MavsBoard

(06-20-2022, 08:43 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]My theory is that yes, they absolutely do. 

But, part of that is because they played Powell so little when things mattered most. To me, the offensive end is what drove that decision. I realize that for must of the board it was just assumed that this occurred because Powell sucks.

I really like Dwight and hope he's been careful with the money he made on this contract.

RE: Wood as C or PF

According to 82games he is better defensively as a PF, by a little. But he is WAY better offensively as a C. His net PER is vastly greater as a C than as a PF. 

I for one do not believe for a second the Mavs brought Wood in to be a PF (or what in today's NBA is a "big wing"). I will be shocked to see him in that role much at all. Sure, he will probably play along another "big" occasionally, but they will likely be hybrid "bigs" who can be a "big wing," like Maxi....................................or JC.

(06-20-2022, 08:55 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]RE: Wood as C or PF

According to 82games he is better defensively as a PF, by a little. But he is WAY better offensively as a C. His net PER is vastly greater as a C than as a PF. 

I for one do not believe for a second the Mavs brought Wood in to be a PF (or what in today's NBA is a "big wing"). I will be shocked to see him in that role much at all. Sure, he will probably play along another "big" occasionally, but they will likely be hybrid "bigs" who can be a "big wing," like Maxi....................................or JC.

Good stuff

There are four other guys on the court during those times when Wood played PF or C (I’m focused mainly on 19/20 and 20/21 versus the lost year last year).  You have to dig into the lineup data to see who was playing alongside Wood as a PF and decide if that looks anything like who Wood would be playing next to here.  I’d submit what Detroit and Houston had is nothing like what Dallas has.

The other reason I think there will be another big next to Wood a good bit of the time is wear and tear.  KP rarely played solo big prior to the trade.  Running a Wood/DFS front court is just inviting injury and weariness when it matters.  We can still be committed to 5-out and not run it 100% of the time.  The O with Wood added is going to be extremely dynamic no matter which spot he plays.

(06-20-2022, 09:12 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]There are four other guys on the court during those times when Wood played PF or C (I’m focused mainly on 19/20 and 20/21 versus the lost year last year).  You have to dig into the lineup data to see who was playing alongside Wood as a PF and decide if that looks anything like who Wood would be playing next to here.  I’d submit what Detroit and Houston had is nothing like what Dallas has.

The other reason I think there will be another big next to Wood a good bit of the time is wear and tear.  KP rarely played solo big prior to the trade.  Running a Wood/DFS front court is just inviting injury and weariness when it matters.  We can still be committed to 5-out and not run it 100% of the time.  The O with Wood added is going to be extremely dynamic no matter which spot he plays.

Your reasons absolutely make sense. You are a smart guy and I love reading your takes.

But the big reasons I don't think he will be a PF/big wing are that 

1) MacMahon has stated "playoff rotation wing" is the priority and 

2) the Mavs front office shooting down any pursuit of Myles Turner. 

This just unequivocally tells me that Wood was brought in as the center. And I think Maxi and DP will back him up.

P.S. I also am evaluating CW on 19-20 and 20-21.

(06-20-2022, 08:55 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]RE: Wood as C or PF

According to 82games he is better defensively as a PF, by a little. But he is WAY better offensively as a C. His net PER is vastly greater as a C than as a PF. 

I for one do not believe for a second the Mavs brought Wood in to be a PF (or what in today's NBA is a "big wing"). I will be shocked to see him in that role much at all. Sure, he will probably play along another "big" occasionally, but they will likely be hybrid "bigs" who can be a "big wing," like Maxi....................................or JC.

This is my thought as well.  Definitely think the plan is for him to primarily be a 5, but pairing him with a rim protecting spacing center (Maxi) would make a lot of sense.  Another reason I would love adding Jalen Smith.

I don’t get how MacMahon’s playoff rotation wing has turned into big wing or DFS backup here. 

For starters, I don’t think DFS plays that position. Seems like he’s guarding a PG nearly half the time. And he never posts up. What is big wingy about his role? 

