(02-14-2022, 01:24 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Bertans in his career has not been a big negative to his team's D. He generally breaks even.
SD will be the issue on D from my seat because I don't think he is as good a team defender as DB, BUT he at least has a bigger body and decent wingspan (compared to someone like Kemba or JB). So the tools are there if he can be more locked in to his defensive job and rotations.
To be fair to Kidd, he has me believing DP is a good defender. I'll take the wait and see approach on the new guys buying into what Kidd is selling before i make a blanket statement on them being bad or unable to play defense. Sometimes it can be as simple as effort. Winning generally leads to more effort....
I assume Davis is an elite shooter. I assume Spencer is an exceptional non-shooting PG. That still doesn’t mean they’re better than our top 7-9 guys.
Maxi is a very good on-ball defender who also gets you decent shooting and rim protection. That’s a whale of a lot to give up for just better shooting.
Trey can create and shoot low-efficiency shots. Hard to see significant improvement over that if Spencer can’t defend.
My view: both of these guys have to become at least average defenders to play ahead of their end-of-the-bench teammates. Fingers crossed they can do that.
(02-14-2022, 01:21 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Well, I agree with that, especially with the way the defense has improved this season.
But (and I'm trying to help you feel better here, not trying to argue with you):
1) The offense this year is BAD and needs help. We all agree.
2) Kidd, the guy fixing the defense, had to have signed off on this. So we can reasonably assume he thought it was at least worth a try.
3) Harrison actually talked positively about Bertans' defense in his presser. I didn't feel it was spin. To be clear, he could easily be wrong, but I believe that he evaluated this as a factor and came to a different conclusion than what's being stated around here. I don't know what to expect, but I'm somewhat comforted that this was factored into the decision.
1 - I thought getting KP off the team was the help needed.
2 - Not necessarily, since this was the only available trade.
3 - I hope he and you guys touting him being something on defense are right, here's to hope, now...can we just have some games played to talk about for gosh sakes?
(02-14-2022, 01:24 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Bertans in his career has not been a big negative to his team's D. He generally breaks even.
SD will be the issue on D from my seat because I don't think he is as good a team defender as DB, BUT he at least has a bigger body and decent wingspan (compared to someone like Kemba or JB). So the tools are there if he can be more locked in to his defensive job and rotations.
Not sure where you are getting this? EPM and Lebron both have Bertans as roughly -1 for the last three years. That is not good. He is very slow laterally and not strong. He would have to play really high BBIQ to make up for his physical limitations, and he has not done it to this point.
I would be shocked, like absolutely floored, if Gordon (Houston) isn’t traded on draft night for a pick in the 20s. Grant and Barnes are a bit trickier, as the Pistons and Kings, respectively, could opt to extend them this offseason, and the Kings likely will be trying to win next season. However, for each, the formulation (bad contract + known 2022 first + maybe other picks in the future) offers more certainty and thus seems more workable in June than February.
********************
From Hollinger's latest article. I hope we have bigger plans than Gordon. I would stay away from Barnes. I don't think he really matters at the end of the day. I am not a huge fan of Grant and like him better as your #3. Would it make sense if he is your second best player?
(02-14-2022, 02:00 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]Not sure where you are getting this?
On/Off D for his whole career...a sample size of 7074 NBA minutes:
2021-22: -1.1
2020-21: +1.3
2019-20: +0.2
2018-19: +1.7
2017-18: +3.4
2016-17: +3.8
Some of those teams weren't very good defensively and there are a host of other factors, but point being in the entirety of his career his presence on the court has not had a big negative impact on the team's defensive performance.
I am NOT saying he is a "good" defender (especially individually). But I think he is a passable to decent TEAM defender. He will do his damn job on the defensive end as best he can. That is the single most important thing to me.
Everyone has a video that can prove something.
