(02-15-2022, 12:31 AM)Jommybone Wrote: [ -> ]Really? How? I feel like I am an outsider with zero access to whatever is going on in there. That’s why I have no clue who to blame. Do you truly have the ability to watch them closely?
I sort of agree with this. The only access I have is watching the games and this forum. I guess if one was to go nuclear and watch every single interview, radio and TV talking head show, and read every forum comment, every internet post, etc., then one might have better insight of the team and its workings.
But, then again, all of those things are simply opinions from other people. I usually like my opinions better than others.
I'm a Mavs fan--watching the games and reading this forum. This forum is the best...
So I just did a numbers exercise on the new guys per 36 for their career, best year, and current year. Averaged those over 24 mpg and this is what I came up with:
Spencer Dinwiddie: 12 PTS / 5 AST / 3 RBS
For comparison, here are the 24 mpg numbers for our own guys from last year and this year:
THJ: 12 PTS / 1 AST / 3 RBS
Brunson: 11 PTS / 3 AST / 3 RBS
Current year Bullock: 8 PTS / 1 AST / 3 RBS
And now for Davis Bertans:
10 PTS / 4 RBS / 6 3PA
And for the current Mavs comps:
Maxi: 7 PTS / 4 RBS
Powell: 7 PTS / 4 RBS
Would we all be ok with 12/5/3 from SD and 10/4 from Bertans off the bench?
You play Maxi and one of DFS or RB with Bertans and you're okay defensively. I'd like to see SD play some with Josh Green at the 2 as well.
(02-15-2022, 08:56 AM)HoosierDaddyKid Wrote: [ -> ]They could have very good games vs Miami (I doubt it though if Miami has all its key players) and then put up dismal numbers in their next few games. Then what?
I was trying to be as sarcastic as possible but I agree. It's hard to ever get a true sense of how these guys will fit in after a 1 game sample size.
My previous post was hoping for a positive outing just so a few of us here can back away from the ledge from trading KP for a subpar package. If Bertans and Dinwiddie look god awful, not only will the Mavs get ridiculed, but I can expect hundreds of posts calling out Nico and Cuban which will make me depressed.
Of course those people might be correct and that Dinwiddie+Bertans are washed and the Mavs made a bad trade. Orrrrrr they were the perfect guys to come off our bench. We can't know until probably 20-25 games in. I just want them to get off on a good foot.
(02-15-2022, 09:28 AM)Smitty Wrote: [ -> ]So I just did a numbers exercise on the new guys per 36 for their career, best year, and current year. Averaged those over 24 mpg and this is what I came up with:
Spencer Dinwiddie: 12 PTS / 5 AST / 3 RBS
For comparison, here are the 24 mpg numbers for our own guys from last year and this year:
THJ: 12 PTS / 1 AST / 3 RBS
Brunson: 11 PTS / 3 AST / 3 RBS
Current year Bullock: 8 PTS / 1 AST / 3 RBS
And now for Davis Bertans:
10 PTS / 4 RBS / 6 3PA
And for the current Mavs comps:
Maxi: 7 PTS / 4 RBS
Powell: 7 PTS / 4 RBS
Would we all be ok with 12/5/3 from SD and 10/4 from Bertans off the bench?
You play Maxi and one of DFS or RB with Bertans and you're okay defensively. I'd like to see SD play some with Josh Green at the 2 as well.
12 and 10 from both would be good. I wonder if we can find the minutes where Dinwiddie can get up to 15 points a game to be our third leading scorer? I don't think we can count on the 20 point Bullock games as standard. Not having a consistent third scorer is going to be tough. Can Dinwiddie be that when he is the backup to our two leading scorers?
Although looking at play, I would like to see like 6 three point shots a game from Bertans (maybe 18 minutes of play). Hopefully when on the court his defense doesn't stick out like a sore thumb. He needs to be aggressive looking for his shot.
For Dinwiddie, I want him to be able to play off Luka or Brunson. Be able to attack defense when the ball is rotated over to him and get to the rim. I would like to see limited three point shots...and very little three point shots off the dribble.