Second, Luka is everything I think of as a big wing except that he also can handle the rock. He is so not a point guard that the team prioritized having 2 PGs on the roster beside him so he can always have at least one of them on the floor with him. Plus the dude is a monster on the boards. Do you think MacMahon was saying the Mavs’ priority now is Luka’s backup? Surely not, right? 

Third, I don’t get needing another wing anyway unless somebody’s about to be packing. Add a health Tim and newly arrived Christian to the 6-man playoff rotation and the rotation is already 8 deep. And there’s only room for 2 wings to play next to Luka and (a) 1 of Wood/Kleber plus (b) 1 of Brunson/Dinwiddie. Why isn’t Reggie, Doe-Doe, Tim, Josh, Frank enough to plug that 96-minute hole? Is a Hardaway to Orlando for Jonathan Isaac trade already in the makings? 

Fourth, why can’t Dinwiddie play wing in a pinch? Dude is 6’6. Plus there’s Maxi, who others have already pointed out can play next to a center. Why a wing rather than best player obtainable? I really don’t understand the conviction at all.

Unless, again, there’s already an outgoing wing deal waiting to be announced.

(06-20-2022, 11:16 PM)Jommybone Wrote: [ -> ]Third, I don’t get needing another wing anyway unless somebody’s about to be packing. Add a health Tim and newly arrived Christian to the 6-man playoff rotation and the rotation is already 8 deep. And there’s only room for 2 wings to play next to Luka and (a) 1 of Wood/Kleber plus (b) 1 of Brunson/Dinwiddie. Why isn’t Reggie, Doe-Doe, Tim, Josh, Frank enough to plug that 96-minute hole? Is a Hardaway to Orlando for Jonathan Isaac trade already in the makings? 

There's a lot here. As you say, it's based on a lot of assumption, and that's worth pointing out, so kudos. But, I think the guesses are reasonably educated on our part. 

Here's a summation (not all things I agree with):

1) Kleber is the only guy on this roster north of 6'7" who you call a "wing" with a straight face. He's not a wing, imo, but he and DFS are the closest things to a prototypical 4 on this roster at the moment. I think most of us think the roster is missing what is essentially a 6'9" DFS. Faster than Kleber, but a little bigger than DFS. 

2) you are absolutely correct that there are currently more playable wings than what they had in the playoffs with Hardaway coming back. I think many of us feel like Hardaway represents some redundancy with the sizes and skillsets of those guys. So yes, there's much speculation that Hardaway (or someone else) might get moved out so that a better-fitting player who fills a more specific need might come back. 

3) You mention Greenikina (I love you @"DanSchwartzgan"). We're all pretty split on just how useful those guys are, and whether they're worth keeping around. Even among those of us who want them around, I'd say there's disagreement about whether it's favorable to plan on depending on them in the top 8-9 man playoff rotation. Neither of them seemed ready to contribute at that level consistently, though Ntilikina did have his moments against PHX, and there is some optimism that another year of seasoning might have one of them in better position to help next time around. 

4) You're correct that the way Dallas preferred to play this past season was 2 ball-handlers, 2 wings and 1 big. That was their best approach in the playoffs, and yes, they are better positioned now to play that way now than they were then by adding Wood and Hardaway. But, what if they want to give themselves other options that are attractive enough to actually get used against good teams? I'm the biggest DFS fan there is, but even I think you might want a couple of ways to play that don't involve him being the second longest player on the court. 

If Powell is still going to get minutes, Kleber probably will play with Wood quite a bit, so that will help. But, the bottom line for me is this: The team needs a 4 to free them up to use DFS at the 3 as much as they want and to use Kleber at the 5 as much as they want.

(06-20-2022, 11:16 PM)Jommybone Wrote: [ -> ]I don’t get how MacMahon’s playoff rotation wing has turned into big wing or DFS backup here. 

For starters, I don’t think DFS plays that position. Seems like he’s guarding a PG nearly half the time. And he never posts up. What is big wingy about his role? 

Second, Luka is everything I think of as a big wing except that he also can handle the rock. He is so not a point guard that the team prioritized having 2 PGs on the roster beside him so he can always have at least one of them on the floor with him. Plus the dude is a monster on the boards. Do you think MacMahon was saying the Mavs’ priority now is Luka’s backup? Surely not, right? 

