(02-12-2022, 02:27 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]I think you can only trade '22 once selected. I don't think you can trade '24 because our owed '23 can become '24 (or '25). I think the end result is you could trade the '23 you acquired and '27.
You are right. 24 and 25 are theoretically owed to NY. So we would also need to lift the protection from 23. Than we have full flexibility. Forgot about this part.
(02-12-2022, 02:27 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]I think you can only trade '22 once selected. I don't think you can trade '24 because our owed '23 can become '24 (or '25). I think the end result is you could trade the '23 you acquired and '27.
Or, 23 and the next two legal picks.
(02-12-2022, 02:29 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]Or, 23 and the next two legal picks.
I wasn't sure if '29 qualified. I forget far out you are allowed to trade.
(02-12-2022, 10:50 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]I anticipate the Mavs will try to play him for 25-30 mins as they figure out his role. He will need to play with Luka some, but I think he needs to have the run of the team when Luka sits.
Isn’t it supposed to be JB who has the run of the team when Luka sits? Why is this not taken seriously? Every tome it’s brought up, there is never an answer, and then people keep talking as if JB is a lock to return. Good thing we traded away one large non-star problem for another.
(02-12-2022, 02:14 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]As long as it is an unprotected pick the Mavs are fine. But unprotected picks are pricy.
This is assuming the 23 pick is conveyed. If we acquire an unprotected 23, best we can do until our 23 is conveyed is trade THAT pick, or the protected part of our pick. 24 and 25 still have the possibility of not being ours, so 27 is still the next pick we can trade.
(02-12-2022, 02:31 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]I wasn't sure if '29 qualified. I forget far out you are allowed to trade.
Seven years, so 29 works after 22 is done.
(02-12-2022, 02:31 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Isn’t it supposed to be JB who has the run of the team when Luka sits?
Tim Cato said that it is more likely JB & Luka will play more together and SD will be given some time alone to run the team.
(02-12-2022, 01:52 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]I think I'd give my odds to the most desperate team and that would be the Mavs. They have no way of replacing him unless they hit another homerun in the draft.
Are we starting to get into the $22-24M range now?
(02-12-2022, 02:36 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Are we starting to get into the $22-24M range now?
Mavs are for sure in a nice bird trap.
(02-12-2022, 02:36 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Are we starting to get into the $22-24M range now?
Depends how ruthless Jalen and his agent want to be.
(02-12-2022, 02:35 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ] Tim Cato said that it is more likely JB & Luka will play more together and SD will be given some time alone to run the team.
SD is an irrational confidence guy with a lot of alpha in him, so it makes sense.
(02-12-2022, 02:31 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Isn’t it supposed to be JB who has the run of the team when Luka sits? Why is this not taken seriously? Every tome it’s brought up, there is never an answer, and then people keep talking as if JB is a lock to return. Good thing we traded away one large non-star problem for another.
I do share your concerns with the fit in Dinwiddie's specific case, especially when thinking of him playing
with Luka and Brunson. It might not be as bad as I fear, but if it is, I'm worried.
I also share your concern that the three roles, juxtaposed, might make one or more of them unhappy.
I guess I'm not as sure as you seem to be that anyone cares whether Dinwiddie is happy or not. I have to believe that Brunson, while not at Luka's status, will be noticeably higher on the pecking order here than Dinwiddie, and that this won't cause a situation wherein
Brunson is made uncomfortable enough to want to bail over it.
But, to be fair, if it
does work out like that, it will be a disaster imo.
It seems abundantly clear to me that Luka, Brunson, Dinwiddie, Bullock and THJ will not all be here next year. I'm assuming (by choice) right now that Luka and Brunson being back are givens (at least from the Mavs' choice perspective). I assume that at least one of the remaining three players will be moved, and possibly two. If that's not the case, and Brunson walks, I'm going to be disappointed that he was not packaged into a deal at this deadline.
(02-12-2022, 02:36 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Are we starting to get into the $22-24M range now?
I think he's been there. I think the low end of the numbers you hear are from people who still think of him as a key bench player. I believe the team that signs him will view him as a key starter, and the kind you build around. Like a 2nd or 3rd best player type of piece.
(02-12-2022, 02:41 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I think he's been there. I think the low end of the numbers you hear are from people who still think of him as a key bench player. I believe the team that signs him will view him as a key starter, and the kind you build around. Like a 2nd or 3rd best player type of piece.
