(02-14-2022, 05:26 PM)hakeemfaan Wrote: [ -> ]I think the synopsis is a bit of sensationalist journalism. I am sure the Mavs just like any other team talking to the Pistons asked if Cunningham was available. As they should.
It's aggregating for clicks.
Windhorst said "they jokingly responded by saying 'We have interest in Cade.'"
The implication being that was the Mavs' way of suggesting Brunson was not available.
(02-14-2022, 05:12 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I think DFS and Kleber both got team-friendly deals last time around (not that the Mavs took advantage of the extra wiggle room).
I also think this IS a team-friendly deal for DFS now. He would've gotten more in a weak free agency class, I suspect. Were you hoping for less?
I'm not sure who was going to give him more than MLE? I like DFS a lot and think he is easily worth that contract, but the market for low volume 3&D guys has never been huge. Guys like Crowder, Green and Covington never got much more than MLE in their hey day and all were at least as good as DFS in their peak. I like Maxi on his deal too, although he has started showing some significant wear and tear.
I love both of those guys on the team and on their contracts, but neither is going to bring you much in a trade. I seriously doubt either could bring the value they currently provide us in a trade, so it likely will never make sense to move them. Hell, even Powell is starting to look like somebody we are probably better off holding on to than sending (at best as filler).
Those are movable contracts that do not net you much, and doing so likely does more harm than good.
Then in the last 6 months we have added three 18 mil contracts for bench players all with question fit and health issues. Those will all likely require an asset just to move, and we don't have any assets to attach to them. I am very curios what we are going to do with our 22. My guess is use it to get off either THJ or Bertans as it makes no sense to have both. Unless he has a major resurgence, it won't be enough to off Bertans. I feel like picks are less valuable during the draft then they are before hand when they can be seen as potential currency.
Can't talk about Brunson as an asset. As a UFA, he may not even be here. I feel like Dinwiddie negatively impacts his chances at signing here. If he walks next summer this FO failure will be complete.
(02-14-2022, 05:29 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]+Luka
+DFS
+JB
+Maxi
=Green
=Bullock (I'd bump him to + if he keeps up his current level of play)
=Frank
-THJ (I think this flips to + after next season)
-Powell
-Dinwiddie
-Bertans
-Burke
-Boban
-Brown
-Chriss
I agree THJ flips to + next season, and I think it's likely that Dinwiddie does, too.
Ntilikina, Brown, Burke and Chriss are all on contracts so small they are basically just throw ins. They might even seem like value deals if they're going to new teams who plan on actually playing them. Eye of the beholder on those, imo.
Boban is absolutely a negative, but his deal is fairly small, too, and it doesn't last much longer.
Nobody on this team besides your top 3-4 names are players teams are dying to acquire. I get that point and agree with it. But, I don't think it's nearly as bad as people are feeling like it is this week, and it's certainly no worse than it was before this trade. Dinwiddie will be tradable this off-season, if they want to move him. Or at the next deadline. Or the summer after that.
Porzingis wasn't. This trade is a miracle, given all that we're learning about his worth. He HAD to go. Keeping him wasn't an option.
(02-14-2022, 05:36 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I agree THJ flips to + next season, and I think it's likely that Dinwiddie does, too.
After next season.
Some of those contracts might be useful but my ratings are based on being viewed as a positive when building towards brining back better talent.
KP should be a good lesson to the board with our fantastical John Collins trades.
(02-14-2022, 05:35 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not sure who was going to give him more than MLE? I like DFS a lot and think he is easily worth that contract, but the market for low volume 3&D guys has never been huge. Guys like Crowder, Green and Covington never got much more than MLE in their hey day and all were at least as good as DFS in their peak. I like Maxi on his deal too, although he has started showing some significant wear and tear.
I love both of those guys on the team and on their contracts, but neither is going to bring you much in a trade. I seriously doubt either could bring the value they currently provide us in a trade, so it likely will never make sense to move them. Hell, even Powell is starting to look like somebody we are probably better off holding on to than sending (at best as filler).
Those are movable contracts that do not net you much, and doing so likely does more harm than good.
