MavsBoard

(03-17-2022, 10:32 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]In my opinion it is a big difference if a rebuilding team is signing a vet in FA, getting him without paying assets. See Olynik to Detroit and similar. Even rebuilding teams have to spend their cap space. If the vet plays well they can sell him for assets needed for the rebuild. Trading for a vet makes zero sense for them, unless you are paying assets. They are in the asset accumulating business, not asset spending business. Player like THJ will not change the trajectory of a franchise like Detroit given where in the rebuild process they are.

Besides, New Orleans who was reportedly interested in signing THJ does not consider themselves as a rebuilding team. They want to contend. They are just not good at it. Sort of like Sacramento, Minnesota and similar examples.

I will say, as I’ve digested the counter arguments, I understand better where you guys are coming from on this. I still don’t agree, but once I was able to understand you guys are coming from a standpoint of THJ being a scorer, not just a shooter (mvossman helped in this regard), the argument doesn’t seem as outrageous anymore.


To me though, THJ is a shooter much more than a scorer. 12 of his 16ish (edited ppg) ppg comes from behind the 3 line. That screams shooter to me (without going into it anymore than that, but we can if you want, I can get more prepared than I am). Couple that with his defensive issues and a contender type team isn’t gonna want to put him on the court for more than a Steve Kerr/JR Smith type role. We’ve seen how he does not play well when not thought of as a starter/full-time closer here. 

I’m sure those teams have done their research as well. If they haven’t GREAT! He probably has close enough to neutral value to those FOs. These days, banking on that is a bit more dicey than it once was.

GM players love + coach players love + Luka + Bulls first round exit = ?????

(03-17-2022, 11:14 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]I will say, as I’ve digested the counter arguments, I understand better where you guys are coming from on this. I still don’t agree, but once I was able to understand you guys are coming from a standpoint of THJ being a scorer, not just a shooter (mvossman helped in this regard), the argument doesn’t seem as outrageous anymore.


To me though, THJ is a shooter much more than a scorer. 12 of his 16ish (edited ppg) ppg comes from behind the 3 line. That screams shooter to me (without going into it anymore than that, but we can if you want, I can get more prepared than I am). Couple that with his defensive issues and a contender type team isn’t gonna want to put him on the court for more than a Steve Kerr/JR Smith type role. We’ve seen how he does not play well when not thought of as a starter/full-time closer here. 

I’m sure those teams have done their research as well. If they haven’t GREAT! He probably has close enough to neutral value to those FOs. These days, banking on that is a bit more dicey than it once was.

I'm going to be honest, I was more in your line of thinking until recently.  What changed my perspective was that great Iztok article on the types of players that wins playoff series.  THJ was classified as the only "scorer" on the team after KP was traded.  Part of that was that he does a fair amount of scoring unassisted (where somebody like Bertans is completely depended on getting fed).  Playoffs really are a different beast than the regular season, and he has shown well there.

What do you think of C.Wood? Would he be a good fit? I haven't seen him play enough

(03-17-2022, 04:03 PM)Mikelorenzo Wrote: [ -> ]What do you think of C.Wood? Would he be a good fit? I haven't seen him play enough

Yes.

(03-17-2022, 03:26 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I'm going to be honest, I was more in your line of thinking until recently.  What changed my perspective was that great Iztok article on the types of players that wins playoff series.  THJ was classified as the only "scorer" on the team after KP was traded.  Part of that was that he does a fair amount of scoring unassisted (where somebody like Bertans is completely depended on getting fed).  Playoffs really are a different beast than the regular season, and he has shown well there.

So the Mavs were shopping him a half season after signing him because he was injured? That makes no sense if they believe what you're saying. They were reportedly shopping him before switching to focus on KP, so SD and DB weren't in the picture yet (possibly).

In the last 3 years according to bbref, between 80 and 84% of THJ's 3's are assisted, between 51 and 66% of his 2's are assisted. That's not Bertans %, but I don't get how it's "scorer's" % either. I guess I need to read that article to know how he defines scorer, because what you explained makes little sense to me.

(03-17-2022, 04:54 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]So the Mavs were shopping him a half season after signing him because he was injured? That makes no sense if they believe what you're saying. They were reportedly shopping him before switching to focus on KP, so SD and DB weren't in the picture yet (possibly).

But...and try to believe this, if only as a thought exercise...they seem to have actually wanted a shooter and a playmaker, and their need for a shooter was a direct result (as they've said) of Tim's injury. 