-Hometown discount
-No state income taxes
-Random Luka hugs when you are both in foul trouble
![[Image: wish-cross-my-fingers.gif]](https://c.tenor.com/IkE9TKo7vY4AAAAM/wish-cross-my-fingers.gif)
(02-12-2022, 02:35 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]
Tim Cato said that it is more likely JB & Luka will play more together and SD will be given some time alone to run the team.
This is usually where Burkemede jumps in and says Luka and Brunson are the best pairing in the history of mankind (or somesuch). To his credit, what started out as a shaky pairing has improved dramatically. The pairing is +7.6 since 1/1/22 (not long ago it was 2.1).
All of the Luka pairings and all of the Brunson pairings with Bullock, Powell and DFS have been fantastic over that timeframe. That group seems to have really clicked for some reason, but it knocked the bench down to basically Maxi and Green (his defensive numbers since 1/1/22 are unbelievable BTW). Adding the two Wiz players to supplement the bench is nice for the bench, but it also means we can play more of the five that has been working so well if we want to.
(02-11-2022, 08:39 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Let's talk about this.
Here are list of players for comparison. It has their salaries starting with next year to the end of the current contract.
Bertans (just turned 29 years old, career 40.0% three point shooter)
$16M, $17M, $16M ($5M guaranteed, player option)
THJ (about to turn 30 years old, career 35.8% three point shooter)
$19.6M, $17.9M, $16.2M
Duncan Robinson (about to turn 28 years old, career 40.8% three point shooter)
$16.9M, $18.1M, $19.4M, $19.9M
Buddy Hield (just turned 29 years old, career 40.0% three point shooter)
$20.5M, $18.6M
(02-11-2022, 08:46 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, I guess the assumption is that he has fallen out of favor in Washington because he's sooooo bad defensively that he's almost unplayable. And, that these days he's not even a good shooter anymore.
If that's all true, the deal is plenty bad - worse than the others you highlight there, for sure. All those dudes are rotation players when healthy.
But, if you and @"DanSchwartzgan" are right, and the guy is capable of decent team defense and about to start splashing corner 3's again, I agree that the deal is not nearly the albatross it's being made out to be.
Regarding the shooting, many people around here got really mad at me once for comparing THJ to this guy as a shooter. I can't remember who it was, but somebody I respect told me he had an even quicker release, better relocation skills, etc. Basically, that he was in an entirely different class of shooting specialist.
It's a wait and see thing for me.
My thinking with Bertans is that the real role for KP was found by Rick. He's an outside spot up that can stretch the floor. KP has reached a point where the knee injuries are taking their toll. It's not just that he's injured all the time. But, now we are seeing it become a detriment to his mobility on D. He's not the same player he was even in the Bubble at this point. He could still block shots due to height and play some anchor in spots. But, he wasn't consistently more than just help D.
Bertans is a better spot up shooter than KP. He isn't awful on D. He's probably average at best. However, he can play help D as shown in his time with the Spurs. Most importantly he knows his role.
I would much rather have a slightly overpaid role player that knows his role and doesn't complain about touches. KP was considerably overpaid and doesn't want to admit that he's a role player. He didn't like the role Rick put him in even though the team was better for it. He liked that Kidd considered him as part of the offense. But, the offense has struggled this year vs last.
Now with KP gone and Bertans in that spot up role that Rick had KP in they can move into more of a flowing offense that will stretch the floor and create space. The spacing this year has been tight because of KP. Defense is more about scheme and team than individual great defenders. Look at Pop's Spurs all these years. Even when they don't have great defenders they can still defend. Dallas has proven they can play D just fine without KP. Now they can also spread the floor and try to open up the Offense.
(02-12-2022, 02:58 PM)audiosway Wrote: [ -> ]My thinking with Bertans is that the real role for KP was found by Rick. He's an outside spot up that can stretch the floor. KP has reached a point where the knee injuries are taking their toll. It's not just that he's injured all the time. But, now we are seeing it become a detriment to his mobility on D. He's not the same player he was even in the Bubble at this point. He could still block shots due to height and play some anchor in spots. But, he wasn't consistently more than just help D.
Bertans is a better spot up shooter than KP. He isn't awful on D. He's probably average at best. However, he can play help D as shown in his time with the Spurs. Most importantly he knows his role.