Then in the last 6 months we have added three 18 mil contracts for bench players all with question fit and health issues. Those will all likely require an asset just to move, and we don't have any assets to attach to them. I am very curios what we are going to do with our 22. My guess is use it to get off either THJ or Bertans. Unless he has a major resurgence, it won't be enough to off Bertans. I feel like picks are less valuable during the draft then they are before hand when they can be seen as potential currency.
Can't talk about Brunson as an asset. As a UFA, he may not even be here. I feel like Dinwiddie negatively impacts his chances at signing here. If he walks next summer this FO failure will be complete.
I don't know what you want me to say, man.
Yes, the situation is terrible. We've all known that for over a year. I'm just happy they're trying to dig out from under, finally. The fact that you're so angry about this deal leads me to believe you wanted them to keep trying to make Porzingis work. I think that would've been worse.
(02-14-2022, 05:35 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]If he walks next summer this FO failure will be complete.
That's when we realize Nico isn't the savior and nothing has changed. A fire sale on 77 jerseys is rock bottom.
(02-14-2022, 05:28 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]But isn't the fact that you listed Dinwiddie in the rotation, combined with the likelihood (let's be honest) that KP would not have been, an indication that at least a little talent has been added? I mean, that's not even the selling point, for me, and again, I'm no Dinwiddie fan. But, I feel like they're about to get more out of him in the playoffs than they would've from Porzingis.
I'm lost. Why would I not pencil in KP as the starting center? Because of health issues? Not sure why I would be any more expectant of Dinwiddie (or Bertans for that matter) to be available?
(02-14-2022, 05:37 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]After next season.
Some of those contracts might be useful but my ratings are based on being viewed as a positive when building towards brining back better talent.
Missed that, sorry. I disagree slightly, then.
I think if THJ was healthy now, there would be interest in him. I think if/when Dinwiddie starts to play a little better, there will be interest in him. In my book, that's positive. That's what I believe.
The next deal will not be for Paul George or Giannis or anyone exciting at all, probably, but I think there will finally, finally be forward movement of some kind this summer. And, I think moving Porzingis (FINALLY) makes that more possible.
(02-14-2022, 05:41 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Missed that, sorry. I disagree slightly, then.
I think if THJ was healthy now, there would be interest in him. I think if/when Dinwiddie starts to play a little better, there will be interest in him. In my book, that's positive. That's what I believe.
The next deal will not be for Paul George or Giannis or anyone exciting at all, probably, but I think there will finally, finally be forward movement of some kind this summer. And, I think moving Porzingis (FINALLY) makes that more possible.
I'd move THJ to = closer to next years TDL, + the following season. That assumes current level of play.
(02-14-2022, 05:41 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I'm lost. Why would I not pencil in KP as the starting center? Because of health issues? Not sure why I would be any more expectant of Dinwiddie (or Bertans for that matter) to be available?
Ok, so it seems like you
really believe those guys are just as likely to be hurt as KP. I get that now. Previously, I thought that was hyperbolizing for effect.
I do not feel that way. I think every time KP runs up and down the court, there's a chance it could be the last game of his career. I think he is a total lost cause.
I think Dinwiddie is simply trying to get his rhythm back from one significant injury, and consequently has lower value right now. Not forever. I'm less familiar with Bertans' situation, but it honestly sounds like he was just not fitting in with or in the plans for WAS.
I don't know that I even think the health concerns are comparable. Hey, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I'm not going to worry about it - I'm going to be happy that this multi-year hell is over. If we're in a new, different one, I'll worry about that tomorrow. Today, I'm ordering 50 "KP is gone!" T-Shirts for all of my friends to wear when we go out. I'm ecstatic on that detail alone.
I really believe that Dinwiddie is the prize in the eyes of the MBT. That means Bertans will be the better player in the trade going off of recent history:
Rondo-Powell
KP-THJ
Reddick-Melli
(02-14-2022, 05:52 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]I really believe that Dinwiddie is the prize in the eyes of the MBT. That means Bertans will be the better player in the trade going off of recent history:
Rondo-Powell
KP-THJ
Reddick-Melli
Kidd -
Dudley
jk - I'm liking Kidd more and more. Just wanted to join in on the joke.
(02-14-2022, 05:38 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I don't know what you want me to say, man.
Yes, the situation is terrible. We've all known that for over a year. I'm just happy they're trying to dig out from under, finally. The fact that you're so angry about this deal leads me to believe you wanted them to keep trying to make Porzingis work. I think that would've been worse.