However, I think it's fair to assume Bertans is not going to be a plus defender. That's a given. But we know that about several Mavs players. We knew it about Seth Curry and we know it about Tim Hardaway. We know it about Powell. We even know it about Brunson. Josh Richardson couldn't remain in the lineup even though he was considered at the time to be a plus defender. If J Green could hit outside shots with NBA regularity, he might be in the Mavs starting lineup. If you can't his shots, you can't have a lot of minutes.
Bertans will be a net positive in some games, but I don't expect his minutes to increase substantially until we know his shot fall at a good percentage.
That video has DB's defensive strengths as:
"Good awareness and knowledge of schemes."
"Quick on rotations and gives multiple efforts."
These are literally my two biggest desires from ANY defender and what I think is most important for good team D.
(02-14-2022, 02:30 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]On/Off D for his whole career...a sample size of 7074 NBA minutes:
2021-22: -1.1
2020-21: +1.3
2019-20: +0.2
2018-19: +1.7
2017-18: +3.4
2016-17: +3.8
Some of those teams weren't very good defensively and there are a host of other factors, but point being in the entirety of his career his presence on the court has not had a big negative impact on the team's defensive performance.
I am NOT saying he is a "good" defender (especially individually). But I think he is a passable to decent TEAM defender. He will do his damn job on the defensive end as best he can. That is the single most important thing to me.
It would be great if he could be mediocre, but then there is his poor rebounding, his inability to create his own shot; the problem isn’t just his defense - it’s everything, including his shooting at the moment.
We’re sitting here talking about a guy racking up “DNP - coaches decision” like he’s going to step in and immediately take all of KPs minutes and solve some major problem the Mavs have.
(02-14-2022, 01:30 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]1 - I thought getting KP off the team was the help needed.
It soooo was. In a variety of ways.
Again, two separate conversations for me.
I am happy KP is gone. NOTHING the new guys do/don't do will change that. For that matter, neither will anything KP does in Washington.
I am hoping the new guys can be closer to the rosier predictions than the pessimistic ones. I can see validity in both sets of predications. I am probably somewhere in between.
KP is gone!!!! We should all be meeting up to party. Instead, we're wasting this brief period of relief from regret to prematurely complain about how bad the new guys are (there will be plenty of time for that later) and dwell on where the team is now, relative to when Luka was drafted (that IS a depressing topic).
But KP is gone!!!!!!! Things are possible again.
(02-14-2022, 02:36 PM)soog Wrote: [ -> ]his poor rebounding
The team rebounding % On/Off for DB over his career:
2021-22: +0.5%
2020-21: +1.1%
2019-20: -0.4%
2018-19: +0.8%
2017-18: -2.0%
2016-17: -0.8%
I think this is a concern (more than D IMO). But his team's have rebounded better in 3 of the last 4 seasons when he has been on the court.
I'm too lazy to scroll through the pages so I'll just ask y'all here. Given his ability to shoot, why would we not continue to pursue Dragic. Due to Dinwiddie's size, there is no issue pairing them as the second team backcourt, in my eyes. I would much rather have him here getting minutes than Burke. It would also help tremendously should Luka get dinged up and need to sit or have minutes managed for a stretch. Unless the concern is simply that we don't have the minutes to meet what he is looking for, I fail to see why DAL wouldn't continue their pursuit there. What am I missing or failing to consider?
(02-14-2022, 02:36 PM)soog Wrote: [ -> ]Weâre sitting here talking about a guy racking up âDNP - coaches decisionâ like heâs going to step in and immediately take all of KPs minutes and solve some major problem the Mavs have.
No one is saying that that I've seen. Almost to a person, everyone is saying we traded our flawed player for their flawed players.
(02-14-2022, 02:41 PM)jdb152 Wrote: [ -> ]I'm too lazy to scroll through the pages so I'll just ask y'all here. Given his ability to shoot, why would we not continue to pursue Dragic. Due to Dinwiddie's size, there is no issue pairing them as the second team backcourt, in my eyes. I would much rather have him here getting minutes than Burke. It would also help tremendously should Luka get dinged up and need to sit or have minutes managed for a stretch. Unless the concern is simply that we don't have the minutes to meet what he is looking for, I fail to see why DAL wouldn't continue their pursuit there. What am I missing or failing to consider?
