(06-08-2022, 04:09 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]1) I love Nico running this team.
2) I love that the "we love stars" mantra is gone. It has me convinced Cuban isn't the GM anymore.
3) I love that you really get the sense he always finds a way to tell you the truth and not BS you, but without tipping his hand too much.
4) I am super excited to see how he handles the draft.
I'm not convinced yet that he is running the team, but I hope your right.
(06-08-2022, 04:39 PM)Hypermav Wrote: [ -> ]I wonder if Nico thinks Gobert is a chemistry guy.
Probably not. Which leads me to think Stein is right that Gobert will not be a major target for the Mavs.
(06-07-2022, 01:28 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]The better argument is that Brooks is said to be the heart and soul of the Mem team. I have, however, heard about what it might take to retain him might be too much when figuring out the salaries of JJJ and Ja. There is another possible in for a trade like this.
I think the MEM owner is flush with cash and is willing to spend whatever it takes to produce a winner. I think they consider the current team as potentially the next dynasty and are planning on paying big to keep it together.
On a slightly separate note, does anyone think Marc Gasol has anything left in the tank? I know he's an old guy, but he would be a veteran stabilizer. Possibly take over the Boban role? (not that I wouldn't just as soon have Bobi).
Does anyone know if the mavs will still have their trade exception from the Richardson trade to use this off season?
(06-08-2022, 09:11 PM)cartwright_marc@yahoo.com Wrote: [ -> ]Does anyone know if the mavs will still have their trade exception from the Richardson trade to use this off season?
Mavs have a $10.87 TPE to use up and through the draft. It will be expired once free agency starts.
Just a quick hitter here. Was reading about Philly's situation and something struck me. With Green cut, they have a shot at the full MLE. They have some big holes in the roster and OKC could be a relief valve for some of their money. The problem is the money they need to dump (Harris) is too big for OKC to bear alone.
The core of Philly's end of this is Favors and THJ incoming. Favors fills the backup spot behind Embiid and THJ replaces Green. It saves them $7.8mm and gets them in range to spend the full MLE
Dallas gets Tobias Harris and gives up THJ and Powell. Dallas deserves some compensation here for the Harris salary. Maybe a move up from 26 to 23? Maybe 34 from OKC?
OKC is swapping out Favors for Powell. This is basically a kiss your sister move for OKC. Maybe they get 26 for sending 30 to Philly and 34 to Dallas. This does not use any of their current season cap space, but players could certainly be added from Philly or Dallas. Adding Brown to the outgoing would make some sense financially and create space on the roster.
It doesn't have to be more complicated than that, but it certainly could be. Tobias is big money, but expires a year earlier than Hardaway. The total remaining contracts for Tobias vs. the Powell/THJ combo is pretty minor. He gives you a shot creator in the front court and takes some of the pressure off of the new center being able to rebound, block shots and score. The center could concentrate on just the first two if you had Harris, DFS, Brunson and Luka playing alongside him. Harris is a plus as a defensive rebounder and maybe a hair above average defensively. You'd move Bullock to the bench with Dinwiddie, Bertans and Maxi. We'd still have the TPE and TP MLE to fill the center hole.
I suspect the issue people will raise is the Harris money. But one, what did we give up here? Two, we got to move up a few spots and can use 34 on a Euro stash of Kamagate. And three, Harris expires a year sooner than Hardaway.
(06-09-2022, 03:13 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]Just a quick hitter here. Was reading about Philly's situation and something struck me. With Green cut, they have a shot at the full MLE. They have some big holes in the roster and OKC could be a relief valve for some of their money. The problem is the money they need to dump (Harris) is too big for OKC to bear alone.
The core of Philly's end of this is Favors and THJ incoming. Favors fills the backup spot behind Embiid and THJ replaces Green. It saves them $7.8mm and gets them in range to spend the full MLE
Dallas gets Tobias Harris and gives up THJ and Powell. Dallas deserves some compensation here for the Harris salary. Maybe a move up from 26 to 23? Maybe 34 from OKC?
