capital right? I would not do KP for Lowry straight up
(07-26-2021, 11:59 AM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]I'd rather go to NOP and keep hounding them for a KP for Ingram swap first and try to sign Lowry.
I think Dallas would jump on that trade with or without any consideration to signing Lowry. That's a no-brainer.
New Orleans, though?
(07-26-2021, 12:10 PM)VintagePejav2 Wrote: [ -> ]I think you make the KP-for-Lowry swap with (verbal) commitments on the cap space it opens up. It really would be KP for Lowry and Holmes (and the ability to retain THJ). Do you feel good about that? I do.
Yep. Any move to trade KP for air (cap) would need to be done with other moves in place.
If JRich opts in, you need to dump him in order to sign THJ, because Holmes means you are operating under the cap.
I still prefer Ball or Powell to THJ. Probably Fournier too.
(07-26-2021, 10:59 AM)TXBamanut Wrote: [ -> ]I literally think that trading KP for a 33-34 year old Kyle Lowry is nuts. I really do.... It seems that these KP trades just are going down the hole of "well, if we can get a can of beans for him, let's do it." Oh my word. (I don't think that Kyle Lowry is a can of beans, but I'm talking about the direction these trades are heading toward.)
I like Kyle Lowry and I'd love to have him on this team, but I'm not giving him $25-30 mill/year, as Woj predicts his contract will be.
https://twitter.com/TheNBACentral/status...50017?s=20
I think if we come out of the off-season with Lowry as our big signing, we are in for Luka leaving in 3 years...and if we trade KP for it, and are running the superstar duo of Lowry and Luka, I wouldn't blame Luka for leaving at all. I don't dislike Lowry at all, but I don't want to over-rate him either.
To me, we are into the full on "grass is always greener on the other side of the fence" scenario for a lot of people with KP. I think a lot of people have gotten so irritated with him that it's literally more emotional than intelligent right now. I'm reminded of a quote...from all people, Jerry Jones. "Don't let your money get mad." The meaning is to warn against talking yourself into emotional driven decisions that are not factually smart...and I think that's exactly where a lot of people on this board are with KP.
I think trading KP for a player in their 20s (anywhere) that is a clear cut #2 to be here long-term is totally acceptable, but trading him for a dude on the last leg of his career, starting a max deal, just isn't wise, to me. I could completely be wrong, but I can't go there with you.
I'm with you on this to a point. IF we were to get Holmes or a good replacement with Cap money/secondary trade AND extract a couple firsts from Tor in the deal (very doubtful, however, the biggest target for a first is a 2023 so we can have our full arsenal of picks back), I'd be ok with this type of deal AT THE END of doing the other stuff, not before. Too many years of getting kicked in the Gortats to leave anything to chance.
Either that, or, making a KP and some other player(s) trade for Lowry and one of Siakam/Boucher/Anunoby. Something like KP and DFS for Lowry and Boucher then having the money left over to sign Holmes or some other PF/C type.
Basically I'm good with trading KP by looking at an overall offseason value, but if the actual trade doesn't fit high compensation for him, I want picks included to make it up.
Reading this it is definitely the grass is greener time of year. Pulling a Jerry Jones quote made me laugh.
(07-26-2021, 12:24 PM)Mavs03 Wrote: [ -> ]I would assume it would be KP for Lowry and draft capital right? I would not do KP for Lowry straight up
I still feel like people are too hung up on Lowry. The real question is if you could turn KP/JRich into Holmes/Powell, would you do it?
Its funny that there was not as much pushback when it was suggested that we trade KP for Kawhi if he decided to come here, but they are really the same thing. Trading KP for air.
I can understand peoples hesitation with trading away KP for cap space. We did the same thing with Barnes and then completely shit the bed when it came time to spend the cap space. This time it (should) be different. We traded Barnes at deadline and were not able to spend the cap until next offseason. In this case, we can (hopefully) get deals done verbally before pulling the trigger on the trade. Then its not about whoever we traded him for to generate the air, its about who you signed with his cap space.
Assuming Mavs go all in, trade for 2023 FRP and make 2022, 2024 and 2026 available for trade. Based on that, which players would you use them for? Taking into account only the ones realistically available and the ones coming from teams committed to a rebuild (our players are not really interesting for contending teams).
I guess Lillard and Beal are no brainers. How about guys like Siakam, Grant, Wood, Ingram and Isaac? Would you bet team future on them?
One interesting move I would consider - trading Powell and a couple of those picks for Sexton. The advantage is we would get a scorer and keep all cap space.
Has somebody already posted this somewhere?
Hollinger's BORD$ estimates of value (for next season). Might have been before the Kawhi surgery. It will be interesting to see what actual values teams are willing to pay.