Third, I don’t get needing another wing anyway unless somebody’s about to be packing. Add a health Tim and newly arrived Christian to the 6-man playoff rotation and the rotation is already 8 deep. And there’s only room for 2 wings to play next to Luka and (a) 1 of Wood/Kleber plus (b) 1 of Brunson/Dinwiddie. Why isn’t Reggie, Doe-Doe, Tim, Josh, Frank enough to plug that 96-minute hole? Is a Hardaway to Orlando for Jonathan Isaac trade already in the makings? 

Fourth, why can’t Dinwiddie play wing in a pinch? Dude is 6’6. Plus there’s Maxi, who others have already pointed out can play next to a center. Why a wing rather than best player obtainable? I really don’t understand the conviction at all.

Unless, again, there’s already an outgoing wing deal waiting to be announced.

I would suggest the biggest concern right now is that of the 8 deep rotation only three are plus defenders and two of those are ideally part of the second unit.  This team really needs another playoff rotation piece that is a plus defender, and should probably be willing to send out some offense to get it if necessary.

(06-20-2022, 11:42 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I would suggest the biggest concern right now is that of the 8 deep rotation only three are plus defenders and two of those are ideally part of the second unit.  This team really needs another playoff rotation piece that is a plus defender, and should probably be willing to send out some offense to get it if necessary.

I agree with this. 

But, and this is where it gets tricky, anyone they bring in needs to be functional on offense by at least being a willing and effective catch and shoot threat. Otherwise, doubling down on Greenikina would be the way forward, imho. As it is, while I believe the Mavs, themselves would agree with what you've written here, I can almost guarantee Hardaway will play ahead of either of them with the roster in its current form.

Guys like Thybulle...I think they're super fun to watch when they lock people up, but I think it's important to understand why their current teams want to move them in the first place.

(06-20-2022, 11:16 PM)Jommybone Wrote: [ -> ]I don’t get how MacMahon’s playoff rotation wing has turned into big wing or DFS backup here. 

For starters, I don’t think DFS plays that position. Seems like he’s guarding a PG nearly half the time. And he never posts up. What is big wingy about his role? 

Second, Luka is everything I think of as a big wing except that he also can handle the rock. He is so not a point guard that the team prioritized having 2 PGs on the roster beside him so he can always have at least one of them on the floor with him. Plus the dude is a monster on the boards. Do you think MacMahon was saying the Mavs’ priority now is Luka’s backup? Surely not, right? 

Third, I don’t get needing another wing anyway unless somebody’s about to be packing. Add a health Tim and newly arrived Christian to the 6-man playoff rotation and the rotation is already 8 deep. And there’s only room for 2 wings to play next to Luka and (a) 1 of Wood/Kleber plus (b) 1 of Brunson/Dinwiddie. Why isn’t Reggie, Doe-Doe, Tim, Josh, Frank enough to plug that 96-minute hole? Is a Hardaway to Orlando for Jonathan Isaac trade already in the makings? 

Fourth, why can’t Dinwiddie play wing in a pinch? Dude is 6’6. Plus there’s Maxi, who others have already pointed out can play next to a center. Why a wing rather than best player obtainable? I really don’t understand the conviction at all.

Unless, again, there’s already an outgoing wing deal waiting to be announced.

The "playoff-playable" roster looked like this:
   
         Starter      Backup

BIG       Maxi     _________

2-WAY WING   
           
            DFS
                        __________
     
            Bullock

POINT/CREATOR  

            Luka
                         Dinwiddie

            Brunson


Wood will fill the 1st opening, and might be the starter.

As for the 2nd opening, it's the backup to DFS/Bullock, where you need to be able to defend and you shoot 3s. THJ is the right size, and can shoot, but has question marks, because of his defense. But he might be the answer, and will certainly get opportunity to show it, if he's here. We can't assume he will make it, and most doubt the Mavs are satisfied at this point.

Some have theorized that the wing backup could be partly filled by THJ and partly by another player. We'll see.

