MavsBoard

(01-30-2022, 05:06 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]Sorry if I missed this somewhere, but the DB.com guys posted a 3-team idea (not rumor) as follows:

Dallas gets McCollom, Robinson and their 23 pick back

Portland gets KP

NY gets Brunson


If you put this into the trade machine, Dallas loses 4 wins because KP and Brunson show really well in the LEBRON metric used to determine wins gained and lost.  Maybe you do the KP/McCollom part of this anyway based on KP’s injury history.  But, CJ is four years older and has missed significant time each of the last two years.  CJ is kind of who you hope Brunson grows into.  I’d contend Brunson is likely the better version of that guy during the remaining life of McCollom’s contract.

Not sure what good trading UFA Brunson for UFA Robinson if flight risk is your concern.  Is Robinson as good as KP?  Yeah, on the nights KP can’t play.  Otherwise?  Probably not.

I get accused of wanting to give away Brunson for nothing, but I don’t like this deal for Dallas.  Now, if you tell me I can also deal THJ/22/24 for John Collins, then we can talk some more.

You are sending out Brunson for Mitchell and our pick.  That has been a common suggestion on this board.  The flight risk is mitigated because you got your pick back.  Also Mitchell is likely not getting more than MLE, which makes him less flight risk and less cap commitment.  I'm good with that trade if you are dumping KP.

I would argue CJ is a better offensive fit with Luka than Brunson as he is a high volume catch and shoot guy who can also be the secondary playmaker.  I think I would prefer something like KP + Bullock for CJ + Covington.  If you are not getting Mitchell with Brunson, I would mind throwing in Powell for Nurkic either.

That trade probably lowers the overall talent on the team (as someone mentioned above) but I think the fit is better and getting that pick back is valuable.  It gives us access to assets to make further improvements.

(01-30-2022, 09:36 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]Question...if it were Kyrie instead of C.J. for KP, would you do that?

I think you have to unless you are completely out on Kyrie from a headcase standpoint.  He is a better player than either of those guys and would be a perfect offensive fit with Luka.

There is something fundamentally wrong when we are trading pieces like DFS and Brunson who have been there when it matters for the most part instead of KP. KP brings a lot to the table with his size and rim protection but up to this point he has not done much to say he is a championship piece. DFS and Brunson are championship pieces that can be relied on. 

Until the Mavs move KP and add THJ to that list, we are going to be average with those two guys who make together 50 million are core pieces on this team 

KP + THJ = 52 Million
JB + DFS = 32 to 35 Million

In my opinion I am going to take JB and DFS and the extra 17 million to go and get something else. That is the decision the Mavs are faced with. 

I am still baffled why people are not behind a moving THJ and KP, I would add Maxi to that list as well.

Continued: 

BTW when you look at it like this, it should put into perspective why we should keep DFS and Brunson

KP + THJ = 52 Million

JB + DFS = 32 to 35 Million

JB and DFS could actually be closer to 28 Million if you consider:
JB 17 Million
DFS 11 Million

I would still say that is better long term for us than KP and THJ at over 50 Million.

Charlotte has no starting center.
KP for Rozier + Plumlee + Washington.


Rozier takes the 6th man role.
He won't like it, but chances are, JB is gone in this scenario.

(01-30-2022, 11:15 PM)Omega_Supreme Wrote: [ -> ]There is something fundamentally wrong when we are trading pieces like DFS and Brunson who have been there when it matters for the most part instead of KP. KP brings a lot to the table with his size and rim protection but up to this point he has not done much to say he is a championship piece. DFS and Brunson are championship pieces that can be relied on. 

Until the Mavs move KP and add THJ to that list, we are going to be average with those two guys who make together 50 million are core pieces on this team 

KP + THJ = 52 Million
JB + DFS = 32 to 35 Million

In my opinion I am going to take JB and DFS and the extra 17 million to go and get something else. That is the decision the Mavs are faced with. 

I am still baffled why people are not behind a moving THJ and KP, I would add Maxi to that list as well.