- Kawhi Leonard (PO): $51,792,994
- Chris Paul (PO): $36,236,813
- John Collins (restricted): $25,595,936
- Kyle Lowry: $25,239,628
- Mike Conley: $24,495,329
- Duncan Robinson (restricted): $23,924,678
- Lonzo Ball (restricted): $22,483,316
- Danny Green: $19,312,328
- Devonte' Graham (restricted): $19,073,555
- Richaun Holmes: $18,269,033
- Jarrett Allen (restricted): $16,013,853
- DeMar DeRozan: $15,322,968
- Andre Drummond: $15,099,657
- Bruce Brown (restricted): $14,846,932
- Kelly Olynyk: $14,198,223
- Evan Fournier: $13,385,953
- Normal Powell: $12,965,791
- Spencer Dinwiddie: $13,076,247
- Tim Hardaway Jr: $12,853,601
- Daniel Theis: $12,763,833
within $1.2 million of Theis: TJ McConnell, Alex Caruso, Lauri Markkanen, Will Barton, Montrezl Harrell
Whatever formula Hollinger is using it still has the same flaws as his previous one. Really overrates bigs. Last year he had Whiteside at 17m (signed a vet min deal). This year he has Drummond at 15.1m, Olynyk at 14.2m, Theis at 12.8m.
Not to mention the insane numbers for Danny Green (19.3m) or Bruce Brown (14.8m).
If that´s the kind of data he provided as a front office member I can understand why he is no longer on an NBA team.
How about Duffy getting another one of his clients to the Bulls (Richardson) to join with Lavine/Vucevic? Satoransky is one guy I'd love to have. Very capable with the ball in his hands. Would help Luka and Brunson a lot. If he takes his PO it works, if he doesn't maybe a S&T?
(07-26-2021, 01:25 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]Whatever formula Hollinger is using it still has the same flaws as his previous one. Really overrates bigs. Last year he had Whiteside at 17m (signed a vet min deal). This year he has Drummond at 15.1m, Olynyk at 14.2m, Theis at 12.8m.
Not to mention the insane numbers for Danny Green (19.3m) or Bruce Brown (14.8m).
If that´s the kind of work he provided as a front office member I can understand why he is no longer on an NBA team.
It is so easy to be smart from comfort of your armchair against people that actually did something. I trully hate this kind of posts.
Hollinger provides a comment to each calculated number. It is never blind trust in the calculation.
(07-26-2021, 01:33 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]It is so easy to be smart from comfort of your armchair against people that actually did something. I trully hate this kind of posts.
Hollinger provides a comment to each calculated number. It is never blind trust in the calculation.
Not a general point against analysts. I just don´t like Hollinger´s approach. PER is super flawed (if you look into it you can take a look at the takes of other analysts and their case about usage vs efficiency vs PER). This one as well. Cannot predict 17m for a player that ends up signing the vet min and expect no criticism. There are a lot of smart guys in the business. Obviously all of them know a lot more about basketball than I ever will. Just don´t think that Hollinger is the one. He knows how to sell his stuff and market his numbers but most of them are simple boxscore based metrics. Nothing special.
(07-26-2021, 01:33 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]It is so easy to be smart from comfort of your armchair against people that actually did something. I trully hate this kind of posts.
Hollinger provides a comment to each calculated number. It is never blind trust in the calculation.
Pretty sure he's pissed THJ (very much deserved) is low on Hollinger's list.
(07-26-2021, 01:32 PM)HAguiar95 Wrote: [ -> ]How about Duffy getting another one of his clients to the Bulls (Richardson) to join with Lavine/Vucevic? Satoransky is one guy I'd love to have. Very capable with the ball in his hands. Would help Luka and Brunson a lot. If he takes his PO it works, if he doesn't maybe a S&T?
I'd do a Brunson+JRich trade for Satoransky+Markkanen. I like satoransky that much and I think Markkanen makes KP expendable.
Mavs are linked to Lowry. I trust Shams on player-related news with the Mavs, even beyond Stein.
We also know the Mavs want to retain THJ.
It is speculated that Lowry is looking for $30M per…
The only way I see all of this happening in Dallas is if KP is sent out for Lowry.
It would be really difficult to pull this off by trading non-KP contracts to Toronto and operating over the cap. I also don’t believe Cuban would lock into that roster and payroll construction - $60M+ for each of the next 2+ seasons for KP and KLow?
Add in the Holmes interest… there’s only one way here.
(07-26-2021, 01:40 PM)HAguiar95 Wrote: [ -> ]Pretty sure he's pissed THJ (very much deserved) is low on Hollinger's list.
You really have a one track mind. Don´t you...
(07-26-2021, 01:33 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]It is so easy to be smart from comfort of your armchair against people that actually did something. I trully hate this kind of posts.
Hollinger provides a comment to each calculated number. It is never blind trust in the calculation.
Not really sure why you would have a problem with this? The whole point of putting up somebody's valuation of players is a talking point. I would not expect everyone to agree with all the assessments and that is where discussion begins.
I happen to agree with Dirkfan's assessment, and would add that I would rather have Normal Powell than Robinson, yet he has half the supposed value.