MavsBoard

(05-22-2022, 02:44 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]All Lakers need to do is to find a Westbrook into mostly cap space taker ...

Yeah those teams who have 47M of extra space are everywhere, and all are eager to have Westbrook on their roster. LMAO  And obviously CHI is going to do everything they can to help Lavine play elsewhere, and won't expect much compensation at all!

Too funny.

(05-22-2022, 02:57 AM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah those teams who have 47M of extra space are everywhere

I said mostly cap space. This doesn't mean 47 mil of space is needed. Detroit, San Antonio, OKC (before July) are all rebuilding teams and it might be smart for them to sell cap space for picks.

(05-22-2022, 02:57 AM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]and all are eager to have Westbrook on their roster.

Anyone who takes him, will also most likely buy him out...

(05-22-2022, 02:57 AM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]And obviously CHI is going to do everything they can to help Lavine play elsewhere, and won't expect much compensation at all!

LaVine is a FA. If he wants to go he wants to go, nothing Chicago can do. They can of course do him a favour to play where he wants (and receive a minor compensation for it) or they can let him walk to a cap space team. Chicago doesn't have much leverage

Toronto got Achiuwa and ate Dragic contract to allow Lowry to go where he wanted to.

(05-21-2022, 03:34 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]https://nba.nbcsports.com/2022/05/20/lav...ks-in-mix/

https://twitter.com/TheSteinLine/status/...LzuLMqAAAA




Can't agree with Stein on that one. If Lavine was jealous then he certainly hid it well. I just think the fit between Lavine and Demar has always been iffy at best, and I can see why the 26 year old wants to move on. The common thread among the team's mentioned is that none of them have a starting 2 guard. And to be honest only 3 of them have a real shot (sorry, not sorry, Lakers).

I can see Lavine´s point. He was there first, he was balling like crazy, basically the DeRozan level, but since the rest of the team was underdeveloped he did not receive any credit for his individual performance on a bad team. This year they were successful and suddenly it´s all DeRozan (and Ball) for MVP talk. The jealousy angle makes no sense though from the POV that on all the teams mentioned for FA, none would be his team either.

He´s always been the one I had my eye on, since the first rumours emerged that the Bulls are reluctant to max him out.

Though we do need to consider that he has had another smaller surgery on his ACL knee recently, so this might be nothing, but he could also be another Porzingis, where you have less information than the team that has him under contract. I think that is the real reason Lavine wants to leave. 

I´m pretty sure something like Dinwiddie (or THJ) + Powell + two future first round picks get this done, if Lavine insists on Mavs only.

We get the healthy Zach Lavine it´s over. He has shot like 40% on nine 3pt attempts last year (at I believe the 2nd highest degree of shot difficulty in the whole league). They´d be like prime LeBron + Kyrie without the crazy and Love apart the rest of the team would be much better than the Cavs team that won it all. Plus, if we get Lavine on this team, we´ll have no problem getting some ring-chasing centers. Maybe  Presti even has to add #30 pick to dump Favors. Not like they have a roster spot  available for either.

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(05-22-2022, 02:57 AM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah those teams who have 47M of extra space are everywhere, and all are eager to have Westbrook on their roster. LMAO  And obviously CHI is going to do everything they can to help Lavine play elsewhere, and won't expect much compensation at all!

Too funny.

Even if the Lakers managed to dump Westbrook into air, LeBron/Davis/THT/Nunn alone make $95M. No way can the Lakers sign him outright.

(05-22-2022, 03:17 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]1  I said mostly cap space. This doesn't mean 47 mil of space is needed. Detroit, San Antonio, OKC (before July) are all rebuilding teams and it might be smart for them to sell cap space for picks.

2  Anyone who takes him, will also most likely buy him out...

3  LaVine is a FA. If he wants to go he wants to go, nothing Chicago can do. They can of course do him a favour to play where he wants (and receive a minor compensation for it) or they can let him walk to a cap space team. Chicago doesn't have much leverage

Toronto got Achiuwa and ate Dragic contract to allow Lowry to go where he wanted to.

