MavsBoard

Magic trades.

Scenario 1: They take Smith/Banchero/Holmgren. 

Isaac + #32 + #35 for THJ + #26

Scenario 2: They take Ivey.

Fultz + #32 + #35 for THJ

I´d actually prefer #2 big time. #1 I like to keep the 26th pick and I think that is actually a more realistic situation.

Fultz will not be happy to be #4 behind Ivey, Anthony and Suggs. He´s still just 24 years old, and just 131 games, so enough own ambition. The Magic need some veteran leadership and shooting, too. Mosley knows THJ very well.

After watching Kessler a little more I start to like him. Enough really poor PG passes in his highlights that he caught in stride and just converted. So good body control and hands. He also doesn´t move like somebody that is 7´1 with 14% bodyfat. He seems to play with a motor and enthusiasm.

It´s so hard to predict this draft from like 18 to 45. I´ll just take Kessler, Koloko and Moore. So now I have a huge roster with 18 players, but worst case I just waive Burke, Brown, Chriss and Boban. Use the TP MLE on a veteran wing like Warren, OPJ, Ingles.

Doncic/Fultz/Ntilikina
Brunson/Dinwiddie/Moore
Bullock/Warren/Green
DFS/Kleber/Bertans
Powell/Kessler/Koloko

(06-12-2022, 02:31 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]This offseason through the 24 TDL, I believe we’ll see the guys who “make the cut” for a Kidd coached team come in and those that don’t, move out. I think Kidd is the type that wants hard nosed defenders who have good basketball skills and instincts.

So in regards to this conversation, I honestly don’t think we know what Kidd’s style and offense is gonna look like in a year or two because he will start bringing in (and developing) players to what he wants to see on the court. Maybe yhat is just wishful thinking, cause I myself was really bored with the “my turn, your turn” style of offense we use out there.

Hey, I hate the "take turns" offense, too. Hate it.

The best version of this past team was during the stretches when the ball moved. Fast. I think they like having "attack mismatches" in their tool belt, but I agree they went to it too often in the playoffs. Like, to a fault. 

I don't see it as a philosophy problem, however. I see it as a "Luka and Brunson need to keep learning" problem. They aren't the first players to have to learn this lesson. Everyone else moves the ball, right? 

All of that to say: I don't think multiple ball-handlers is causing that. I think multiple ball-handlers is an attempt to get away from that, though I agree it wasn't always successful.

---

(06-12-2022, 02:34 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]when I brought up DFS

I see. I still don't remember being offended, but if I ever was, it's a safe bet that DFS slander was involved. He's just the greatest ever.

(06-12-2022, 04:01 PM)Mavs2021 Wrote: [ -> ]Magic trades.

Scenario 1: They take Smith/Banchero/Holmgren. 

Isaac + #32 + #35 for THJ + #26

Scenario 2: They take Ivey.

Fultz + #32 + #35 for THJ

I´d actually prefer #2 big time. #1 I like to keep the 26th pick and I think that is actually a more realistic situation.

Fultz will not be happy to be #4 behind Ivey, Anthony and Suggs. He´s still just 24 years old, and just 131 games, so enough own ambition. The Magic need some veteran leadership and shooting, too. Mosley knows THJ very well.

After watching Kessler a little more I start to like him. Enough really poor PG passes in his highlights that he caught in stride and just converted. So good body control and hands. He also doesn´t move like somebody that is 7´1 with 14% bodyfat. He seems to play with a motor and enthusiasm.

It´s so hard to predict this draft from like 18 to 45. I´ll just take Kessler, Koloko and Moore. So now I have a huge roster with 18 players, but worst case I just waive Burke, Brown, Chriss and Boban. Use the TP MLE on a veteran wing like Warren, OPJ, Ingles.

Doncic/Fultz/Ntilikina
Brunson/Dinwiddie/Moore
Bullock/Warren/Green
DFS/Kleber/Bertans
Powell/Kessler/Koloko

I think you are going to be disappointed again. Trades look very favorable for the Mavs. I like THJ the player more than most on this board but he is coming back from a major injury, is one the wrong side of 30 and is guaranteed more than 50m through the next three seasons. That´s not a positive asset.
Teams won´t give up assets to add him.

(06-12-2022, 10:11 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I see this issue very closely to the way you do. But, question:

Do you feel Burke would be quite as important as he was this past season if Hardaway was healthy? What if he's back next season? I realize that their games are different, and that Burke is much more of a shot creator, but just through the math of playing behind another body, I'd say that would lessen the need for Burke, at least a little.

I feel strongly that THJ does NOT have the skills to be that guy.

This team thrashed around looking for a solution as to how to make the offense less Luka-centric and predictable, with lots of fail as they searched for answers, until they finally discovered that it required having TWO creators on the floor. That was Luka-Brunson, but left them with the issue of the minutes each of them would have to rest would not be able to play that way. 