Lets say they did something like turn KP into Dragic and Holmes. That was brought up in the threads right before the TDL. The generally impression was that seemed light for KP. I would have been a little disappointed in the return, but happy to get off of KP. I would have been excited to see the team with a legit starting center who can P&R with Luka, protect the rim and rebound. Powell would have been in his perfect spot as a 15 minute energy backup center. Then you have DFS/Bullock/Maxi for your 3/4 spots. Dragic would have been the perfect 3rd PG and in playoffs its probably a Luka/Brunson/Dragic for the 1/2 spots. That is probably not a contender, but its a good team with a lot of fitting parts. It also has no real bad contracts, and room to maneuver next off season.
What we got was so much worse that our collective assumed light return for KP. This team feels like a bunch of ill fitting parts with some really bad contracts and no way to get better. It was such a gut punch. It seems like every offseason/TDL is more disappointing than the last.
(02-14-2022, 05:54 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]Lets say they did something like turn KP into Dragic and Holmes. That was brought up in the threads right before the TDL. The generally impression was that seemed light for KP. I would have been a little disappointed in the return, but happy to get off of KP. I would have been excited to see the team with a legit starting center who can P&R with Luka, protect the rim and rebound. Powell would have been in his perfect spot as a 15 minute energy backup center. Then you have DFS/Bullock/Maxi for your 3/4 spots. Dragic would have been the perfect 3rd PG and in playoffs its probably a Luka/Brunson/Dragic for the 1/2 spots. That is probably not a contender, but its a good team with a lot of fitting parts. It also has no real bad contracts, and room to maneuver next off season.
What we got was so much worse that our collective assumed light return for KP. This team feels like a bunch of ill fitting parts with some really bad contracts and no way to get better. It was such a gut punch. It seems like every offseason/TDL is more disappointing than the last.
I don't disagree with a word of this, pal. I'm right there with you.
Has it sunk in yet that they
couldn't do better than this? I mean, maybe Hakeem is right and they could've avoided including the 2nd, but Dragic/Holmes? It just doesn't seem like that was possible.
So, it was this or nothing. This, finish this season (or longer, if he gets hurt) pretending KP is the answer to ANY question...putting up with people wondering if he's being used right...watching him get pick and rolled to death. Or, bite the bullet and get on with fixing this. I'm not trying to tell you it's good.
We have now arrived at the first AA meeting. The Mavs finally admitted they blew it. Now starts the process of getting that 10 day chip, then then the 3 month, then the 2 year (however they do those in AA - you get my point).
The myth of John Collins, Holmes, Ben Simmons, whatever...that only existed here on this board.
(02-14-2022, 04:05 PM)Smitty Wrote: [ -> ]I think what you're saying is a fair opinion, it's just not one I agree with. For all the discussion on what KP is or isn't, what Dinwiddie is this year vs 2 years ago and the same for Bertans. It's literally the same thing for Dragic. Another guy making too much money that did something well a couple years ago. I'd rather see Green play ~15 min a night. OR showcase Dinwiddie the additional minutes. That's just where I am with it all. If Dragic wants to come here and never play a minute unless there is an injury to JB, SD or Green, then I guess I agree that the Mavs should add him (only at the expense of waiving Burke).
That's reasonable. I just don't see either of the pieces we acquired as having to overcome the same level of negative equity/persistent concerns as KP. We're talking about a player that's missed 40% of his career games and had almost 70 million coming to him over the next two years.
I don't see Green as viable for this season's playoffs but would love to be proven wrong. I don't doubt JB but we need to see this performance level in the playoffs before we can't begin to bank on it.
Dragic may or may not be necessary. Certainly with JB's growth and the Dinwiddie acquisition our desperate need for ball handlers isn't there anymore. Still, to close a season and make a playoff run in a year where the West isn't quite as murderous as usual, I'd feel better having him and being wrong than needing him and being right.
(02-14-2022, 04:07 PM)Jommybone Wrote: [ -> ]I assumed the relationship with Luka and agent = got a heads up Dragic would be more interested in playing for a contender the rest of this year. That would explain the last-minute effort to trade for him and the (possibly feigned) disinterest in him now.