(02-15-2022, 10:15 AM)Chicagojk Wrote: [ -> ]https://www.theringer.com/nba/2022/2/15/...uka-doncic
Wow, what a great take on the situation. It's pretty much a medley of everyone's POV on this. Every time I'd get to a new paragraph, I was thinking about a poster here who has been making similar points. Pretty much every angle we've discussed is represented here.
This is the guy who used to run The Two Man Game, if I'm not mistaken, so he probably knows the Mavs better than most national guys.
(02-15-2022, 10:25 AM)Chicagojk Wrote: [ -> ]For Dinwiddie, I want him to be able to play off Luka or Brunson. Be able to attack defense when the ball is rotated over to him and get to the rim. I would like to see limited three point shots...and very little three point shots off the dribble.
The thing is I think Dinwiddie operates best when he has the ball. The Mavs to me essentially found their 6th man who can also create.
Gives both Brunson and Luka much needed rest. If Dinwiddie can command the bench for 10 mins (5 in the 2nd, and 5 in the 3rd) and then play another 10 with Luka/Brunson, then they found their guy.
(02-15-2022, 11:28 AM)Not an evil robot Wrote: [ -> ]Also the CEO, who structured his organization for success like he’s the smartest guy in every room, responds to gross allegations against a couple members of his marketing team by telling anyone he’s just been soooo focused on his Taco Bell restaurant. Seriously guys, so focused he couldn’t have known what was going on in marketing.
If anything, I'd pay to see a reenactment of the Mavs FO debacle in the form of disgruntled Taco Bell employees.
Before the trade, assuming KP is out with an injury. Which is an easy assumption.
Your bench in the playoffs: Kleber, Green and Burke - (Frank)
After the trade your bench is Kleber, Bertans, Dinwiddie - (Green)
Most here have been hammering the opinion that we need Dragic or similar to be the third ballhandler/scorer off the bench. They got it.
Most here have been adamant that we need to add another BIG/Wing that can shoot. They got it.
I'm more bullish about this teams chances in the playoffs than I was a week ago. If nothing else, trading away KP has sparked something in Luka...?
(02-15-2022, 11:53 AM)Smitty Wrote: [ -> ]Before the trade, assuming KP is out with an injury. Which is an easy assumption.
Your bench in the playoffs: Kleber, Green and Burke - (Frank)
After the trade your bench is Kleber, Bertans, Dinwiddie - (Green)
Most here have been hammering the opinion that we need Dragic or similar to be the third ballhandler/scorer off the bench. They got it.
Most here have been adamant that we need to add another BIG/Wing that can shoot. They got it.
I'm more bullish about this teams chances in the playoffs than I was a week ago. If nothing else, trading away KP has sparked something in Luka...?
In the playoffs all defenses take it up a notch. That’s why great teams or dynasties have always had multiple great or at least one great and multiple very good players. Now many would take exception to calling KP that and he struggled last year but we can’t just minimize the points and rebounds he gave.
Yep it is better to have some bodies than an injured KP but in the grand scheme of things would it change anything this year? No. IMO where it would change things is if we get a 2nd star. Then players like Dimwiddie and Bertans also move down one slot and get pegged correctly.
Again, I am not even sure if the MBT really expect much from these new guys. I think the priority was to get rid of KP at any cost and the second priority was getting some players with smaller contracts AND who fit a style that they want to build around Luka going forward. If they get excellent contributions from those two new guys it will be just a bonus.
(02-14-2022, 06:52 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]I'm confident we keep JB. I'm not confident at all we are keeping our pick. We really need to do both as well as nail the pick. We need to replace JB's trajectory on a rookie contract.
I'd love to nail the pick, too, but with JB's growth and depending on how confident DAL is in Green blossoming in Year 3 ..... I think it maybe as good as gone in trade with a player for an upgrade.
(02-14-2022, 07:42 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I wish I shared your confidence. I don't like the signal and potential ramifications of Dinwiddie. I feel like he may take the ball out of Brunson's hands, which will make him less effective and prolly less interested in staying here. We shall see.
In DAL, Dinwiddie is going to be with the 2nd unit. He offers very little when off the ball so his overlap with our lead guards should be minimal unless we're running a very small lineup, think SD/JB/LD/RB/DFS.