OKC is swapping out Favors for Powell. This is basically a kiss your sister move for OKC. Maybe they get 26 for sending 30 to Philly and 34 to Dallas. This does not use any of their current season cap space, but players could certainly be added from Philly or Dallas. Adding Brown to the outgoing would make some sense financially and create space on the roster.
It doesn't have to be more complicated than that, but it certainly could be. Tobias is big money, but expires a year earlier than Hardaway. The total remaining contracts for Tobias vs. the Powell/THJ combo is pretty minor. He gives you a shot creator in the front court and takes some of the pressure off of the new center being able to rebound, block shots and score. The center could concentrate on just the first two if you had Harris, DFS, Brunson and Luka playing alongside him. Harris is a plus as a defensive rebounder and maybe a hair above average defensively. You'd move Bullock to the bench with Dinwiddie, Bertans and Maxi. We'd still have the TPE and TP MLE to fill the center hole.
I suspect the issue people will raise is the Harris money. But one, what did we give up here? Two, we got to move up a few spots and can use 34 on a Euro stash of Kamagate. And three, Harris expires a year sooner than Hardaway.
Personally I don't like Harris at that big salary, even for the cost in assets being favorable.
I also wonder if this sort of clever complex cap/asset maneuvering to pick up slightly better picks and minor advantages is a Mav type of move. That is to say, if they wanted Harris, would their thinking stop at a simple 2-team deal with THJ + ______ to match the money, and done? Before Nico, it seemed like they preferred pursuing the simplest solution possible, rather than noodling at the edges too, both re trades and also the draft.
Let me add that I think the money for Harris - in relation to what he offers AND what he doesn't -- will be a deal-killer for Cuban. Harris might offer about 20M (or maybe less) of "value" to the Mavs, in relation to what their salary scale seems to be, yet he's paid about 38M. As far over the tax line as the Mavs will be, that 18M overpay becomes enormous when you add in the extra tax his overpay represents. I think Cuban would balk at committing 38M to Harris for solid 2-way non-star wing play (when his roster pays guys like that 12M, 10M, and 9M).
On top of that, this doesn't really solve your big man issue, and probably makes it worse even though you used up your main trade pieces and took on huge money to do it -- Powell gave you almost 1800 minutes during the season, you absolutely don't want the wear-and-tear of playing even more undersized for 82 games, and increasing Kleber's workload would be a killer come playoff time. If I squint, I can envision tweaks to this basic deal that might somehow address the need for a big man and lessen the salary differential, but I don't think it gets that far.
BTW, if we simply MUST go get a huge-salary guy, I'm back to considering the Gobert pursuit that I seem to waffle back and forth on.
If it looked like the following, I think it solves the "issues" we are trying to solve, each in our own way.
*Mavs trade THJ, Powell, Brown, Chriss, Green (recent FRP showing promise, still on cheap rookie contract), Pick 26
*Jazz trade Gobert, Oneale
Obviously the Mavs get the 2 playoff-playable pieces they would be seeking, a C and a 2-way wing.
The hidden benefits to the Mavs include
Salary increase (vs non-trade) for 2022-23 is only 5M, Mavs get new 11.1M TPE, leaves 2 open roster slots
(06-09-2022, 04:36 AM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]Personally I don't like Harris at that big salary, even for the cost in assets being favorable.
I also wonder if this sort of clever complex cap/asset maneuvering to pick up slightly better picks and minor advantages is a Mav type of move. That is to say, if they wanted Harris, would their thinking stop at a simple 2-team deal with THJ + ______ to match the money, and done? Before Nico, it seemed like they preferred pursuing the simplest solution possible, rather than noodling at the edges too, both re trades and also the draft.
Let me add that I think the money for Harris - in relation to what he offers AND what he doesn't -- will be a deal-killer for Cuban. Harris might offer about 20M (or maybe less) of "value" to the Mavs, in relation to what their salary scale seems to be, yet he's paid about 38M. As far over the tax line as the Mavs will be, that 18M overpay becomes enormous when you add in the extra tax his overpay represents. I think Cuban would balk at committing 38M to Harris for solid 2-way non-star wing play (when his roster pays guys like that 12M, 10M, and 9M).