My guess is if you polled this board as to who they would most want to trade, THJ and KP would both be at the top of the list.  There have been a ton of trade suggestions for both.  Problem is they may not be terribly movable.  THJ injury and relationship with the FO make moving him an unlikely event.  KP has an undetermined value.  Not sure who wants him and how badly.  Personally I am still holding out hope that the goal/focus has been to raise his value for a TDL trade all along, but I'm worried that is not the case.

There has been a lot of talk regarding a Brunson trade because there is a real possibility he is bailing.  I think it is going to be a constant problem for this team to bring in a high level secondary playmakers, because a lot of those guys want to run their own team

(01-30-2022, 11:51 PM)Razzmatazz_Hopskidillydoo Wrote: [ -> ]Charlotte has no starting center.
KP for Rozier + Plumlee + Washington.


Rozier takes the 6th man role.
He won't like it, but chances are, JB is gone in this scenario.

I was hoping to do something like this:

Gordon Hayward/Moses Brown + Future Dallas Protected 1st to Indiana
KP to Charlotte
Turner and TJ Warren to Dallas'

TJ Warren is close to returning from Injury.

(01-30-2022, 11:15 PM)Omega_Supreme Wrote: [ -> ]KP + THJ = 52 Million
JB + DFS = 32 to 35 Million

I am still baffled why people are not behind a moving THJ and KP, I would add Maxi to that list as well.

I think the answer to you questio comes down to 2 possible perspectives. 1) THJ in particular just amassed negative value - high volume shooter on a rather high volume salary with an injury; do we really want to know how KP is valued across the league? Many are not willing to give away the few assets we have to move either player, so there is reluctance to entertain the cost to do so.
2) There is a phenomenon we experienced with the Harrison Barnes trade. We acquired one of the biggest Trade Exceptions in NBA history and used it to acquire??? We kicked the can down the road and never did anything with it. We moved Josh Richardson for about 10 million in TE... we did not relinquish it to create cap space for a signing in the summer and we haven't really seen much smoke regarding the Mavs doing anything with it except watch it expire on the shelf. From those wonderful examples of team building there is a fear that the Mavs would trade to get out from under those contracts without replacing them at the par value. So using your example of re-sign Brunson and DFS for $32 Million and use the remaining $17 mil elsewhere, we are subconsciously admitting we are more likely to dump 50, sign 32, and watch mark count the difference.

IMO the key is Bullock. IF Bullock can become the dependable 3&D piece, then I am all about trying to get something for (or just out from under)THJ... KP is another thing - I just don't see him having value in trade scenarios and I don't like the thought of the cost it would take to get out from under his contract, when his play indicates he is not a tremendous negative.

But either 1) the cost is too high to try and move them or 2) we would NOT replace the assets lost with something else to go with Brunson and DFS. So, my fear is that we would lose assets from either perspective.

(01-31-2022, 12:16 AM)SkenfromLMF Wrote: [ -> ]I think the answer to you questio comes down to 2 possible perspectives. 1) THJ in particular just amassed negative value - high volume shooter on a rather high volume salary with an injury; do we really want to know how KP is valued across the league? Many are not willing to give away the few assets we have to move either player, so there is reluctance to entertain the cost to do so.
2) There is a phenomenon we experienced with the Harrison Barnes trade. We acquired one of the biggest Trade Exceptions in NBA history and used it to acquire??? We kicked the can down the road and never did anything with it. We moved Josh Richardson for about 10 million in TE... we did not relinquish it to create cap space for a signing in the summer and we haven't really seen much smoke regarding the Mavs doing anything with it except watch it expire on the shelf. From those wonderful examples of team building there is a fear that the Mavs would trade to get out from under those contracts without replacing them at the par value. So using your example of re-sign Brunson and DFS for $32 Million and use the remaining $17 mil elsewhere, we are subconsciously admitting we are more likely to dump 50, sign 32, and watch mark count the difference.

IMO the key is Bullock. IF Bullock can become the dependable 3&D piece, then I am all about trying to get something for (or just out from under)THJ... KP is another thing - I just don't see him having value in trade scenarios and I don't like the thought of the cost it would take to get out from under his contract, when his play indicates he is not a tremendous negative.

But either 1) the cost is too high to try and move them or 2) we would NOT replace the assets lost with something else to go with Brunson and DFS. So, my fear is that we would lose assets from either perspective.