I would much rather have a slightly overpaid role player that knows his role and doesn't complain about touches. KP was considerably overpaid and doesn't want to admit that he's a role player. He didn't like the role Rick put him in even though the team was better for it. He liked that Kidd considered him as part of the offense. But, the offense has struggled this year vs last.
Now with KP gone and Bertans in that spot up role that Rick had KP in they can move into more of a flowing offense that will stretch the floor and create space. The spacing this year has been tight because of KP. Defense is more about scheme and team than individual great defenders. Look at Pop's Spurs all these years. Even when they don't have great defenders they can still defend. Dallas has proven they can play D just fine without KP. Now they can also spread the floor and try to open up the Offense.
These are all good thoughts. My primary reason for hoping Davis and SD work out is that it creates more opportunities for the Mavs to be creative. If they (SD and DB) are even a neutral trade asset then the FO (Nico and Baker) will have so many more options than they would with the KP contract. Even one of them resurrecting their career to a degree helps immensely. I think in a new system, and with hopefully a determination to become good players again (which is tad iffy) either or both can be 80% of the players they were in their best year. If this happens, we win the trade, period. KP is never, ever going to be a neutral trade asset with those knees and that salary........and will be difficult to trade. If it does not happen, we still have more cap flexibility than we had. The trade, I think, was probably heavily influenced by the capologist on the Mavs (Baker). As mentioned previously, I think this trade was about the future. It MIGHT impact this year, due to losing rim protection....we will see. These new additions might also be able to offset the increased lack of rim protection with good depth.
(02-12-2022, 02:58 PM)audiosway Wrote: [ -> ]My thinking with Bertans is that the real role for KP was found by Rick. He's an outside spot up that can stretch the floor. KP has reached a point where the knee injuries are taking their toll. It's not just that he's injured all the time. But, now we are seeing it become a detriment to his mobility on D. He's not the same player he was even in the Bubble at this point. He could still block shots due to height and play some anchor in spots. But, he wasn't consistently more than just help D.
Bertans is a better spot up shooter than KP. He isn't awful on D. He's probably average at best. However, he can play help D as shown in his time with the Spurs. Most importantly he knows his role.
I would much rather have a slightly overpaid role player that knows his role and doesn't complain about touches. KP was considerably overpaid and doesn't want to admit that he's a role player. He didn't like the role Rick put him in even though the team was better for it. He liked that Kidd considered him as part of the offense. But, the offense has struggled this year vs last.
Now with KP gone and Bertans in that spot up role that Rick had KP in they can move into more of a flowing offense that will stretch the floor and create space. The spacing this year has been tight because of KP. Defense is more about scheme and team than individual great defenders. Look at Pop's Spurs all these years. Even when they don't have great defenders they can still defend. Dallas has proven they can play D just fine without KP. Now they can also spread the floor and try to open up the Offense.
So much great truth in here. Thanks for this!
(02-12-2022, 03:26 PM)Davemo Wrote: [ -> ]My primary reason for hoping Davis and SD work out is that it creates more opportunities for the Mavs to be creative. If they are even a neutral trade asset then the FO (Nico and Baker) will have so many more options than they would with the KP contract. Even one of them resurrecting their career to a degree helps immensely. I think in a new system, and with hopefully a determination to become good players again (which is tad iffy) either or both can be 80% of the players they were in their best year. If this happens, we win the trade, period. KP is never, ever going to be a neutral trade asset with those knees and that salary........and will be difficult to trade. If it does not happen, we still have more cap flexibility than we had. The trade, I think, was probably heavily influenced by the capologist on the Mavs (Baker). Just my thoughts.
Nico in his brief presser used the word "flexibility" like four times in a minute. I think you are hitting on part of what he meant by that.
(02-12-2022, 02:41 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]It seems abundantly clear to me that Luka, Brunson, Dinwiddie, Bullock and THJ will not all be here next year
Obviously Luka and I think Brunson and Bullock will stay long term. I would bet money that THJ is next to go this summer considering they shopped him hard at the deadline. Then probably Dinwiddie the summer after that since he's only guaranteed 10 million in 2023-2024.
Luka/Brunson/DFS/Bullock/Maxi/Powell/Green are basically your core that will stick around long term IMO. Then we'll use our picks and the contracts of the others to make trades to continue to upgrade.