*TM's ideas on needs are the same as the ideas here.
*Your thought of a THJ-for-Isaac swap is interesting.
*Luka is not a wing. He's an elite Point/Creator of Offense, who just happens to be much bigger than most who do that. Like Magic Johnson.
*Dinwiddie is great where he is, badly needed there (alternating with Luka and Brunson so there are always 2 on the court), and isn't the defender they want for a 2-way wing.
*Maxi likewise, he has his own role to fill so isn't the wing answer at this point. If they found a different playoff-playable big, who can provide both offense and defense, perhaps Maxi could become an answer for the wing, but not yet an option.

I wonder where Durant will end up when Kyrie bails
Doesn't seem all that realistic but a player that age kind of dictates where he wants to go assets be damned.

(06-21-2022, 12:21 AM)Jym Wrote: [ -> ]I wonder where Durant will end up when Kyrie bails
Doesn't seem all that realistic but a player that age kind of dictates where he wants to go assets be damned.

Absolutely crazy stuff. Watching that team all summer is going to be like trash tv.

(06-20-2022, 09:12 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]Good stuff

There are four other guys on the court during those times when Wood played PF or C (I’m focused mainly on 19/20 and 20/21 versus the lost year last year).  You have to dig into the lineup data to see who was playing alongside Wood as a PF and decide if that looks anything like who Wood would be playing next to here.  I’d submit what Detroit and Houston had is nothing like what Dallas has.

The other reason I think there will be another big next to Wood a good bit of the time is wear and tear.  KP rarely played solo big prior to the trade.  Running a Wood/DFS front court is just inviting injury and weariness when it matters.  We can still be committed to 5-out and not run it 100% of the time.  The O with Wood added is going to be extremely dynamic no matter which spot he plays.

This is about the closest thing to my thinking.  It is a long season and we are going to be hammered by the playoffs if we are running out a starting, big minute front court of DFS/Wood.  You can be committed to the 5-out without selling out to it.  I truly hope the Mavs bring in a solid 5 capable of being a top rotation player on this team in matchups that it is beneficial.  Apply when needed in heavier doses when necessary, and run with Wood when not.  I think it will be good for our chances to vie for HC in the playoffs, and going far in them.  I would absolutely go all in to find the right guy and I hope the Mavs do so.  That player will almost certainly need to come from a trade unless we end up getting a bargain that outplays their current value.  

It is a little tiresome to hear about bigs being played off the court in the playoffs.  The same can be true if you don't have them and get bullied by other teams' bigs!  You also have to make it through the grind of the regular season with a high seeding and not beat up.

(06-21-2022, 12:50 AM)Mavsfan12 Wrote: [ -> ]It is a little tiresome to hear about bigs being played off the court in the playoffs.  The same can be true if you don't have them and get bullied by other teams' bigs!  You also have to make it through the grind of the regular season with a high seeding and not beat up.

It's a decent point, but it doesn't change the calculus, for me. 

Yes, Looney hurt the Mavs. I personally didn't think he bullied them, I think they moved the ball really, really, REALLY freaking well and he was the guy whose defender had to leave him at the end of those possessions. He made them pay by presenting himself intelligently as a target in the paint after the ball had pinballed around enough to break the defense. 

And, it's worth noting that he was on the floor specifically because he was able to hang in there early in the series when the Dallas ball-handlers (including Luka) tried to attack him on switches. He did so better than Gobert, better than Ayton. Kudos to him, and hopefully the Mavs can find some modern bigs like that. Hopefully Wood is one, honestly. 

But, it's disingenuous to suggest that GS simply decided to stay big at the 5. They had a good one who was ready to D up on the perimeter. That's rare.

(06-21-2022, 01:06 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]It's a decent point, but it doesn't change the calculus, for me. 

Yes, Looney hurt the Mavs. I personally didn't think he bullied them, I think they moved the ball really, really, REALLY freaking well and he was the guy whose defender had to leave him at the end of those possessions. He made them pay by presenting himself intelligently as a target in the paint after the ball had pinballed around enough to break the defense. 

And, it's worth noting that he was on the floor specifically because he was able to hang in there early in the series when the Dallas ball-handlers (including Luka) tried to attack him on switches. He did so better than Gobert, better than Ayton. Kudos to him, and hopefully the Mavs can find some modern bigs like that. Hopefully Wood is one, honestly. 

