It would be nice to find that Larry Nance type of player who was just in the wrong situation or dinged up. There are better examples and better players but those type of players are out there.
Before the playoffs, Cato did an article or chat (can't remember which). He predicted Hardaway is back next year but does not finish his contract here. I tend to agree with this. If I was a betting man (I am not and I am horrible at predictions), I would predict Maxi is not back next year. I think his contract may be attractive in trades. Maybe Maxi, pick or two and another salary gets you a competitive offer is someone wants to be here.
(05-02-2022, 01:48 PM)Chicagojk Wrote: [ -> ]It would be nice to find that Larry Nance type of player who was just in the wrong situation or dinged up. There are better examples and better players but those type of players are out there.
Before the playoffs, Cato did an article or chat (can't remember which). He predicted Hardaway is back next year but does not finish his contract here. I tend to agree with this. If I was a betting man (I am not and I am horrible at predictions), I would predict Maxi is not back next year. I think his contract may be attractive in trades. Maybe Maxi, pick or two and another salary gets you a competitive offer is someone wants to be here.
Maxi should have the most value to other teams. Lots of them could use a 3&D big plus he's expiring. If he's outgoing though, I think that means the Mavs have to get back a proven volume 3pt shooter like Turner or Wood to maintain the 5 out matchup versatility.
Mavs have to do something to address the frontcourt this offseason.
(05-02-2022, 02:24 PM)Jakeospikez Wrote: [ -> ]Maxi should have the most value to other teams. Lots of them could use a 3&D big plus he's expiring. If he's outgoing though, I think that means the Mavs have to get back a proven volume 3pt shooter like Turner or Wood to maintain the 5 out matchup versatility.
I'm not sure I would call Turner a proven volume 3 shooter. He has shot well under NBA average from 3 for the last three seasons.
Our biggest issue right now is interior defense and Maxi is our best interior defender (by a lot). If we send him out in a trade its his defense that we will most need to replace. I think if we swap wood for Maxi we would still have significant interior defensive issues.
I'm not sure what Maxi market value is other than expiring. He had his worst shooting season since his rookie year, is going to be 31 and has struggled with injuries. Personally I think he is more important to us than we could get in a trade.
not understanding the insistence with Turner... He has lost more games than KP in the last 2 years, he is not a good rebounder nor does he stand out in PnR...
(05-03-2022, 09:09 AM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not sure I would call Turner a proven volume 3 shooter. He has shot well under NBA average from 3 for the last three seasons.
Our biggest issue right now is interior defense and Maxi is our best interior defender (by a lot). If we send him out in a trade its his defense that we will most need to replace. I think if we swap wood for Maxi we would still have significant interior defensive issues.
I'm not sure what Maxi market value is other than expiring. He had his worst shooting season since his rookie year, is going to be 31 and has struggled with injuries. Personally I think he is more important to us than we could get in a trade.
I was thinking other teams would at least play a little close and try to contest to make sure Turner never gets wide open 3s, but after looking at his recent wide open 3pt% they may not.
I don't want to trade Maxi but honestly, if DFS at the 5 ends up being the best lineup, might as well just do what it takes to go get Wood. Really no mythical creature out there that is the perfect center for this team anyway. I think Wood would be fine in this Phx matchup. There's really no Shaq-like dominant bully bigs in the league anymore and they get cooked by Luka anyways if they're on the floor. I thought the defense with KP was fine and he can't even back down a guard. Wood is pretty long at least and is close to the perfect offensive center. Worse defense, better offense (even rim runs), and less than half the salary of KP.
(05-03-2022, 10:43 AM)Mikelorenzo Wrote: [ -> ]not understanding the insistence with Turner... He has lost more games than KP in the last 2 years, he is not a good rebounder nor does he stand out in PnR...
The foot is a concern. The rebounding is not great either although part of that is playing next to Sabonis. The primary appeal with Turner is that he is an elite defensive presence in the middle, has the mobility to do a lot of what Kidd likes to do, and can stretch the floor a little bit. There has also been a lot of talk of him wanting out of there. It probably does not matter as I don't think we have the package to get him, unless Rick is pining for his favorite players (THJ/Powell).
(05-03-2022, 10:58 AM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]The foot is a concern. The rebounding is not great either although part of that is playing next to Sabonis. The primary appeal with Turner is that he is an elite defensive presence in the middle, has the mobility to do a lot of what Kidd likes to do, and can stretch the floor a little bit. There has also been a lot of talk of him wanting out of there. It probably does not matter as I don't think we have the package to get him, unless Rick is pining for his favorite players (THJ/Powell).
I think if the Mavs really want Turner, they can get him. He´s an expiring contract, and just in the right leverage to skill range that he is too valuable to lose for nothing, but not valuable enough to be extraordinarly expensive or a huge priority in the free agent market. Rehab THJ´s value a bit and such a deal THJ/Powell could probably be done at the deadline.
Turner is not a no brainer either, so if the Pacers start asking for 1st round picks, the deal is dead. We just offer the full taypayer MLE to Smith and see whether his loyalty to the Pacers is big enough to forfeit $2M annually and the chance to get paid in the future by playing with the best player in the league. Obviously there is the threat of another team offering the full MLE to Smith.