Gotcha, the KP trade is looking like a disaster as each day passes. We get good play from THJ and KP from time to time but to have 55 million tied up in those two which is half of our cap is a problem. 

Whatever we do needs to be focused on a reset where those two guys are gone and we can commit to DFS and JB as long term winnable core pieces which they should be anyway. 

Our priority should be adding value plus ridding ourself of the Knicks trade for whatever assets we can get.

-KP just isn't good enough to warrant putting up with the amount of games he misses.  We see it and you can be certain that other teams see it, you just have to hope the MBT see it.  It's the biggest piece of the puzzle to this team.  You aren't going to be able to upgrade his talent level unless you attach other assets which would be foolish since his trade still hasn't been fully paid, but lesser talent in return could very much be addition by subtraction.  
-JB and DFS are more pressing since they are expiring.  
-DFS isn't getting traded as his value is really low compared to his contribution to the team.  I'm also much more confident he wants to work something out and be here.
-JB is the most pressing matter as his value is higher and I'm less certain he wants to be here.  
-THJ's injury almost certainly means he's here through the season.

(01-31-2022, 12:27 AM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]-KP just isn't good enough to warrant putting up with the amount of games he misses.  We see it and you can be certain that other teams see it, you just have to hope the MBT see it.  It's the biggest piece of the puzzle to this team.
-JB and DFS are more pressing since they are expiring.  
-DFS isn't getting traded as his value is really low compared to his contribution to the team.  I'm also much more confident he wants to work something out and be here.
-JB is the most pressing matter as his value is higher and I'm less certain he wants to be here.  
-THJ's injury almost certainly means he's here through the season.

I agree, the stakes are too high to continue to risk relying on KP and screw Luka in not having a chance. 

The MBT's priority needs to be ridding ourselves of KP and bonus if THJ is on the list. I love THJ btw but his limitations have to much negative value what we are trying to do.

(01-30-2022, 11:51 PM)Razzmatazz_Hopskidillydoo Wrote: [ -> ]Charlotte has no starting center.
KP for Rozier + Plumlee + Washington.


Rozier takes the 6th man role.
He won't like it, but chances are, JB is gone in this scenario.

Charlotte would be giving up their entire big man rotation for an oft injured center.  Don't think they can do that.  We would also have to cut two players to make that work.  Its really hard to make the salaries work in a KP for Rozier trade.

The more natural trade would be KP for Hayward.  I would probably rather do McCollum if I had the choice.

(01-31-2022, 12:48 AM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]Charlotte would be giving up their entire big man rotation for an oft injured center.  Don't think they can do that.  We would also have to cut two players to make that work.  Its really hard to make the salaries work in a KP for Rozier trade.

The more natural trade would be KP for Hayward.  I would probably rather do McCollum if I had the choice.

Charlotte almost has to move off of Hayward if they are planning to sign Bridges. They will have to much salary locked up in that SF/PF position. PJ Washington is also there who they have to decide on. 

Gordon 29 Million
Oubre - 12 Million
Miles Bridges 25 Million (Extension Assumption)

That would mean almost 60 million tied up in that small forward position. If Hayward is a PF then it could work but Bridges IMO seems to be the future at small forward for them and I think its his best position.

Don't know if this was meant for Tyler specifically, but for my .002 cents I'd stay away from Kyrie because you can't trust what he'll do next inspite of his talent. He'd be a headache IMO.

(01-30-2022, 05:18 PM)Tyler Wrote: [ -> ]Really that's just two separate deals. KP for McCollum, and Brunson for Robinson/23. Personally I think both are talent downgrades for Dallas and the resulting team is worse off than what they already have. Like you, I could be talked into it if there’s a bigger deal lined up. But without that I just don’t see it.

I agree that KP for McCollum seems like a talent downgrade and the Brunson part even moreso.  The biggest reason I make the KP part of the trade, however, is the injury factor.  Though McCollum has been through some injuries lately, the overall history is not too bad.  The KP injury history is just scary.   McCollum is older, but KP and his thin frame counter any age discrepancy.   I would rather have 16 and 7 most every night than 20 and 9 and never know when you are going to get it (these are not their numbers, just an example).  With the contracts each has, you have to get solid production at a minimum so you can fit pieces around them.  You are unlikely to trade them except for other older/injured players with similar contracts.  I think McCollum might be one of the better choices to take this gamble on.  I am not even sure why Portland would want KP when they have Nurkic, but that seems to be a thought on the board. 