1 The starting problem is that it's not a 20M contract LAL would have to move, but rather RW at 47M. No one is within realistic reach of having that much room, and while LAL or someone else can finagle more room, someone has to have it to give it. You can see how limited cap room is to get max deals done this summer, as Keith Smith's projections are:

Cap Space Teams

1. Detroit Pistons - $31.4 million
   
2. Orlando Magic - $28.1 million
   
3. Indiana Pacers - $23.8 million
   
4. Portland Trail Blazers - $20.0 million
   
5. San Antonio Spurs - $17.6 million
   

Plus, even if someone has built some cap room to spend, it doesn't mean they will give it to you. They want to make their team better, not yours. That's the reality.

2. Your note that whoever would get him would waive him highlights the problem with the Lakers finding a taker for RW. If I trade for RW and "buy him out" (ie, pay him 47M to go away), how stupid is that, and what a waste of my 47M. That's nutty. And it's massive money that I'm flushing away for basically nothing. Sorry, but I just don't think it's gonna happen, because no owner is that stupid.

3 Yes, ZL can sign elsewhere. So have ZL go ahead, look at the list of who has money to spend, and how much, and let him pick a destination. (Oops, maybe CHI will look desirable after all!!) ... And re LAL in isolation, you ignore that what motivates a s-and-t is for the signing team to have a path to cap room, like MIA did with Lowry. In contrast, LAL, assuming they are keeping both LBJ and AD, has no way in the world to have max cap room for ZL, and there's really no way for them to to create it.

This idea of ZL to LAL feels like the same sort of nonsense when Trader Daryl in HOU was (reportedly, continually) on the cusp of getting Melo from NY in the same sort of deal. They only needed a 3rd team to be the one to absorb all the bad parts of the deal (in this case, you theorize DET as that sort of sucker), and lo-and-behold no one wanted to be that sucker. Go figure! IMO it would take a ginormous set of assets to entice some team to take RW into cap space, and LAL will decide they'll do better to simply keep RW until they run out the clock on his contract.

Looking at it another way, if I put on my fake GM hat, and ask what it would take for me to take RW contract from LAL into my cap space, I would want EVERY possible draft asset they have left right now, plus I send them back any trash contract I have. But I'd demand ALL their picks, plus swap options on picks they can't trade due to the rules. And then I still think it's probably too little. 47M is a huge amount of money.

(05-22-2022, 04:08 AM)Mavs2021 Wrote: [ -> ]I´m pretty sure something like Dinwiddie (or THJ) + Powell + two future first round picks get this done, if Lavine insists on Mavs only.

So, in this scenario, are you paying even more assets to remove the additional salaries needed to get under the Apron.  Or, did Brunson leave for no returning salary?

Unless the math says you're saving money or getting off bad contracts....


I'm not doing Thj plus 2 firsts for lavine.


We can argue all day about how much better lavine is than thj and the skills he brings to the table that the mavericks need offensively...


But thj is a lavine lite and cheaper....and you want to move multiple frps too?



I guess I'm a bad gm lol

And if anyone is going to respond to my post..please please please don't bring up the 40% from 3 on 9 attempts per.   Basically Bertans...and how's bertans shooting doing for you.


Im over the volume 3% stat Unless we are talking about legit killers like klay Thompson or Steph Curry.


Lavine is a good shooter no doubt...but I'm not over paying or giving up multiple frps for him when I have thj already.  A good enough shooter.


Yes...we could use lavines driving and finishing at the rim.  He has some really good offensive skills...but we already have thj.


Now if he just comes here as a free agent that's different

(05-22-2022, 09:45 AM)dynamicalVoid Wrote: [ -> ]And if anyone is going to respond to my post..please please please don't bring up the 40% from 3 on 9 attempts per.   Basically Bertans...and how's bertans shooting doing for you.


Im over the volume 3% stat Unless we are talking about legit killers like klay Thompson or Steph Curry.


Lavine is a good shooter no doubt...but I'm not over paying or giving up multiple frps for him when I have thj already.  A good enough shooter.


Yes...we could use lavines driving and finishing at the rim.  He has some really good offensive skills...but we already have thj.


Now if he just comes here as a free agent that's different

Lavine is several tiers of players better than THJ. It's just the sign-and-trade rules that make it impractical.

I always forget that they will be late frps.

I guess it's not crazy.


Still think you gotta be very frugal when considering the deal

(05-22-2022, 08:05 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]So, in this scenario, are you paying even more assets to remove the additional salaries needed to get under the Apron.  Or, did Brunson leave for no returning salary?