On top of that, this doesn't really solve your big man issue, and probably makes it worse even though you used up your main trade pieces and took on huge money to do it -- Powell gave you almost 1800 minutes during the season, you absolutely don't want the wear-and-tear of playing even more undersized for 82 games, and increasing Kleber's workload would be a killer come playoff time. If I squint, I can envision tweaks to this basic deal that might somehow address the need for a big man and lessen the salary differential, but I don't think it gets that far.
So, the argument against this is mainly that it is too clever, Harris makes $18mm too much and I used up our main trade pieces without addressing the center position.
1. Thanks. I thought moving up in the draft and getting a second in a deal that actually makes sense for Philly was pretty clever. Plus, who besides Philly might give actual value right now for Hardaway sight unseen following an injury? Maybe they could do Harris for Favors without Dallas, but at what cost? Dallas used to make this kind of trade fairly regularly in the pre-championship days. Not so much since. I'm hoping our new cap-guru will help there.
2. You and others here are constantly touting that we should spend the TPE AND TP MLE to try to improve. That combo costs $17mm in salary plus gobs of extra LT. Here the version that includes Brown is only $4mm more than current guaranteed salaries in 22/23. There is only a $9mm difference in total salaries for the life of the contracts, but I see value in getting to flexibility a year earlier than you would with Hardaway. I get the concept of salary scale, but as was just discussed the other day, Wiggins and Horford were once thought to be overpays and now both are important contributors in the finals. Does Harris make more money than he's worth? Absolutely. Is he worth $9mm more than THJ, Powell and Brown? Yes (without even considering the extra draft capital).
3. I thought I acknowledged that I hadn't addressed Center yet. But, Holmes for the TPE or Smith for the TP MLE (or both or any number of other players in those ranges) are still in play. The deal improves our draft capital and we still have Green to trade. The one thing I did was give away Powell's expiring contract. Powell and THJ are simply not going to get us a player who is worth AND is paid $20mm in June or July. They are not assets, they are filler. But we don't have the draft capital for them to be the filler for anything substantial. They won't be enough (even with two picks) for someone like Gobert (who most here hate). Other teams will offer more. So, I'm not sure I gave away anything of value. But, I did get a shot creator from another position besides PG (desperately needed) and I left a path/paths to getting a center to replace Powell (which I pretty clearly noted in the post).
(06-09-2022, 07:26 AM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]BTW, if we simply MUST go get a huge-salary guy, I'm back to considering the Gobert pursuit that I seem to waffle back and forth on.
If it looked like the following, I think it solves the "issues" we are trying to solve, each in our own way.
*Mavs trade THJ, Powell, Brown, Chriss, Green (recent FRP showing promise, still on cheap rookie contract), Pick 26
*Jazz trade Gobert, Oneale
Obviously the Mavs get the 2 playoff-playable pieces they would be seeking, a C and a 2-way wing.
The hidden benefits to the Mavs include
Salary increase (vs non-trade) for 2022-23 is only 5M, Mavs get new 11.1M TPE, leaves 2 open roster slots
As much as I would like that to work, I think other teams will offer better packages for Gobert.
(06-09-2022, 07:29 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]As much as I would like that to work, I think other teams will offer better packages for Gobert.
Maybe so. Or maybe he isn't even traded. It was just a proposed "means to an end."
Re your pushback on the merits of your Harris trade, my response was just an honest explanation of how I see it. We don't have to value things the same way, and I understand that you are addressing those same issues we all perceive-- too many players, needs to fill, wasted salary, and so on -- just in a different manner than I would want to see. You may have THE idea, who knows?
I think comparative salaries on the same team are a much bigger issue than gets mentioned -- players get hurt feelers when their relative contribution to team success is not mirrored on payday. I know for certain they led to multiple trades by the Mavs once upon a time, and they tried to steer clear of making problems as a rule. Whether that would still hold true, who knows. (But if acquired, I don't think Harris would be as impactful as DFS who just signed and plays the same position, or Brunson who is about to sign hopefully in a negotiation where value numbers will come into play, and I wouldn't want my key guys giving me side-eye each time they get paid.)