I think you're spot on with that evaluation, most likely.
(02-14-2022, 06:05 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I don't disagree with a word of this, pal. I'm right there with you.
Has it sunk in yet that they couldn't do better than this? I mean, maybe Hakeem is right and they could've avoided including the 2nd, but Dragic/Holmes? It just doesn't seem like that was possible.
So, it was this or nothing. This, finish this season (or longer, if he gets hurt) pretending KP is the answer to ANY question...putting up with people wondering if he's being used right...watching him get pick and rolled to death. Or, bite the bullet and get on with fixing this. I'm not trying to tell you it's good.
We have now arrived at the first AA meeting. The Mavs finally admitted they blew it. Now starts the process of getting that 10 day chip, then then the 3 month, then the 2 year (however they do those in AA - you get my point).
The myth of John Collins, Holmes, Ben Simmons, whatever...that only existed here on this board.
One point I want to make. Holmes is not in the same category of Collins or Simmons. I did not have serious thoughts on those guys. But Holmes is a distressed asset right now. He is having a down year, and just got pushed to backup center. He is clearly unhappy. A 12 mil unhappy backup center is not an asset. We would basically have dumped KP for two mildly negative assets. It was practically a salary dump. That didn't seem like too much to ask for. Apparently it was (or this FO is terrible, I'm still struggling with which is the right answer).
(02-14-2022, 06:17 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]One point I want to make. Holmes is not in the same category of Collins or Simmons. I did not have serious thoughts on those guys. But Holmes is a distressed asset right now. He is having a down year, and just got pushed to backup center. He is clearly unhappy. A 12 mil unhappy backup center is not an asset. We would basically have dumped KP for two mildly negative assets. It was practically a salary dump. That didn't seem like too much to ask for. Apparently it was (or this FO is terrible, I'm still struggling with which is the right answer).
Point taken on Holmes as an asset, and I agree. But, for
anything to work, it has to begin with
someone willing to take KP. That's the part that was even more of a stretch than we realized.
It's all assumptions on the Toronto side. Rumors leaked it was KP + Pick (let's throw in Boucher for salary matching purposes) and that Dallas wanted "a lot more" and also Toronto "pulled out of the trade". Both Dragic and Boucher are expiring contracts. I'm assuming you could resign one or both and continue to operate over the cap. We also heard that draft compensation from Toronto was a first round pick. That's where I get skeptical unless it was highly, highly protected. Toronto owns all their future firsts and no others. And the reason I'm skeptical is it's also been reported that the Wizards deal was the only one on the table. So would you rather have:
-Dragic + Boucher + FRP. Both expiring.
-Dinwiddie + Bertans while giving up a SRP. SD coming off an ACL injury and DB on a long unfavorable contract. Both seemingly not fitting in with WAS.
The choice to me seems obvious which is why I doubt the validity.
(02-14-2022, 05:22 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]We are already a small ball team. The only 4 we have with size is Maxi, who is now our backup 5.
I think the opposite regarding lineups. We are not a "depth" team. We don't have a lot of quality depth. We have already moved our best depth/bench players to the starting lineup (Brunson/Powell/Maxi). I only see 7 guys worthy of real play off minutes. Our big rotation will be Powell/DFS/Maxi. The other three spots will be Luka/Brunson/Bullock/Dinwiddie. Maybe Bertans will make a turn around and not be a complete negative on the court like he has been all year. I'm not holding my breath. Don't think you want Green getting many minutes with his current offensive game.
Honestly if we have any hope of getting out of the first round (mine is dwindling) Dragic would likely be more valuable than Green or Bertans. I would have greatly preferred him to Dinwiddie due to contracts and I think that move has less potential to push Brunson out.
Small ball, meaning if Maxi goes down there's a great chance we have JB out there with 4 other guys in the 6'7 range & we're running like the wind.
We're absolutely a depth team. What I mean by that is, because we lack the talent in our starting 5 that you see from other, top teams, we have to play the sum being greater than the parts. Our team, outside of absolutely Luka and maybe JB, is comprised of role players. The problem with that is they're role players, ie you cannot assume their contribution every, single night. As such, you need options so you can create the wave to ride. This team will only win a series with a 7/8 man rotation if it gets the right matchup & Luka does playoff Luka.