Not only is there no reasonable way to acquire him, I'm trying to understand why he would want to come here and we would want to pay all of the assets and cap to get him?  If he does not like the credit DeRozan is getting, I can't imagine he wants to be second fiddle to Luka?  And didn't we just dump a Robin for bad contracts at least partially due to chemistry issues?  I'm not comparing KP and Lavine on skill or fit or injury history, but I feel like the potential chemistry issues are a legit concern.

(05-22-2022, 08:05 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]So, in this scenario, are you paying even more assets to remove the additional salaries needed to get under the Apron.  Or, did Brunson leave for no returning salary?

Pay more. Whatever we need to match the starting salaries.

(05-22-2022, 09:45 AM)dynamicalVoid Wrote: [ -> ]And if anyone is going to respond to my post..please please please don't bring up the 40% from 3 on 9 attempts per.   Basically Bertans...and how's bertans shooting doing for you.


Im over the volume 3% stat Unless we are talking about legit killers like klay Thompson or Steph Curry.


Lavine is a good shooter no doubt...but I'm not over paying or giving up multiple frps for him when I have thj already.  A good enough shooter.


Yes...we could use lavines driving and finishing at the rim.  He has some really good offensive skills...but we already have thj.


Now if he just comes here as a free agent that's different

I have no idea why we are comparing Lavine with THJ or Bertans?  He is in a completely different league offensively.  If we are lamenting losing players in acquiring Lavine, the fact that we would have to let Brunson walk is a way bigger deal than giving up THJ.

(05-22-2022, 05:07 AM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]The starting problem is that it's not a 20M contract LAL would have to move, but rather RW at 47M. No one is within realistic reach of having that much room, and while LAL or someone else can finagle more room, someone has to have it to give it.

Lakers don't need 47 mil of cap room, which I tried to show in my example. They basically need roughly LaVine max salary (I think roughly 36 mil) to stay under the hard cap apron. Many ways to get there. Perhaps the Butler SnT is a very good example. Same situtation back then. Heat were right at the apron with a bunch of bad contracts. What they did was split Whiteside contract in Leonard and Harkless, than send Harkless and a pick to Clippers and traded Richardson for Butler. 

(05-22-2022, 05:07 AM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]This idea of ZL to LAL feels like the same sort of nonsense when Trader Daryl in HOU was (reportedly, continually) on the cusp of getting Melo from NY in the same sort of deal. They only needed a 3rd team to be the one to absorb all the bad parts of the deal (in this case, you theorize DET as that sort of sucker), and lo-and-behold no one wanted to be that sucker. Go figure! IMO it would take a ginormous set of assets to entice some team to take RW into cap space, and LAL will decide they'll do better to simply keep RW until they run out the clock on his contract.

I think you are way exaggerating the price of cap space. It didn't take a ginormous set of assets to do a Butler SnT. Miami had no way to get cap space to sign him outright. It also didn't take ginormous set of assets for Chicago to get Ball, even though he was RFA. Unprotected FRP is huge reward for cap space. What alternative can realistically a team like Detroit, San Antonio and OKC have? Are they a destination for top FA (which there aren't many anyway)? There are many teams each year that don't spend their cap space or just sell it for assets. Westbrook is expiring and basically allows the buyer to carry the cap space into next season, where the rebuilding team might be in a position to hunt top FA. Detroit, OKC, San Antonio are not there yet.

As for the Lakers - they have the 2027 and 2029 FRP to trade. If this is a price for LaVine, they will do it without thinking. 

Look at the OKC example, created by Hollinger several months ago. Lakers send Westbrook and unprotected first to OKC for Favors and another smaller contract (all before draft). This would create a huge TE for Lakers where they could fit LaVine. 

(05-22-2022, 05:07 AM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]In contrast, LAL, assuming they are keeping both LBJ and AD, has no way in the world to have max cap room for ZL, and there's really no way for them to to create it.

Even that is not impossible. If they trade WB to OKC, they get to roughly 110 mil of salaries. They create over 30 mil of cap space if they basically dump expiring Favors and THT (still young, not so negative value). So one FRP for Westbrook and one for dumping them. 

I am not saying any of that is easy, but it is not impossible. And I think the power of Rich Paul and LeBron shouldn't be neglected. Please note LaVine switched to Rich Paul roughly a year ago. Was it because he doubted his previous agent would be unable to get max cotnract or was it because Rich Paul promised he can make it happen for him to get where he wants?

"LAL, assuming they are keeping both LBJ and AD, has no way in the world to have max cap room for ZL, and there's really no way for them to to create it."