(02-15-2022, 11:53 AM)Smitty Wrote: [ -> ]Before the trade, assuming KP is out with an injury. Which is an easy assumption.
Your bench in the playoffs: Kleber, Green and Burke - (Frank)
After the trade your bench is Kleber, Bertans, Dinwiddie - (Green)
Most here have been hammering the opinion that we need Dragic or similar to be the third ballhandler/scorer off the bench. They got it.
Most here have been adamant that we need to add another BIG/Wing that can shoot. They got it.
I'm more bullish about this teams chances in the playoffs than I was a week ago. If nothing else, trading away KP has sparked something in Luka...?
I have seen multiple comments like this that it is reasonable to expect KP to be out with an injury during playoffs. I think this is exaggerated because he is gone and folks are trying to make themselves feel better about this shit burger. The reality is he has played over 60 percent of his available games, and many of the games he has missed were due to "precautions". I would argue he had a better than average chance of making it through the first playoff round healthy. We will never know now.
The ball handler plus offensive depth at the 4 were needs assuming KP was still here. With KP gone our biggest need probably shifted to a starting caliber center that can protect the rim and rebound. We have managed to limit this issue in some regular season games, but I expect this to be a bigger issue in the playoffs.
My expectations were that we would have a very low change of getting out of the first round without a healthy KP, and that thought has not changed after this trade.
(02-15-2022, 09:28 AM)Smitty Wrote: [ -> ]So I just did a numbers exercise on the new guys per 36 for their career, best year, and current year. Averaged those over 24 mpg and this is what I came up with:
Spencer Dinwiddie: 12 PTS / 5 AST / 3 RBS
For comparison, here are the 24 mpg numbers for our own guys from last year and this year:
THJ: 12 PTS / 1 AST / 3 RBS
Brunson: 11 PTS / 3 AST / 3 RBS
Current year Bullock: 8 PTS / 1 AST / 3 RBS
And now for Davis Bertans:
10 PTS / 4 RBS / 6 3PA
And for the current Mavs comps:
Maxi: 7 PTS / 4 RBS
Powell: 7 PTS / 4 RBS
Would we all be ok with 12/5/3 from SD and 10/4 from Bertans off the bench?
You play Maxi and one of DFS or RB with Bertans and you're okay defensively. I'd like to see SD play some with Josh Green at the 2 as well.
You touched on something here that I've been thinking about but not seen shared much. I think the potential for Dinwiddie to have a huge, positive impact on Green is enormous.
(02-15-2022, 12:17 PM)hakeemfaan Wrote: [ -> ]In the playoffs all defenses take it up a notch. That’s why great teams or dynasties have always had multiple great or at least one great and multiple very good players. Now many would take exception to calling KP that and he struggled last year but we can’t just minimize the points and rebounds he gave.
Yep it is better to have some bodies than an injured KP but in the grand scheme of things would it change anything this year? No. IMO where it would change things is if we get a 2nd star. Then players like Dimwiddie and Bertans also move down one slot and get pegged correctly.
Again, I am not even sure if the MBT really expect much from these new guys. I think the priority was to get rid of KP at any cost and the second priority was getting some players with smaller contracts AND who fit a style that they want to build around Luka going forward. If they get excellent contributions from those two new guys it will be just a bonus.
I agree with you that they were willing to trade KP, but I'm not as confident as you are that they did so with the idea that they were going to take anything they could get. I think they like the players enough, didn't have to add a pick or player and thought that the timing and return was sufficient. I truly believe some in the organization like Dinwiddie and want him to be here and succeed here in his bench role. Bertans at his best gives this team much needed outside shooting but imo Dinwiddie is the "prize" going forward and the hope for me is that he fits perfectly as the much needed 6th man role the Mavs need and/or becomes a positive asset again for trade purposes. I see those two things as somewhat likely whereas KP ever being an effective difference maker or healthy co-star as highly unlikely.
(02-15-2022, 12:40 PM)jdb152 Wrote: [ -> ]I'd love to nail the pick, too, but with JB's growth and depending on how confident DAL is in Green blossoming in Year 3 ..... I think it maybe as good as gone in trade with a player for an upgrade.