(06-09-2022, 07:26 AM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]BTW, if we simply MUST go get a huge-salary guy, I'm back to considering the Gobert pursuit that I seem to waffle back and forth on.
If it looked like the following, I think it solves the "issues" we are trying to solve, each in our own way.
*Mavs trade THJ, Powell, Brown, Chriss, Green (recent FRP showing promise, still on cheap rookie contract), Pick 26
*Jazz trade Gobert, Oneale
Obviously the Mavs get the 2 playoff-playable pieces they would be seeking, a C and a 2-way wing.
The hidden benefits to the Mavs include
Salary increase (vs non-trade) for 2022-23 is only 5M, Mavs get new 11.1M TPE, leaves 2 open roster slots
Gobert would be the better target, but he is also going to be much more difficult to acquire. I would pull the trigger on that trade in a heartbeat, but I don't think Utah does. They will get better offers and I think we would have to break into future draft picks (or the core) to get that deal done.
Harris is a better player than THJ and a much better fit. We really need another player on the court that can do various offensive things without killing us on the defensive end. And if we are targeting a mobile center there is a good chance that guy is not going to be an elite rebounder (and Maxi definitely is not) so having more size in the lineup would be a big help. I also wonder if Tobias past relationship with Boban suggests he might be a good chemistry guy as well.
I do think we should have a little more coming back in a THJ + Powell for Harris trade to compensate for Harris salary. And I do share your skepticism this FO will be creative enough to do something like Dan suggested. I also worry a bit regarding the loss of depth at center. I think I would want know I am getting one of my preferred tax MLE center targets before I pull the trigger on this.
Is it just me or does "finding a competent center" seem to be a recurring theme for the Dallas Mavericks and a long term frustration for their fans?
From the Mid-90s until 2010 the names associated with DAL's center position were the likes of Miller, Bradley, Laettner, Booth, LaFrenz, Dampier and Diop, among others. None of who were top level competitors. Then they acquired Haywood at the 2010 TDL followed by trading for Chandler during the off season.
To me this was the pinnacle of center play for DAL. Then Chandler left after 2011 and Haywood was amnestied in 2012. DAL went back to cast offs Dalembert and Kaman to fill the position and it hasn't really improved since.
I'm hopeful the new FO can start improving the position. It looks like there are options out there, some will be expensive to get and some may not fit the team's needs, but there are options to consider.
(06-09-2022, 09:52 AM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]Gobert would be the better target, but he is also going to be much more difficult to acquire. I would pull the trigger on that trade in a heartbeat, but I don't think Utah does. They will get better offers and I think we would have to break into future draft picks (or the core) to get that deal done.
Harris is a better player than THJ and a much better fit. We really need another player on the court that can do various offensive things without killing us on the defensive end. And if we are targeting a mobile center there is a good chance that guy is not going to be an elite rebounder (and Maxi definitely is not) so having more size in the lineup would be a big help. I also wonder if Tobias past relationship with Boban suggests he might be a good chemistry guy as well.
I do think we should have a little more coming back in a THJ + Powell for Harris trade to compensate for Harris salary. And I do share your skepticism this FO will be creative enough to do something like Dan suggested. I also worry a bit regarding the loss of depth at center. I think I would want know I am getting one of my preferred tax MLE center targets before I pull the trigger on this.
This is where I am also. I listened to a couple of national podcasts yesterday that went through Gobert scenarios. Our best offer is not in the same area code as what others can do.
To another point you made, whatever center we acquire, he won’t be able to defend the rim and perimeter, rebound and create offensively. That guy doesn’t exist for less than the max. Adding Harris to the starting lineup with two other creators takes that off the list of needs at center. Harris rebounds well for his position as does Luka. The center needs to board also, but he doesn’t have to be a league leader in lineups with Luka and Harris.