So, while it might be difficult for you, who have a fairly low opinion of this current team's potential, to wrap your head around, I actually think they were "shopping" THJ not as a means of jettisoning him, but as a means of acquiring players who could fill those needs down the stretch of this season. This applies to Porzingis, too. Happy as I am to be rid of him, I don't know that getting him out of here was the goal (though I did feel that way initially). 

I honestly believe they had Dinwiddie/Bertans on a list of possible acquisitions they wanted to make (no idea how high on that list), along with Dragic/?, ?/Gallinari, etc, etc...and they made the best deal they thought they could. 

TL;DR: I think the Mavs believe they have a chance to compete this season, and that Dinwiddie/Bertans will help the team reach their highest potential. So far, this has been the case! I think they're probably happy to still have Hardaway in the mix, either to use on the court or in a future deal. 

Again, I'm just referring to what I believe their thinking seems to have been, now that the dust has cleared a little.

(03-17-2022, 04:06 PM)Mavsfan12 Wrote: [ -> ]Yes.

That dude seems like drama to me.

(03-17-2022, 05:03 PM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: [ -> ]That dude seems like drama to me.

Isn't he kind of a bad defender?  I'm not sure that's someone Kidd is going to want.

(03-17-2022, 05:02 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]But...and try to believe this, if only as a thought exercise...they seem to have actually wanted a shooter and a playmaker, and their need for a shooter was a direct result (as they've said) of Tim's injury. 

So, while it might be difficult for you, who have a fairly low opinion of this current team's potential, to wrap your head around, I actually think they were "shopping" THJ not as a means of jettisoning him, but as a means of acquiring players who could fill those needs down the stretch of this season. This applies to Porzingis, too. Happy as I am to be rid of him, I don't know that getting him out of here was the goal (though I did feel that way initially). 

I honestly believe they had Dinwiddie/Bertans on a list of possible acquisitions they wanted to make (no idea how high on that list), along with Dragic/?, ?/Gallinari, etc, etc...and they made the best deal they thought they could. 

TL;DR: I think the Mavs believe they have a chance to compete this season, and that Dinwiddie/Bertans will help the team reach their highest potential. So far, this has been the case! I think they're probably happy to still have Hardaway in the mix, either to use on the court or in a future deal. 

Again, I'm just referring to what I believe their thinking seems to have been, now that the dust has cleared a little.

Ok, I can understand that line of thinking. Now, if that's their line of thinking, how short sighted is it to do something like that? If THJ is the player many around here are trying to make him out to be, I have no clue how a team could be this cold and short sighted. Can you think of another instance this was the plan from a FO? Letting go of a player that they didn't necessarily want to let go of, but felt they had to to make this season a success? I can't.

(03-17-2022, 05:09 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Ok, I can understand that line of thinking. Now, if that's their line of thinking, how short sighted is it to do something like that? If THJ is the player many around here are trying to make him out to be, I have no clue how a team could be this cold and short sighted. Can you think of another instance this was the plan from a FO? Letting go of a player that they didn't necessarily want to let go of, but felt they had to to make this season a success? I can't.

I have to agree with IGT...  If the rumors are true that they were actually shopping him, it would seem very strange that they would do so for a player that had been here for a while, was a good teammate, and fit the exact skill they were supposedly looking for in a trade, if he did, in fact fill that skillset.  To make it worse that it was just for a half season playoff push when he had just signed on for long term.  I believe they wanted more playmaking out of THJ's roster/salary spot, and now they have it in Din.  Now they still need to trade THJ because where is he going to play if you are going with 2 playmakers, two defensive wings, and a big?  He is a very expensive spot player, and maybe the Mavs even view his minutes completely gone with JG's continued improvement.  I am sure that they would prefer him over Bertans, but he can't play bigger, and he is probably the easier of the two to move off of in a trade that nets you any value.

(03-17-2022, 05:09 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]Isn't he kind of a bad defender?  I'm not sure that's someone Kidd is going to want.

I don't think he is making the all-D team anytime soon, but he provides some rim protection and has active hands. He also is pretty mobile and meets the desired ability to be switchable on the perimeter.  I think Kidd could make him work.  Not the best option, but I wouldn't mind having him.  He's also a solid rebounder.