In DAL, Dinwiddie is going to be with the 2nd unit. He offers very little when off the ball so his overlap with our lead guards should be minimal unless we're running a very small lineup, think SD/JB/LD/RB/DFS.
I agree on the pick. It will go to offloading either THJ or Bertans. Bertans will have to up his game significantly or a late round first wont be nearly enough to dump him. THJ is the most likely casualty.
My concern is that I think Brunson is at his best when Luka is not on the court. If we put all of Brunson's minutes with Luka, it will dilute his output/value. Also, I don't believe Dinwiddie is going to be happy with the 12-15 minutes Luka/Brunson are not on the court. That means he will likely be playing some minutes with both. That will likely further dilute Brunson involvement. Maybe Brunson will be fine with becoming an undersized shooting guard, but I'm not sure that's the direction he wants to take.
(02-15-2022, 12:52 PM)Smitty Wrote: [ -> ]I agree with you that they were willing to trade KP, but I'm not as confident as you are that they did so with the idea that they were going to take anything they could get. I think they like the players enough, didn't have to add a pick or player and thought that the timing and return was sufficient. I truly believe some in the organization like Dinwiddie and want him to be here and succeed here in his bench role. Bertans at his best gives this team much needed outside shooting but imo Dinwiddie is the "prize" going forward and the hope for me is that he fits perfectly as the much needed 6th man role the Mavs need and/or becomes a positive asset again for trade purposes. I see those two things as somewhat likely whereas KP ever being an effective difference maker or healthy co-star as highly unlikely.
I think you're both right.
I think they felt they had to move KP, partly because it's obvious, and partly because
he wanted out. I think this entire Luka/KP thing has been so unsuccessful that Luka, KP and the FO all wanted to be done with it, mutually.
But, I agree that
they like Dinwiddie a lot more than most of the people here, including me. I think they believe he will add a dimension that offense has been lacking, especially since moving Brunson into the starting lineup.
(02-15-2022, 01:02 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]But, I agree that they like Dinwiddie a lot more than most of the people here, including me. I think they believe he will add a dimension that offense has been lacking, especially since moving Brunson into the starting lineup.
You know I am not (and have not been) a fan of the Mavs pursuing SD in the past, but I can say I have always liked the possibility of him so much better than the idea of Kemba.
My two big concerns with SD: three point shot and defense. That is what I am watching with him.
(02-15-2022, 12:52 PM)Smitty Wrote: [ -> ]I agree with you that they were willing to trade KP, but I'm not as confident as you are that they did so with the idea that they were going to take anything they could get. I think they like the players enough, didn't have to add a pick or player and thought that the timing and return was sufficient. I truly believe some in the organization like Dinwiddie and want him to be here and succeed here in his bench role. Bertans at his best gives this team much needed outside shooting but imo Dinwiddie is the "prize" going forward and the hope for me is that he fits perfectly as the much needed 6th man role the Mavs need and/or becomes a positive asset again for trade purposes. I see those two things as somewhat likely whereas KP ever being an effective difference maker or healthy co-star as highly unlikely.
So you think they didn't feel the need to trade KP, but getting two bench players on a combined 35 mil was a good return so they went ahead and pulled the trigger? Haven't we been saying for years that we need more starters on this team as opposed to "rotation" players. We thought it would make sense to trade an oft injured quality starter for two oft injured bench players that are currently terrible? I really hope this isn't true. I hope for some reason they felt they had to make a move and this ended up being the only thing on the table.
(02-15-2022, 01:08 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]So you think they didn't feel the need to trade KP, but getting two bench players on a combined 35 mil was a good return so they went ahead and pulled the trigger? Haven't we been saying for years that we need more starters on this team as opposed to "rotation" players. We thought it would make sense to trade an oft injured quality starter for two oft injured bench players that are currently terrible? I really hope this isn't true. I hope for some reason they felt they had to make a move and this ended up being the only thing on the table.
I think they knew they would need to move KP at some point, but weren't going to do so at any cost. I think they think this was a decent enough deal to make. I think Cuban and others really like Dinwiddie, for better or worse... What I think: Dinwiddie+Bertans becoming good again > KP ever working out.