But, it's disingenuous to suggest that GS simply decided to stay big at the 5. They had a good one who was ready to D up on the perimeter. That's rare.

I hope you don't think me disingenuous...

Looney is a physical presence out there.  It would have been nice to have had some better rebounding/rim protection to throw out there to defend the paint a bit better.  An option to go to.  The Mavs had nothing to turn to, other than Bobi - which would have been worse.  I am sure Wood will help, but he is not physical and is not considered even an avg defender.  It is like the Nash era Suns out there with Wood as Amare.  He is going to do well on offense, but it is hard to be elite when you can't defend the paint.  It just breaks down your defense and opens up the 3 even more.   It's like running the ball in football.  It isn't as important in the "modern game" until someone can't stop it. Then it's fatal.

Even the W's will be better next season when they have Wiseman as an option to go to for bigger matchups.  They could go big or small.  Options.  Matchups.  That's all I'm getting at here.

(06-21-2022, 01:41 AM)Mavsfan12 Wrote: [ -> ]I hope you don't think me disingenuous...

No! Not at all! Sorry, it’s late and I didn’t think enough about how that might come across. I apologize.

What I meant to address is the general sense I get from several people that if the Mavs just had a Steven Adams type that would solve everything. I think the Mavs’ philosophy with bigs is kind of one of the reasons they did as well as they did. Don’t get me wrong, I think the Warriors and Celtics both did it better, but I believe from about the second round on every team had “playable” bigs, Mavs included.

The disingenuous comment was meant to address the notion that not having a common center held them back, when I think it’s pretty clear he wouldn’t have been on the court, even if they had one. Somehow, there are still Mavs fans who believe Andre Drummond is the answer to all of the team’s problems.

(06-21-2022, 01:50 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]No! Not at all! Sorry, it’s late and I didn’t think enough about how that might come across. I apologize.

What I meant to address is the general sense I get from several people that if the Mavs just had a Steven Adams type that would solve everything. I think the Mavs’ philosophy with bigs is kind of one of the reasons they did as well as they did. Don’t get me wrong, I think the Warriors and Celtics both did it better, but I believe from about the second round on every team had “playable” bigs, Mavs included.

The disingenuous comment was meant to address the notion that not having a common center held them back, when I think it’s pretty clear he wouldn’t have been on the court, even if they had one. Somehow, there are still Mavs fans who believe Andre Drummond is the answer to all of the team’s problems.

It would have been nice to have had one to have found out.  I have actually been in the camp that kind of stood against the all-in focus on a traditional big.  By acquiring Wood though, I think you actually CAN now turn attention to that.  I guess my opinion forms around the fact that if you can only have one, then get the mobile guy.  But once that guy is installed, diversifying seems reasonable.  Does that make more sense?  I would hate to see our bigs get hammered all season and limp into the playoffs.  Maxi already goes through it.  We will have to see how Wood holds up.  Even bigger guys like A. Davis will play more 4 during the season and hold off on the 5 until playoffs necessitate it.

In terms of free agent wings, Kyle Anderson definitely seems like a realistic option to me. I suspect guys like OPJ and PJ Tucker will resign with their current teams, but Memphis has an abundance of young SF/PF types and they might let him go to give more minutes to youth. Slo-Mo would fit in well as an experienced, versatile wing who can do a little bit of everything off the bench.

(06-20-2022, 11:16 PM)Jommybone Wrote: [ -> ]Unless, again, there’s already an outgoing wing deal waiting to be announced.

Stein said yesterday that the Mavs are exploring THJ, SD, and DB trades. One may not materialize that they think makes them better, but I get the impression one or more of them would be used to get a wing, one that would be a better two-way fit.

(06-21-2022, 06:50 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Stein said yesterday that the Mavs are exploring THJ, SD, and DB trades. One may not materialize that they think makes them better, but I get the impression one or more of them would be used to get a wing, one that would be a better two-way fit.

I don't get how SD is in there, he is the player I wanted the most and was slotting in our biggest hole.

THJ is important to our lockerroom and a good player with an important skill. I think to trade him is not a good idea.

Bertans is okish just to expensive. But if we can get something we like it's fine.