I dont like Brunson for Mitchell and 23 at all.  If we were to do that, I would certainly hope we have another deal on the table (as DanS suggests) or we are absolutely certain Brunson is leaving and can find no other deals.  I would rather expand the McCollum deal and get Nurkic in here.......and be able to keep Brunson.   

DFS needs to stay as I do not want to lose the very entertaining God King fan club from the board.

(01-31-2022, 04:03 AM)HoosierDaddyKid Wrote: [ -> ]Don't know if this was meant for Tyler specifically, but for my .002 cents I'd stay away from Kyrie because you can't trust what he'll do next inspite of his talent. He'd be a headache IMO.

I love Kyree's talent, but I agree.  i do not want him around Luka to be honest.   I guess if I knew J Kidd might have some sort of mentor impact on him, that might work.  From what I have seen and heard of Kyree though, he only listens to the voices that are somewhere in the inner recesses of his head.  

(01-31-2022, 12:22 AM)Omega_Supreme Wrote: [ -> ]Gotcha, the KP trade is looking like a disaster as each day passes. We get good play from THJ and KP from time to time but to have 55 million tied up in those two which is half of our cap is a problem. 

IMO the cap is no longer the concern, we are over and will be as long as Luka is a Mav...

If we are diagnosing dead weight it is better to take into account the percentage of salary up to the TAX Threshold rather than the cap... That doesn't change the issues you have identified, it only lessens their impact. I think that is an important distinction because it helps determine how pressing the need is. (do we make a bad deal because we need pieces gone, or can we be a bit patient in an attempt to get a better market for specific players).

(01-31-2022, 12:27 AM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]-KP just isn't good enough to warrant putting up with the amount of games he misses.  We see it and you can be certain that other teams see it, you just have to hope the MBT see it.  It's the biggest piece of the puzzle to this team.  You aren't going to be able to upgrade his talent level unless you attach other assets which would be foolish since his trade still hasn't been fully paid, but lesser talent in return could very much be addition by subtraction.  
-JB and DFS are more pressing since they are expiring.  
-DFS isn't getting traded as his value is really low compared to his contribution to the team.  I'm also much more confident he wants to work something out and be here.
-JB is the most pressing matter as his value is higher and I'm less certain he wants to be here.  
-THJ's injury almost certainly means he's here through the season.

KP has played like an all star most of this season.  His shooting can get better, but his defense has been spectacular at times.  Injury is a concern but who will trade for a max guy with injuries?  The only way this team goes far in the playoffs is with KP playing like an all star.

Does Jalen to the Knicks even make sense?   Especially considering the regression of Randle and RJ not making the third year jump yet.   Does Jalen make them closer to a contender?   That team needs to continue to add young talent and then get a star to choose them.   While Jalen might raise their floor, I think the Knicks are stuck in middle-tier-dom.

(01-31-2022, 12:27 AM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]THJ's injury almost certainly means he's here through the season.

Just saying OKC has a penchant for taking on vets with contracts and rehabbing them. They have to get to 101 mil in total team salary  to reach the salary floor for this season. The penalities aren't super harsh for not reaching it, as they just pay the difference to their players anyway, but if you're going to spend the money then why not try and get an asset?

OKC's team salary is at 88.2 for this season. They need about 12.9 to reach the salary floor. Interestingly enough, the difference between THJ and Favors is about 11.6. If you add in, say, Moses Brown as a sweetener, that gets OKC right to that minimum total team salary needed.

So I'd be on the lookout for OKC being active this TDL to act as a 3rd teamer to facilitate some trades. 

One idea after listening to a Bill Simmons+KOC podcast is this one:
OKC: THJ+Brown (Maybe some other minor stuff like Nesmith) 
Mavs: Collins+Favors+Schroeder
ATL: Smart
Celtics: Brunson

Edit: I'd then turnaround and offer Portland KP+Maxi for McCollum and Covington.