Plus for Wood is he should be cheaper to get than the better trade options out there. Holmes should be the only one that is cheaper/easier to get I think. Should be able to get him without having to use Brunson so Brunson could be kept or used in another deal.

(03-17-2022, 06:46 PM)Mavsfan12 Wrote: [ -> ]... a player that had been here for a while, was a good teammate, and fit the exact skill they were supposedly looking for in a trade, if he did, in fact fill that skillset...

Let's say this again.

The skill set the Mavs wanted filled COULD NOT be filled by THJ at the deadline, not because he was or was not a player with those skills, but because he was not available to play. Effectively, he offered no skill set of any kind (beyond towel waver). Period. However, the Mavs wanted to advance the team's ability NOW; given that he was not playing then and maybe not for the season, he could not be the one to fill that need.

Shortsighted? Perhaps. But we also don't have a good feel for the clock ticking down on Luka's satisfaction in being a Mav, and what another 1st round exit might mean. There may have been some degree of desperation in the equation of "need to win this year in the playoffs," not just with THJ, but also that made them open to move on from KP rather than wait to the summer.

Let’s add that the Mavs rejected whatever offers they were able to get for THJ, unless you think they received none at all (which seems unlikely to me). I’m going to conclude that the Mavs learned that they value THJ higher than any of the teams they talked to, injured though he is.

(03-17-2022, 09:00 PM)Jommybone Wrote: [ -> ]Let’s add that the Mavs rejected whatever offers they were able to get for THJ, unless you think they received none at all (which seems unlikely to me). I’m going to conclude that the Mavs learned that they value THJ higher than any of the teams they talked to, injured though he is.

This just further cements my thought that THJ has less than equal value around the league. Similar to KP. Sure, there might be takers for his contract, it’s just gonna cost us to make the move. I know on a Mavs message board, this is not what people want to hear, but I believe it’s closer to the truth when not putting the blinders on.

(03-17-2022, 04:03 PM)Mikelorenzo Wrote: [ -> ]What do you think of C.Wood? Would he be a good fit? I haven't seen him play enough

He's a great talent offensively. He has the mobility to stay with some guys on the perimeter. His length is great.

His defense comes and goes but when it's locked in he's a force in rim protecting.

My issue with Wood is that he's undersized. He's 6'10 215lb. He gets absolutely bodied by bigger guys in the paint. So he won't fix the biggest issue we have with Powell. But he would bring a lot more varied offense than Powell.

So in terms of fit, I think there's a spot for him, but he's not in my first 5 choices.

thanks for the answer..forgive my audacity..what would those 5 guys be?.. Personally of the "achievable" ones I like Poelt as a cheap Gobert, but I'm not sure how he would fit in. I'm also intrigued by Randle, if he's willing to be a 3 option..

I would say Powell's biggest weakness defensively is the lack of length/rim protection for a 5. He used to get shoved around so hard he flew out of bounds frequently years ago, but I haven't really seen that lately. All the time in the weight room must be paying off. Either that or there just really aren't any players that do that anymore. Tonight vs Embiid should be the worst possible matchup out there today, so we'll see how he holds up. Also Chriss is probable so he may get some minutes to show what he can do as well.

There aren't really any bully bigs in the west. Worst is probably Ayton and he may not even be in Phoenix after this season. Mavs have held their own against Jokic over the past few years. Zubac can have big games I guess, but Clips struggle to keep that guy in when Luka is bullying him on the other end.

(03-18-2022, 02:18 PM)Jakeospikez Wrote: [ -> ]I would say Powell's biggest weakness defensively is the lack of length/rim protection for a 5. He used to get shoved around so hard he flew out of bounds frequently years ago, but I haven't really seen that lately. All the time in the weight room must be paying off. Either that or there just really aren't any players that do that anymore. Tonight vs Embiid should be the worst possible matchup out there today, so we'll see how he holds up. Also Chriss is probable so he may get some minutes to show what he can do as well.

There aren't really any bully bigs in the west. Worst is probably Ayton and he may not even be in Phoenix after this season. Mavs have held their own against Jokic over the past few years. Zubac can have big games I guess, but Clips struggle to keep that guy in when Luka is bullying him on the other end.

When most of the big guys in the league want to get to a spot, they get to that spot against Powell with little resistance. Sure, it’s gotten better, but he was soooo far away, the only way was up.

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It takes all his strength every time to try and box out. I believe that is why he can’t secure rebounds. It wears him out too.