(05-13-2022, 07:12 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]Would it take something besides Green and Pick to talk Indy into Bertans? If so, what?
Another pick. Or two
I'm slowly getting onboard the Turner bandwagon. I went back and watched a few Pacers games the other day, and he was more mobile that I expected.
Oddly enough, the last game he played this year was against Phoenix. They primarily had him in drop coverage, but he was also able to aggressively hedge and recover to his man. The few times he ended up isolated against Paul or Booker he moved his feet well and contested pullup jumpers. Even though he's no Kleber on the perimeter, it didn't feel like he would be out of place in the Mavs system.
I do think his 3 point shooting is a bit overrated. He hasn't been that great from the corners at all. He just turned 26 so maybe there's still time to improve, especially with higher quality looks.
As far as what the deal would be, I think you're looking at Powell+Green+26 at a minimum. This seems to work from the numbers I'm seeing, although it's extremely close. Shouldn't be a problem to throw in another small expiring if needed to make it work. But I think Indy would likely demand a future protected 1st as well. I'm kind of on the fence about that given his injury history and the new contract Dallas would have to give him after next season.
Don't see any way we dupe them into taking Bertans. His contract is just too awful. Maybe in another year.
(05-13-2022, 07:48 AM)loki Wrote: [ -> ]I'm slowly getting onboard the Turner bandwagon. I went back and watched a few Pacers games the other day, and he was more mobile that I expected.
Oddly enough, the last game he played this year was against Phoenix. They primarily had him in drop coverage, but he was also able to aggressively hedge and recover to his man. The few times he ended up isolated against Paul or Booker he moved his feet well and contested pullup jumpers. Even though he's no Kleber on the perimeter, it didn't feel like he would be out of place in the Mavs system.
I do think his 3 point shooting is a bit overrated. He hasn't been that great from the corners at all. He just turned 26 so maybe there's still time to improve, especially with higher quality looks.
As far as what the deal would be, I think you're looking at Powell+Green+26 at a minimum. This seems to work from the numbers I'm seeing, although it's extremely close. Shouldn't be a problem to throw in another small expiring if needed to make it work. But I think Indy would likely demand a future protected 1st as well. I'm kind of on the fence about that given his injury history and the new contract Dallas would have to give him after next season.
Don't see any way we dupe them into taking Bertans. His contract is just too awful. Maybe in another year.
I think Turner probably makes the most sense as a target. If Rick has any input I'm not sure Green is going to be much of a sell considering he never played him. Maybe they want to do a culture reset and bring in Powell and THJ? Maybe we can send the pick and take on some crappy contract?
(05-13-2022, 08:22 AM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I think Turner probably makes the most sense as a target. If Rick has any input I'm not sure Green is going to be much of a sell considering he never played him. Maybe they want to do a culture reset and bring in Powell and THJ? Maybe we can send the pick and take on some crappy contract?
I tend to agree on Green. That's why I think they'll demand more, even though technically Green + 26 meets their previous request of either 2 1sts or a 1st and a prospect. I'd love to sell them THJ if RC still wants him, but he feels redundant with Hield already on the roster.
The problem with taking another bad contract in addition to Turner is the luxury tax is going to get crazy expensive. Probably a $100M+ tax bill at that point.
Indy is really in a terrible situation. A misconstructed roster with way too many (mostly veteran) guards. Haliburton is their only promising young player, Turner is their only frontcourt player of value. Veteran coach that might be tired of working through a long tank period.
Best way forward for them would be a 3-4 year hard tank job, cashing in on every possible asset and taking the league's worst contracts to get favor of picks or young players. Project the team around a 25-26year old Haliburton. Being 4 years older, Turner is just a bit too old for this window, but they really need to get some value out of him, because Hield (character) and Brogdon (health) come with some red flags and are both win-now players at already 29.
(05-13-2022, 08:22 AM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe we can send the pick and take on some crappy contract?
