With Dragic, I suspect they may need to see how much salary he will want and how many minutes he expects.
I agree, that he would taking Burke's backup backup role. But certainly there is room for past-their-prime low-salaried guys with playoff experience (think 2017 Andre Iguodala). Especially a playmaker who would be important in case of injury. Dragic brings a lot more than his stats.
(06-17-2022, 09:21 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I think this logic assumes that they'd want Dragic to sign here to be in the top 8-9
He did just play 20 mins a night in the 4 playoff games for BRK.
I guess for me, if you bring him in I want him to be played, if he is going to rot on the bench I would rather have a rookie there being developed.
(06-17-2022, 09:36 AM)Winter Wrote: [ -> ]I agree, that he would taking Burke's backup backup role. But certainly there is room for past-their-prime low-salaried guys with playoff experience (think 2017 Andre Iguodala). Especially a playmaker who would be important in case of injury. Dragic brings a lot more than his stats.
Oh, for sure. He's a better player for that role than Burke, no question. IDEAL for that role, honestly, for the "more than stats" he brings.
But, the role they have in mind would absolutely impact what we can use to read into Dinwiddie's situation.
(06-17-2022, 09:34 AM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]The Brunson defense issue is a concern, but I don't think its one to address now. From an asset perspective, its imperative that he get re-signed. At that point I don't see any chance he is not starting. I think we will have a lot more information next offseason. Wood may not even pan out and we may pivot to a defense first center. Brunson may end turning into Fred Vanvleet defensively (probably not). If its determined that the fit is just not there, then you can trade him with picks for that elite 2 way player.
This isn't directed at you....but
Brunson's length on defense will always be an issue...especially in today's game. But I believe his strengths on defense are always glossed over. He doesn't make many mistakes on rotation and is typically in the right spot. Plus, taking charges is tough work and he is one of the better ones at doing so. Not having caution throwing your body in front of trains going down hill is not for everyone. Both of those things are important and are two pluses coaches value.
(06-17-2022, 09:45 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]I guess for me, if you bring him in I want him to be played, if he is going to rot on the bench I would rather have a rookie there being developed.
Yeah, I can see this perspective.
But, I don't know that we can assume the Mavs see it this way. I honestly believe they think that 4th guard (or however you want to think about Burke's role last year) is an important one, and possibly too important for a rookie.
I agree that there's reason to believe Dragic might not be FORCED into such a role yet, however. Relative to your Dinwiddie point, the only thing that matters, I think, is this: Do you personally think Dragic would be a better choice for this team as first guard off the bench than Dinwiddie next season? Because if not, then I think moving Dinwiddie in order to shore up some other need will probably be counter productive. But, that's just my opinion.
(06-17-2022, 09:36 AM)Winter Wrote: [ -> ]With Dragic, I suspect they may need to see how much salary he will want and how many minutes he expects.
I agree, that he would taking Burke's backup backup role. But certainly there is room for past-their-prime low-salaried guys with playoff experience (think 2017 Andre Iguodala). Especially a playmaker who would be important in case of injury. Dragic brings a lot more than his stats.
This is exactly what I think of for a Dragic signing. Not fully sure of the motive, but he left Tor to be with his family until he was bought out and picked up. Last year, he basically got a Covid shortened season. I think that is his best use going forward. Be there as a support. When 1 of the 3 (Luka, SD or JB) plays with little attention/energy, be Kidd’s ability to give them the chance at a wake up call to get their head in the game. If 1 of the 3 gets injured, be the insurance policy. Don’t get a lot of minutes during the season and stay healthy. Come playoff time, be ghat change of pace/different look playmaker that can turn back the clock cause you are well rested and not banged up!
(06-17-2022, 09:45 AM)Chicagojk Wrote: [ -> ]But I believe his strengths on defense are always glossed over.
Yes, I think Brunson is a team-oriented guy who tries his butt off on defense. Totally unafraid to stick his chin in the paint and take a charge, moves his feet, etc. His size will always be a challenge, but he's nowhere near the negative people assume around here, imo, and he'll probably continue to improve on that end as he gains experience and confidence.
(06-17-2022, 09:50 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Do you personally think Dragic would be a better choice for this team as first guard off the bench than Dinwiddie next season? Because if not, then I think moving Dinwiddie in order to shore up some other need will probably be counter productive. But, that's just my opinion.
I think the Mavs are developing FN and JG for that very thing. If you want to develop guys you cannot bury them in the depth chart. I hate having Luka, JB, SD, and Dragic (not to mention THJ) all ahead of FN and JG.