I'm still not 100% sure they are not going to pick him up if he's bought out.
(02-13-2022, 11:23 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Good thoughts. I think most of us share this POV.
Despite the fun to read argument between @"Kammrath" and @"F Gump" for the past few pages about the history of the Mavs FO, both of them have led the charge about the idea that all signs point to Nico Harrison having been given the keys (for now). Personally, I am starting to agree, mostly because the decision to admit the Porzingis deal was a mistake (finally) seems like something that Cuban would've been reluctant to do in the past.
I think it's just going to take some folks a little while to recognize that Cuban has changed, though it confounds me that so many seem to believe he is incapable of growth. Yes, we need to see it but, for me, all indicators are that Cuban has placed the organization into the hands of Harrison/Kidd.
(02-14-2022, 02:40 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]It soooo was. In a variety of ways.
Again, two separate conversations for me.
I am happy KP is gone. NOTHING the new guys do/don't do will change that. For that matter, neither will anything KP does in Washington.
I am hoping the new guys can be closer to the rosier predictions than the pessimistic ones. I can see validity in both sets of predications. I am probably somewhere in between.
KP is gone!!!! We should all be meeting up to party. Instead, we're wasting this brief period of relief from regret to prematurely complain about how bad the new guys are (there will be plenty of time for that) and dwell on where the team is now, relative to when Luka was drafted (that IS a depressing topic).
But KP is gone!!!!!!! Things are possible again.
After a few days this is about where Ive landed as well. I spent the entire offseason posting on here about how KP has to go for all the various reasons we've discussed. From the situation we find ourselves in now, the roster building will be difficult. But if nothing else we are no longer delusional and banking on a hope.
(02-14-2022, 02:35 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]That video has DB's defensive strengths as:
"Good awareness and knowledge of schemes."
"Quick on rotations and gives multiple efforts."
These are literally my two biggest desires from ANY defender and what I think is most important for good team D.
The two biggest desires I have for any defender is good lateral quickness and a large wingspan.
I have great awareness and knowledge of schemes and give lots of effort - you don’t want me out there trying to guard anyone in the nba.
(02-14-2022, 02:42 PM)Winter Wrote: [ -> ]No one is saying that that I've seen. Almost to a person, everyone is saying we traded our flawed player for their flawed players.
I'm still not 100% sure they are not going to pick him up if he's bought out.
I know there will be fierce competition from MIL, MIA & LAL but we need to be in there. Period.
(02-14-2022, 02:52 PM)soog Wrote: [ -> ]The two biggest desires I have for any defender is good lateral quickness and a large wingspan.
I have great awareness and knowledge of schemes and give lots of effort - you don’t want me out there trying to guard anyone in the nba.
As anyone can tell you I am a "wingspan junkie" and it is something I care about massively.
I am not talking about what I want from random, short, out of shape guys sitting on their couches....but what I want from NBA players (guys whose size and athleticism has gotten them to this point).
If an NBA player 1) knows what he is supposed to do on D, 2) does it quickly, and 3) never gives up on a play? That guy is going to be "fine" on the defensive end. And the numbers bear that out for DB in his career.
(02-14-2022, 02:52 PM)soog Wrote: [ -> ]The two biggest desires I have for any defender is good lateral quickness and a large wingspan.
I have great awareness and knowledge of schemes and give lots of effort - you don’t want me out there trying to guard anyone in the nba.
Are you 6'10 with a long history of playing professional basketball, though? LOL
I hear you, still, a player with great awareness and effort, who is led by a defensive minded coach, is rarely going to be the death of you on that end. All we need out of DB is to not be a turnstile and tax his teammates on that end of the court. When he's knocking down 55% of his corner shots, none of us will care that he's meh on defense.