"Even that is not impossible."

Bullshit.

As I said and you try to disparage, LAL cannot get cap room to offer a max contract for Lavine (which would start at 36.6M), so long as they have LBJ and AD on the roster. All your this-and-that still doesn't erase the math that says FACTUALLY - if they literally cleared out the entire roster other than those two - they won't have enough cap room.


As if they could even clear out the entire roster other than those two.

The ONLY way they can offer a max deal to Lavine would require the help of CHI. But without that leverage of a competitor being able to get enough cap room, teams that want to keep their player and who are willing to pay him what he's asking don't tend to work against themselves.  (The examples of both Lowry and Butler going to MIA followed that pattern, as their prior teams had decided they had higher priorities than paying what it would take to keep their guy, so didn't care if he left.)

(05-22-2022, 02:14 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]As I said and you try to disparage, LAL cannot get cap room to offer a max contract for Lavine (which would start at 36.6M), so long as they have LBJ and AD on the roster. All your this-and-that still doesn't erase the math that says FACTUALLY - if they literally cleared out the entire roster other than those two - they won't have enough cap room.

Why do you assume LaVine would sign for max only, if LA is his prefered destination? Isn't it possible he leaves a couple of million on the table? But better yet - it is just good enough to create a threat to Chicago that LaVine can leave for nothing. Making them play along more willingly.

(05-22-2022, 02:44 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]I am not so sure about the Lakers part. LaVine is a Rich Paul guy. All Lakers need to do is to find a Westbrook into mostly cap space taker and they can pull off the SnT. Lets say roughly something like this:
Det: Westbrook, Lakers 2027 pick
LA: Olynik, LaVine
Chi: trade excemption, minor draft compensation

I'm pretty sure the Lakers also need to send out THT and Nunn as well to stay under the tax line because it's a sign and trade. This is all assuming any of those rebuilding teams want to bring in WB at 47 mil for 1 year where he actively hurts their rebuild by either winning against the tanking teams and/or taking minutes away from their young guys.

Only trade that has been realistically floated around for Westbrook is John Wall and that won't help the Lakers at all.

You also have to wonder is a roster of Lavine+Lebron+AD+9 minimum guys better than a roster of WB/Lebron/AD/THT/Nun+7 minimum guys? I don't think so. For the Lakers to invest the last of their assets for Lavine is a lateral move at best and just delays their inevitable rebuild.

Omahen, I think you're way too dismissive of ZL's desire to get paid like a star, and of LAL's likely inability to get some team to blithely waste 47M cash by swallowing RW into their cap room. Some pick 5 years from now isn't worth that. And I don't put much stock into what Lavar Ball says about league things, so there's that.

(05-22-2022, 02:19 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]Why do you assume LaVine would sign for max only, if LA is his prefered destination? Isn't it possible he leaves a couple of million on the table? But better yet - it is just good enough to create a threat to Chicago that LaVine can leave for nothing. Making them play along more willingly.

Lavine would already be leaving 40 some odd mil on the table. I don't think he'd be interested in taking an additional discount to go to a team that just missed the playoffs.

(05-22-2022, 02:29 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]Lavine would already be leaving 40 some odd mil on the table. I don't think he'd be interested in taking an additional discount to go to a team that just missed the playoffs.

Rich Paul. 

I am convinced there are additional money flows with his deals, either legal (advertising contracts) or more under the table sort. Just so many unlogical signatures when he wants to make things happen. Just two of recent examples: Monk and Nunn were likely worth more, but they signed for Lakers.

(05-22-2022, 02:28 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]LAL's likely inability to get some team to blithely waste 47M cash by swallowing RW into their cap room.

Again, it is not 47 mil they need to swallow... 

Unprotected pick is a possibility of a superstar. Who knows how good will Lakers be in 2027. By the look of it, not very good. 

Some examples of teams eating big money:

OKC got #16 pick to unload 73 mil of Kemba and Boston ate 53 mil of Horford (who turned out to be a very good player). 

Sixers paid lightly protected 2025 pick in 2019 (equals 2027 pick this year) to get rid of 70 mil of Horford contract in exchange for less than 15 mil of Green. That is 55 mil for a (lightly) protected far future pick.

The Westbrook to OKC idea is coming from expirienced writer and it doesn't even take away OKC cap room, as they don't have it next season anyway (but they have it now!).