The Mavs of course may not see anything the way I do, but if they believe in FN and JG the way I do, then they need to make room in the roster and depth chart for them to spread their wings. Otherwise move on to other development projects.
(06-17-2022, 09:45 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]He did just play 20 mins a night in the 4 playoff games for BRK.
I guess for me, if you bring him in I want him to be played, if he is going to rot on the bench I would rather have a rookie there being developed.
I would much rather have an experienced vet (team is lacking) as the 4th guard than a rookie. But I kind of view Green as the young developmental ball handler/facilitator in that regard.
(06-17-2022, 09:55 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]I think the Mavs are developing FN and JG for that very thing. If you want to develop guys you cannot bury them in the depth chart. I hate having Luka, JB, SD, and Dragic (not to mention THJ) all ahead of FN and JG.
The Mavs of course may not see anything the way I do, but if they believe in FN and JG the way I do, then they need to make room in the roster and depth chart for them to spread their wings. Otherwise move on to other development projects.
The last paragraph I can’t agree with more!
(06-17-2022, 09:55 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]I think the Mavs are developing FN and JG for that very thing. If you want to develop guys you cannot bury them in the depth chart. I hate having Luka, JB, SD, and Dragic (not to mention THJ) all ahead of FN and JG.
The Mavs of course may not see anything the way I do, but if they believe in FN and JG the way I do, then they need to make room in the roster and depth chart for them to spread their wings. Otherwise move on to other development projects.
Your take is making more sense now, the more info you add.
I agree that they like Ntilikina and Green, but I'm not sure they like them as much as you do.
Further, I don't think either of them has any overlap with Dinwiddie/Dragic from a ball-handling perspective. I think even in the best future version of Ntilikina, it's probably best to avoid using him in that role, personally. You might disagree with that.
I'd say Hardaway is more of a threat to those guys' minutes than Dinwiddie/Dragic, even if both are here. Your reaction to the Dragic rumor was "they have a ton of ball-handling already, so this must mean Dinwiddie is on his way out" and mine was "yeah, they really want more ball-handling." I think this probably stems from the difference in how we view the ball-handling capabilities of Ntilikina, specifically. We'll see how it works out, but my guess is they don't even consider him a lead guard at all. Off-ball only.
(06-17-2022, 09:45 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]But, the role they have in mind would absolutely impact what we can use to read into Dinwiddie's situation
I think this is the big unknown. Will Dragic and the Mavs see eye-to-eye on the role Dragic would play? That may even be more important than the salary he asks for.
(06-17-2022, 09:52 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, I think Brunson is a team-oriented guy who tries his butt off on defense. Totally unafraid to stick his chin in the paint and take a charge, moves his feet, etc. His size will always be a challenge, but he's nowhere near the negative people assume around here, imo, and he'll probably continue to improve on that end as he gains experience and confidence.
I agree with this, and if it wasn't Wood that we picked up, I'd have no problem with it. But little things add up when you consider the collective group on the court implementing whatever defensive scheme is in place. The teams defensive rating I believe, started tanking the second half of the season and in the playoffs. There's a lot of talk about Kidd being able to magic defense from a team with little actual defensive or athletic talent, but at some point you need actual talent. It's a big question mark right now, and it's not just about rim protection like everyone keeps repeating. We have like 4 clearly above average defensive players in the rotation and 2 of them don't even play that much (and a lot would like to see traded). Maybe a borderline 5th if you count Maxi.
(06-17-2022, 10:05 AM)Winter Wrote: [ -> ]I think this is the big unknown. Will Dragic and the Mavs see eye-to-eye on the role Dragic would play? That may even be more important than the salary he asks for.
For sure. It's why they didn't sign him last season after the deadline.
If he wants a top 8 rotation, 20-minute regular type of role, and there are teams offering that, I simply don't think he'll end up signing here. At this time, I just don't think that type of role is available to him here, just like last year after the Dinwiddie trade.
Now, if Brunson gets away, or if, as Kamm suggests, Dinwiddie gets moved, the conversation changes significantly.
If he's willing to come and replace Burke (probably playing a liiiiittle more because he's a better player than Burke) for the minimum or slightly over it, then I can definitely see the Mavs jumping on that, and it would be a home run of a signing, imo.
Yeah, I'd be all for a Dragic signing if the role was right for the Mavs.
Also, I'm not confident the Mavs are "cultivating" either Green or Frankie. They are what they are. I personally think people over-rate Green, but my views on him are well-known at this point.
I remain unconvinced that either are right for this team (I feel the same way about Powell now as well). Since all could be moved easily, I would rather see them traded for higher usage players.