Indy is way below the cap line, so I don't think they really care about crappy contracts. Besides, they would likely want expiring ones back, which we don't really have as we would not be enthusiastic to include Bullock or Kleber in such a trade. I think picks are the only real asset that could motivate Indy. I doubt the result (take useful vet players back) will be their first priority.
(05-13-2022, 08:55 AM)Halfnir Wrote: [ -> ]Haliburton is their only promising young player
They have Duarte, who is 24 and is likely a solid starter. Goga and Jackson showed some potential once they got the playing time. They will likely have a very high FRP this season.
(05-13-2022, 05:06 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]According to Indy beat writer:
- Brogdon is gone if someone offers something
- Hield is likely gone (in a Indy SRP for FRP kind of deal)
- Turner is 50-50
IMO, Turner is probably the main option from this group for DAL.
I know Hield is supposedly bad on defense, but is his outside shot reliable enough to help with some of the scoring deserts DAL seems to go through?
(05-13-2022, 09:30 AM)michaeltex Wrote: [ -> ]IMO, Turner is probably the main option from this group for DAL.
I know Hield is supposedly bad on defense, but is his outside shot reliable enough to help with some of the scoring deserts DAL seems to go through?
I would rather stick with Timmy. Hield is an even worse defender, they have been roughly the same offensively the last 3 seasons, and Tim is a high character guy, and I'm not sure Hield falls in that category.
(05-13-2022, 07:48 AM)loki Wrote: [ -> ]Don't see any way we dupe them into taking Bertans. His contract is just too awful. Maybe in another year.
You may be correct, however the way Bertans is playing in the playoffs could help his value. Not the most skilled defender, but you can't fault his effort and he is a no-memory 3 point gunner.
TBH, I'm not crying if we end up keeping him for another season and see if the staff can get him to live up to his scoring rep, but I'm OK if he has to go to get someone like a Turner.
(05-13-2022, 09:38 AM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I would rather stick with Timmy. Hield is an even worse defender, they have been roughly the same offensively the last 3 seasons, and Tim is a high character guy, and I'm not sure Hield falls in that category.
Can't disagree. THJ seemed to lose his shooting during the season and never really got it back before the injury. Maybe he gets motivated while watching the team success and is able to rachet up his performance.
(05-13-2022, 09:38 AM)michaeltex Wrote: [ -> ]You may be correct, however the way Bertans is playing in the playoffs could help his value.
I doubt anyone would look at him and see a starter. He is a good 15 minute specialist role player, imho. Unfortunately, that is not worth 16 mil. More like 3 mil.
(05-13-2022, 09:30 AM)michaeltex Wrote: [ -> ]IMO, Turner is probably the main option from this group [Turner, Brogdon, Hield] for DAL.
No question.
Powell + ______ ($2m-ish salary or more) works as a salary match in June. I'd prefer to recognize that the rest of such a trade is basically salary-match filler that won't move the needle for Indy, so I'd want to send Brown's expiring (not the similarly salaried Green) as the filler.
Hardaway works any time. Whether they'd see his contract as more value or less is uncertain.
Note - Hardaway-Powell-Brown matches a Turner-Hield combo.
Whether it makes sense to target Turner will depend on how much more Indy is looking to get. He's an expiring, so Indy may feel compelled to move him before he hits free agency, but they will presumably want more value than Powell or Hardaway. Hardaway's 3 years locked up at medium salary (average about 17.7M) may be seen as a fairly-desirable deal for some teams and an obstacle to cap room for others.
I would love Turner or Capela, and a Holmes addition would get my attention, at least.
However, and I realize I am one of the last who'll type this with a genuine heart, I STILL don't think center is the problem. I definitely don't like what Powell is giving the team during this series (other than discouraging pick and roll for any purpose other than getting an iso matchup PHX prefers) but I'd honestly take Kleber over Ayton after watching this series, ESPECIALLY given the price tag associated with each.
Do they need to improve at center? Possibly, but I think going all in on a high dollar guy at that position is just too damn risky.