(02-12-2022, 03:26 PM)Davemo Wrote: [ -> ]These are all good thoughts. My primary reason for hoping Davis and SD work out is that it creates more opportunities for the Mavs to be creative. If they (SD and DB) are even a neutral trade asset then the FO (Nico and Baker) will have so many more options than they would with the KP contract. Even one of them resurrecting their career to a degree helps immensely. I think in a new system, and with hopefully a determination to become good players again (which is tad iffy) either or both can be 80% of the players they were in their best year. If this happens, we win the trade, period.
The trade, I think, was probably heavily influenced by the capologist on the Mavs (Baker). As mentioned previously, I think this trade was about the future. It MIGHT impact this year, due to losing rim protection....we will see. These new additions might also be able to offset the increased lack of rim protection with good depth.
Great stuff. Here's a technique we've not thought of regarding 2023...
How the Heat and Thunder hid one of the most creative trades in recent NBA history inside of a KZ Okpala deal
Miami and Oklahoma City are both experts at navigating the CBA
[url=https://www.cbssports.com/writers/sam-quinn/][/url]
By Sam Quinn
No team does a better job of dancing around the collective bargaining agreement than the Miami Heat. General manager Andy Elisburg has spent the past decade coming up with innovative ways to eke out extra cap space and duck the luxury tax against seemingly insurmountable odds, and on Wednesday, he and Pat Riley worked their magic yet again to sidestep the league's restrictive Stepien Rule.
The Heat have long-owed the Thunder a first-round pick in 2023. That pick was originally lottery-protected in 2023, 2024 and 2025 before becoming unprotected in 2026. Those protections made it virtually impossible for them to trade any first-round picks, because the fact those picks might convey in any one of those years meant that the Heat couldn't trade their picks in any of them. Further complicating matters was the Stepien Rule, which prevents teams from being without a first-round pick in consecutive years. Even though the pick wasn't owed until between 2023-2026, that rule prevented them from dealing their selections in 2022 and 2027 as well. That essentially meant that the Heat could only offer their 2028 choice in any deadline deal. As the Lakers and Jazz have found out, picks so far in the future tend not to have as much trade value as they should.
So the Heat found a workaround. On Wednesday, they made a seemingly innocuous trade with the Thunder, sending KZ Okpala to Oklahoma City for a second-round pick. Hidden deep in the press release, though, was the revelation that the Heat and Thunder had also agreed to amend the protections on that pick. Now, instead of conveying between 2023 and 2026, it can only convey in 2025 or 2026.
This has enormous short-term trade implications for the Heat. Since they aren't giving away a first-round pick until 2025, they suddenly have access to either the 2022 or 2023 pick for a possible deal. They could use that pick to upgrade at the deadline, or they could save it for the offseason and package both of them together for something bigger. The Stepien Rule does not work backward. Once the Heat actually make their 2022 pick, the Stepien Rule doesn't apply to it, theoretically allowing them to make the pick on behalf of another team before consummating a trade. If the Heat go hunting for another superstar this offseason as they so often do, having multiple upcoming first-round picks to dangle will likely be quite helpful.
The agreement might benefit Oklahoma City just as much. The Heat are almost certain to be a playoff team in 2023 considering their present-day talent. That would have given the Thunder a selection likely to fall in the teens or 20's. Even if Miami miraculously fell off of a cliff, the Thunder would still have to survive two more lottery seasons from the Heat to get to an unprotected pick in 2026. Now? They only need Miami to miss the playoffs once, in 2025, to get that unprotected choice.
Is that likely? Probably not, considering the presence of Bam Adebayo and Tyler Herro. But don't rule it out. Jimmy Butler is 32 now and will be 35 in 2025. The contracts of Kyle Lowry and P.J. Tucker will have expired by then, and both will likely have aged out of productivity if they're even on the roster at all. It's not hard to imagine a scenario where one injury-riddled Heat season gets Oklahoma City the unprotected first-round pick of a team paying a 36-year-old Butler $52 million. That's a pretty enviable position to be in, and the Thunder didn't have to give up any extra assets to get there beyond the 2026 second-rounder they nominally surrendered for Okpala.
Is the Mavs 1st round pick going to be enough to dump THJ this offseason? I'm not sure what the going rate is to absorb 3yrs $54m coming off a broken foot. It seems like Dinwiddie might be easier to get rid of with only 2 years left.