Players who create offense are harder to find than you realize. The lack of them cripples talented non-creator players from being effective. And the Mavs want TWO on the floor at all times.

Dinwiddie filled that hole. Now they will have 2 on the floor at all times, unless 1 of their 3 is sidelined for a game. Burke, a low priced player who doesn't make waves, is their insurance for such a situation.

I think it's not a setup they will entertain abandoning. They did experiment with Green and Franky to be that guy, and both failed. I suspect they will try again -- it would be much better if the insurance policy could help elsewhere too - but I don't think they would move on from Burke until they had an alternative in hand. These guys are hard to find.

(06-12-2022, 05:17 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]I feel strongly that THJ does NOT have the skills to be that guy.

This team thrashed around looking for a solution as to how to make the offense less Luka-centric and predictable, with lots of fail as they searched for answers, until they finally discovered that it required having TWO creators on the floor. That was Luka-Brunson, but left them with the issue of the minutes each of them would have to rest would not be able to play that way. 

Players who create offense are harder to find than you realize. The lack of them cripples talented non-creator players from being effective. And the Mavs want TWO on the floor at all times.

Dinwiddie filled that hole. Now they will have 2 on the floor at all times, unless 1 of their 3 is sidelined for a game. Burke, a low priced player who doesn't make waves, is their insurance for such a situation.

I think it's not a setup they will entertain abandoning. They did experiment with Green and Franky to be that guy, and both failed. I suspect they will try again -- it would be much better if the insurance policy could help elsewhere too - but I don't think they would move on from Burke until they had an alternative in hand. These guys are hard to find.

Preaching to the choir, my guy!

I would understand the Burke takes if he was in some way doing what I expect from an NBA level creator. But he isn´t. Efficiency is beyond bad. He is a glorified chucker. THJ can give the Mavs the same kind of contested midrange shots if they desperately need someone not named Doncic, Brunson, Dinwiddie to create. It´s not like Burke is a great passer.
If you want to have that kind of guy on the roster find someone that can actually do it. Some of the hardship signings for example looked a lot better than Burke in the same role.

(06-12-2022, 05:30 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]I would understand the Burke takes if he was in some way doing what I expect from an NBA level creator. But he isn´t. Efficiency is beyond bad. He is a glorified chucker. THJ can give the Mavs the same kind of contested midrange shots if they desperately need someone not named Doncic, Brunson, Dinwiddie to create. It´s not like Burke is a great passer.
If you want to have that kind of guy on the roster find someone that can actually do it. Some of the hardship signings for example looked a lot better than Burke in the same role.

(06-12-2022, 05:32 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]

Saying that Burke sucks is not really an opinion. Hard to find any statistical evidence in his favor.

(06-12-2022, 05:37 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]Saying that Burke sucks is not really an opinion. Hard to find any statistical evidence in his favor.

Hard to find any statistical evidence in any direction, because he doesn't play very much. 

Which is, of course, the entire point. It's a small contract attached to a player who understands that he's not going to play and is grateful for his role, but who can do some things if called upon. Definitely not in any way holding the team back.

(06-12-2022, 05:39 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Hard to find any statistical evidence in any direction, because he doesn't play very much. 

Which is, of course, the entire point. It's a small contract attached to a player who understands that he's not going to play and is grateful for his role, but who can do some things if called upon. Definitely not in any way holding the team back.

I am taking any player that can produce more than 5ppg on 47.5% TS in the same role. Should be just about any guard in the league. And a number of players that aren´t even in the league right now. Including undrafted players.

(06-12-2022, 05:47 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]I am taking any player that can produce more than 5ppg on 47.5% TS in the same role. Should be just about any guard in the league. And a number of players that aren´t even in the league right now. Including undrafted players.

I am taking the great Bubble Burke! He can be my super cheap, emergency 4th ball-handler any day!

(06-12-2022, 05:17 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]I feel strongly that THJ does NOT have the skills to be that guy.

Yeah but calling Trey that guy is a stretch too. Goran Dragic, on the other hand, certainly is that guy. Time to show him and his agent some love. Taxpayer MLE allows it. You know Luka wants it. Cut the check.

Then orchestrate that center upgrade using Dwight or THJ or the TPE and we’re ready to rumble!

(06-12-2022, 05:55 PM)Jommybone Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah but calling Trey that guy is a stretch too. Goran Dragic, on the other hand, certainly is that guy. Time to show him and his agent some love. Taxpayer MLE allows it. You know Luka wants it. Cut the check.

I would love to get Dragic in this role. 

Are we sure he's ready to accept a role that includes no regular rotation minutes, only playing when needed? See, that's the part that's tough.

(06-12-2022, 05:57 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I would love to get Dragic in this role. 

Are we sure he's ready to accept a role that includes no regular rotation minutes, only playing when needed? See, that's the part that's tough.

Last year he sat at home with his family for quite a while. I literally think if we signed him, we’d tell him to go train at home, when we need you, we’ll send a plane. Oh, and BTW, we’ll need you for sure from the allstar break through the playoffs.