To me, any kind of "swing for the fence" at all, if such a move is even possible, should be a guard or a forward who offers something noticeably superior than the current guards and forwards. It's just how I see things.
(05-13-2022, 01:10 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Do they need to improve at center? Possibly, but I think going all in on a high dollar guy at that position is just too damn risky.
To me, any kind of "swing for the fence" at all, if such a move is even possible, should be a guard or a forward who offers something noticeably superior than the current guards and forwards. It's just how I see things.
I want JC first and foremost because I think he IS a forward who does LOTS of things that would improve what the Mavs currently have AND he can masquerade for long stretches as a center.
I want Gobert as a back up plan because I think he is elite enough as a center that I think he immediately improves the team's ceiling.
(05-13-2022, 01:51 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]I want Gobert as a back up plan because I think he is elite enough as a center that I think he immediately improves the team's ceiling.
I agree he'd raise the ceiling.
I agree there's a world in which he earns his money here, too, though I'm less sure about that.
The second you start thinking about 1st round picks heading to Utah for the
privilege of taking this huge risk, I think that's where I back into the hedges like Homer Simpson. Imagine sitting through the Porzingis situation only to dive head-first into something that could potentially be almost identically problematic. Sure, they're different players and it
might be a great move, but if I'm making decisions (I'm not, of course) then I think I pass, tempting as it might be.
Collins? Sure, but I don't think they have the ammo to get him.
Gobert is tempting for the regular season wins
Getting that #1 seed is huge and I think he would make that extremely likely with a some luck with health
Still a bit torn on how he would fit in the playoffs. Maybe Bullock and DFS can help cover some switching issues. It working wouldn't shock me but that contract is a huge risk for a maybe
I just want the Mavs to keep doing what they're doing. It's working! The best center left in the playoffs is probably 6' 6" (Draymond) or 6' 9" (Adebayo)
Just find a way to add another rugged wing/forward - a Bullock, DFS type - and lean into five out.
UFA Taurean Prince can guard 3, 4, 5, rebound and knock down catch & shoot threes. Keep developing Green & Ntilikina.
Don't waste assets on bigs. Just play opposing bigs off the floor!
I'm pro Turner and think he would be pretty useful but I also think this board overrates him slightly. I have the same concerns I had about Porzingis when it comes to the rebounding and injuries. I think that he wouldn't be bullied as much by the bigger offensive players in the league when compared to our front court options but those matchups are few and far between and we're having a lot of success currently with Maxi and bigger wings just flying around and playing hard against Gobert and Ayton. I also think he'd be more willing to play a role of a five out big here that Porzingis wouldn't but I'm also not 100% on that based on some of his quotes over the past couple years in regards to his role in Indy.
Don't get me wrong though, if we got him for a reasonable price I'd be stoked.
But every year I've felt stronger and stronger about the idea that center is now the least important position in the league and I don't see that changing anytime soon. Could we improve our front court? Sure. Should we spend 40 million on that improvement, absolutely not.
I honestly think we're all still ahead of ourselves. I think this team going to be looking to shed cap space this offseason to lessen our tax hit (most likely adding a second or two to Hardaway and moving him), resigning Brunson, drafting a big man (or maybe we just keep loading up on big wings *shrug*) to hopefully get some minutes behind Powell and Maxi and then making a decision about what those front court needs really are after one more playoff run with this group once we finally have a ton of flexibility in the trade market. I'm just bracing myself for this really fun playoff run ending however it ends up ending and knowing that roster improvements make way more sense to address the offseason after this upcoming one for ton of reasons. It will be painful for a lot of folks on this board but it feels inevitable to me.
Turner on the cheap is fine. We need more depth at the position. I have a hard time evaluating him. I expected him to take a leap and become a great player early in his career and that never came to fruition. He's still really good though.
(05-13-2022, 01:58 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Collins? Sure, but I don't think they have the ammo to get him.
What do you think he would cost?
(05-13-2022, 02:51 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]What do you think he would cost?
Maxi/Hardaway/2-3 FRPs (or Josh Green)