That narrows down the requirements to something more manageable. I don’t like Noel, but if you are screening for shot blocking and defensive effectiveness, someone like him at $9mm (without all the baggage) could work. Jalen Smith is in the 89th percentile of shot blockers and 92nd percentile of defensive rebounders. He can also rim roll. He might develop more offense with time, but Harris would take away the pressure to have to do it. Maxi would still probably close. Someone may go higher than the TP MLE, but if that is where the bidding stops, there won’t be a better situation to come to as a young center looking to score big on his next contract.
Tony Bradley hasn’t gotten his career off the ground, but is still young and rebounded, rim protected and defended very well in limited minutes last season. Hartenstein is just a little above average as a rebounder, but defends and rim protects well. None of these guys are stars, but are guys that can help fill the bullpen approach to center (at least until Kamagate makes his first all-star game
).
(06-09-2022, 12:55 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]This is where I am also. I listened to a couple of national podcasts yesterday that went through Gobert scenarios. Our best offer is not in the same area code as what others can do.
To another point you made, whatever center we acquire, he won’t be able to defend the rim and perimeter, rebound and create offensively. That guy doesn’t exist for less than the max. Adding Harris to the starting lineup with two other creators takes that off the list of needs at center. Harris rebounds well for his position as does Luka. The center needs to board also, but he doesn’t have to be a league leader in lineups with Luka and Harris.
That narrows down the requirements to something more manageable. I don’t like Noel, but if you are screening for shot blocking and defensive effectiveness, someone like him at $9mm (without all the baggage) could work. Jalen Smith is in the 89th percentile of shot blockers and 92nd percentile of defensive rebounders. He can also rim roll. He might develop more offense with time, but Harris would take away the pressure to have to do it. Maxi would still probably close. Someone may go higher than the TP MLE, but if that is where the bidding stops, there won’t be a better situation to come to as a young center looking to score big on his next contract.
Tony Bradley hasn’t gotten his career off the ground, but is still young and rebounded, rim protected and defended very well in limited minutes last season. Hartenstein is just a little above average as a rebounder, but defends and rim protects well. None of these guys are stars, but are guys that can help fill the bullpen approach to center (at least until Kamagate makes his first all-star game ).
Not only would Tobias improve rebounding at the 4, but Dorian is very good rebounder at the 3 and Brunson is a surprisingly good 1. Even with Maxi in that lineup you are probably not getting killed on the boards.
As for the tax MLE, Jalen Smith is one of my top targets, but I think I like Hartenstein even more. He was elite this season defensively, and a better rebounder than Maxi. They both have done all of there damage against second units, so a grain of salt needs to be used, but both are young, still improving and already quality rotational players.
(06-09-2022, 08:54 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]I wrote before how I think the center position is crucial to unlock the full Luka repertoir on the offensive side and that Wood and Collins offer (in theory) a skillset that is most ideal for that. The question is his willingness and ability to play defense. Or alternatively - could increased offense offset decrease on the defensive side? The piece below provides an interesting in depth analysis on Wood.
Dallas Mavs Film Room: Pros & Cons of Rockets' Christian Wood Trade - Sports Illustrated Dallas Mavericks News, Analysis and More
My general leaning when it comes to center is that we would be better off with a cost controlled defensive center, then spending cap and assets on an offensive center. Assuming Luka and Brunson are in the starting lineup, if you pair them with a non defensive center I question whether the other two guys can rise that defense high enough. I think there are diminishing returns going too far either way (defense or offense) and just about every champion (and most contenders) are good at both.
If you can get Wood for something like THJ and the 26 pick, then it probably makes sense to do that, but I really don't want to spend any significant assets on a player unless they are a true two way player.
(06-09-2022, 03:11 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]If you can get Wood for something like THJ and the 26 pick, then it probably makes sense to do that, but I really don't want to spend any significant assets on a player unless they are a true two way player.
I don't think an expiring Wood can cost more than non lottery pick and an expiring salary. Of course #26 is not great and Powell expiring is not great. There are likely teams that can do better than that.