(06-17-2022, 10:09 AM)Killerleft Wrote: [ -> ]If he's willing to come and replace Burke (probably playing a liiiiittle more because he's a better player than Burke) for the minimum or slightly over it, then I can definitely see the Mavs jumping on that, and it would be a home run of a signing, imo.
Ya, I think he would get a lot more playing time cause Kidd would trust him infinitely more than he did with Burke. The playing time would still coincide (IMO) with what I previously spelled out.
(06-17-2022, 10:17 AM)Winter Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, I'd be all for a Dragic signing if the role was right for the Mavs.
Also, I'm not confident the Mavs are "cultivating" either Green or Frankie. They are what they are. I personally think people over-rate Green, but my views on him are well-known at this point.
I remain unconvinced that either are right for this team (I feel the same way about Powell now as well). Since all could be moved easily, I would rather see them traded for higher usage players.
I think if you’re right, we should get late firsts for them and keep at least those 2 roster spots for developmental guys. Playable or not.
We currently have Luka, Brunson, Dinwiddie for play-making, THJ for shooting and Ntilikina for defense. What exactly is Dragic upgrading?
I honestly have no time for the Mavs always looking weak in the market.
Deron, VAJ, Green and Dragic. They thought they were too good for us. Perfectly acceptable POV.
But you don´t answer the phone, when these same players, want to crawl here on their last legs, one foot in their retirement home.
Give me a player that actually wants to be here and believes in the project, not somebody that needs to be here, because he has no other options anymore.
Dragic had his opportunity he picked the Brooklyn Swepts.
(06-17-2022, 08:54 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]I personally don't think Grant is a two-FRP-improvement on THJ. I honestly am not certain he is a one FRP improvement on THJ, but I could see doing one FRP because positionally he is a big improvement for the current DAL team.
Something that came up on the big Mav's Moneyball 2+hour podcast-palouzza was the idea of when to pull off "THE" trade. Many here think that can't happen until after the 2023 draft. So, that line of thinking is Wood is a low risk swing that may or may not work. If it does, great, but the real show is a year away. IF it doesn't work, Dallas is still an upper level playoff team (even if they don't go as far as 2022), but the real show is a year away.
My question is whether the team needs to be "patient" for a year or make an effort to go for "THE" trade right now. Grant's two way game seems like it'd be a very nice fit. We don't need a dominant scorer like a Beal or LaVine next to Luka. We need someone who CAN score, but also defends. I have no idea if the deal requires one or two picks, but I'd lean toward the bird in hand now.
On a different topic, with the Dragic mention, I'll bring up a bit of unpleasantness. On Wednesday night I wrote that this deal is still open and can be added to without aggregation concerns. Our outgoing salary match is still the four players, not Wood. By now, everyone knows the earliest the deal can be done is after the first round on 6/23. But, it doesn't HAVE to be completed that night. It doesn't HAVE to be completed by the end of this NBA season. It could be held over until after 7/1.
For those who are dead sure Brunson is returning, you want to hear that announcement on 6/23. My fear, if they hold it over, is they don't know what Brunson will do and $12mm of outgoing in July would make it MUCH easier to facilitate a S&T. Suddenly Brunson to NY at $25mm is his $12.5mm BYC outgoing number plus $12mm for the four Amigos times 125% minus the $14.3mm incoming for Wood or $16.4mm. NY can send out at little as $19.9mm to facilitate Brunson at $25mm. Those numbers don't cross, but NY has all sorts of ways to move $3.5mm to a third team. I don't think we are out of the "Woods" yet on Brunson. In fact, if Grant is in play and Dallas wants to make another big splash, some of the Brunson return could go to Detroit (which suddenly makes sense of the Dragic rumor).
(06-17-2022, 10:26 AM)Mavs2021 Wrote: [ -> ]We currently have Luka, Brunson, Dinwiddie for play-making, THJ for shooting and Ntilikina for defense. What exactly is Dragic upgrading?
I honestly have no time for the Mavs always looking weak in the market.
Deron, VAJ, Green and Dragic. They thought they were too good for us. Perfectly acceptable POV.
But you don´t answer the phone, when these same players, want to crawl here on their last legs, one foot in their retirement home.
Give me a player that actually wants to be here and believes in the project, not somebody that needs to be here, because he has no other options anymore.
Dragic had his opportunity he picked the Brooklyn Swepts.
The Mavs had just traded for SD and still had Burke. That 4th guard spot is now open, but as said above, it depends on what Dragic wants now. If he's ready for that mentor role he'd be the perfect signing.
(I don't believe for a second the Mavs rate his current value as a player above Dinwiddie).