(06-12-2022, 05:52 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I am taking the great Bubble Burke! He can be my super cheap, emergency 4th ball-handler any day! 

Lethal 3-level scorer when he's on. Before Brunson's awesome year he was probably the best mid-range scorer on the team. 

I can go all day with this!

I am willing to die on that hill. But I am a rational person. It´s hard to argue against a feeling. "Bubble Burke" is a lethal scorer when he is on sounds great and it looks even better when he is playing well. Problem is that him being on isn´t the norm. He is shooting less than 40% from the floor in nearly 75% of his games. Of course a lot of that is a small garbage time sample size but there is no way for anyone to convince me that the Mavs cannot find someone better.

(06-12-2022, 06:02 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Last year he sat at home with his family for quite a while. I literally think if we signed him, we’d tell him to go train at home, when we need you, we’ll send a plane. Oh, and BTW, we’ll need you for sure from the allstar break through the playoffs.

I'm in!

Except, this plan comes with all the same issues that drafting someone at #26 does. Bigger motivation (imho) but I doubt they'll be quite THAT motivated to add Dragic, even if you're right and he's into it.

---

(06-12-2022, 06:03 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]but there is no way for anyone to convince me that the Mavs cannot find someone better.

Not trying to convince you of that, my friend. Only that there's not really a reason to look until his contract runs out or he gets included in a trade for some other purpose. 

For the role he has, I feel he's overqualified. That's all.

(06-12-2022, 06:04 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I'm in!

Except, this plan comes with all the same issues that drafting someone at #26 does. Bigger motivation (imho) but I doubt they'll be quite THAT motivated to add Dragic, even if you're right and he's into it.

Not when you add Brown and the $3M (to waive) to whatever trade you make with Powell, then add Burke and $3M to any THJ trade made. It’s simple!

(06-12-2022, 06:08 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Not when you add Brown and the $3M (to waive) to whatever trade you make with Powell, then add Burke and $3M to any THJ trade made. It’s simple!

Hey, it could work out like that. And if so, the conversation changes. 

All I'm saying is that I hope whatever hypothetical trades they're looking at are about the players incoming, and how they'll affect the coming season, not whether or not they provide roster spot room to satisfy everyone's complete and total detailed idealization of the perfect philosophical off season. 

If there's room to add Dragic in a deep bench role, I'm into it! Love Dragic! I don't think the deep bench was a huge problem, I think the lack of rotation players (and specifically front court players, not guards) was the issue. 

If there's room to draft a rookie at #26 and that pick isn't used to attack the actual, real problem, cool - draft a rookie. I love rookies! 

I just think the team is to a point where the ROTATION must take a step forward, or this is a problematic off-season, no matter what else occurs. I would hope that taking that step is the team's primary goal.

---

Also, if adding Dragic lessens the need for Boban to be around to play with Luka off the court, I'M ALL ABOUT IT.

He can talk a big game if he wants but I don't think Cuban wants to pay that luxury tax. What does Cuban need to do in order to get under the luxury tax this summer? Is there an avenue to that goal while still re-signing Jalen Brunson? 

Does it involve offloading at least 2 of THJ, Dinwiddie, or Powell?

(06-12-2022, 06:13 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Hey, it could work out like that. And if so, the conversation changes. 

All I'm saying is that I hope whatever hypothetical trades they're looking at are about the players incoming, and how they'll affect the coming season, not whether or not they provide roster spot room to satisfy everyone's complete and total detailed idealization of the perfect philosophical off season. 

If there's room to add Dragic in a deep bench role, I'm into it! Love Dragic! I don't think the deep bench was a huge problem, I think the lack of rotation players (and specifically front court players, not guards) was the issue. 

If there's room to draft a rookie at #26 and that pick isn't used to attack the actual, real problem, cool - draft a rookie. I love rookies! 

I just think the team is to a point where the ROTATION must take a step forward, or this is a problematic off-season, no matter what else occurs. I would hope that taking that step is the team's primary goal.

---

Also, if adding Dragic lessens the need for Boban to be around to play with Luka off the court, I'M ALL ABOUT IT.

At this point, it’s about talking about ALL the avenues open to them, not pigeon holing them into 1 or 2 as “the only way”. It’s never gonna be what we would come to a consensus on anyway. Someone may get lucky and guess a part of the outcome, but never the whole. If we come up with a scenario/possibility that actually happens, that is amazing!


I guess that’s possibly the difference in our thought process. You want to guess what you think they will do. I think it’s just as possible that what I think is sound reasoning to building the team is just as likely to happen. The realization that neither is actually going to happen has to stay in the back of both our minds.

After the fact, and once we get some time to see the offseason vision for a spell, we can talk about whether or not the vision was sound. 

But now is the time to lay out all the possibilities. As the rumors start rolling in, we can discuss how that rolls into any of the things we thought up and discuss the validity of it.