It is interesting how styles make fights. At the end of the season, I thought Powell had played well enough where we could invest in a high quality 4, who could play some 5. While Powell and a cheap, young 5 could fill in for 20-25 minutes a night playing off Luka. Powell has really struggled so far in the playoffs so now I am thinking we do need another big body. Against Utah, we could work around it by going small. That will be a tough task against PHX. PHX is so tricky though. If you have a big who can't move, they will pick and role your big man off the floor. Golden State will do the same. So it is tricky the type of big man you need to look for.
Just the worst 2 possible matchups for Powell. He'd be playing quality minutes against the Warriors & Grizzlies. Fine against other playoff teams as well other than the Pelicans.
(05-03-2022, 11:19 AM)Mavs2021 Wrote: [ -> ]I think if the Mavs really want Turner, they can get him. He´s an expiring contract, and just in the right leverage to skill range that he is too valuable to lose for nothing, but not valuable enough to be extraordinarly expensive or a huge priority in the free agent market. Rehab THJ´s value a bit and such a deal THJ/Powell could probably be done at the deadline.
Turner is not a no brainer either, so if the Pacers start asking for 1st round picks, the deal is dead. We just offer the full taypayer MLE to Smith and see whether his loyalty to the Pacers is big enough to forfeit $2M annually and the chance to get paid in the future by playing with the best player in the league. Obviously there is the threat of another team offering the full MLE to Smith.
I am guessing the Mavs are going to want to address the frontcourt issue in the offseason, not wait and hope to make a deadline trade. I don't see a trade for Myles happening without sending the first and a THJ+Powell+first is probably not enough either (but I pull this trigger if it is).
(05-03-2022, 11:36 AM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I am guessing the Mavs are going to want to address the frontcourt issue in the offseason, not wait and hope to make a deadline trade. I don't see a trade for Myles happening without sending the first and a THJ+Powell+first is probably not enough either (but I pull this trigger if it is).
They can do both. There are young players like Hartenstein out there that can be had for the taxpayer MLE imho. Furthermore why not simply make the 26th pick for yourself and then you can still decide (six months down the road) whether you want to trade that pick or a future pick.
We need to make at least more sophisticated mid-term plans and not try to fix everything now, when it´s simply not there. Even getting Myles Turner immediately is not going to make us a contender. The Mavs have acted like short-term morons for far too long.
It´s absolutely stupid how this franchise wasted the Doncic/Brunson/DFS situation. They have found three NBA starters for a total salary of $15M. That means for two years they sat on hypothetical capspace of $100M. They also pissed away the #1 lottery odds in the Tatum/Ball draft. And if they tanked the Doncic draft properly they could have kept their 2019 pick and should have tanked that season, too.
(05-03-2022, 11:56 AM)Mavs2021 Wrote: [ -> ]They can do both. There are young players like Hartenstein out there that can be had for the taxpayer MLE imho. Furthermore why not simply make the 26th pick for yourself and then you can still decide (six months down the road) whether you want to trade that pick or a future pick.
We need to make at least more sophisticated mid-term plans and not try to fix everything now, when it´s simply not there. Even getting Myles Turner immediately is not going to make us a contender. The Mavs have acted like short-term morons for far too long.
It´s absolutely stupid how this franchise wasted the Doncic/Brunson/DFS situation. They have found three NBA starters for a total salary of $15M. That means for two years they sat on hypothetical capspace of $100M. They also pissed away the #1 lottery odds in the Tatum/Ball draft. And if they tanked the Doncic draft properly they could have kept their 2019 pick and should have tanked that season, too.
I seriously doubt they can get Hartenstein for the tax MLE. I am skeptical they can significantly improve the frontcourt the tax MLE or a late first (in the short term). I'm not that sure that adding a healthy Turner does not make this team a contender. But even if we are still a step away, we are giving up salary filler and a late first for an elite defensive big man that just turned 26. There are worse things we could do with that pick.
I think it's a really bad idea to wait until the trade deadline to make a deal for a big. It's not a plug and play position. They have to make reads on both offense & defense and expecting some guy to come in at the deadline and have it all figured out near the level of Powell come playoff time is not good planning. Find the guy they want at a reasonable deal in the offseason and let the coaches work with the player throughout the offseason and the entire regular season.
I think the trap a lot of us fall is thinking this team might be one player when in reality we are much further away.
-We got away with Powell in the first round but he might be unplayable. If you want to keep him beyond his contract, he needs to move into the Bobi role.
-We gave Maxi heavy minutes last night and his body typically doesn't hold up to that workload. He's a rotational bench piece but a really valuable one.
-We rolled out Bertans and both series. Utah failed to exploit it consistently and Phoenix attacked him right away. If we can't run sets to get him looks consistently, he's unplayable.
-Josh Green's progress from the regular season seems to have vanished save for one game versus Utah. He certainly doesn't seem to have taken confidence from that.
-Dinwiddie regular season versus Dinwiddie in the playoffs is concerning. He's your bench guy so that's mostly okay, I guess.
-We also gave Burke and Frank some desperation minutes.
-I'm going to withhold judgement on Jalen until the series is over. As is often with him, I have no idea what you should pay him. It's probably going to be too much and we are all going to need to be happy with that.
-My guess Luka's improved defense is going to get exposed as overstated this series.
Our rotation feels light. Maybe that gets solved with a healthy THJ, but it honestly doesn't feel like we've skipped a beat with him out of the lineup. It's very KP'ish.
And I get the idea that you need to start somewhere, but is Gobert at 38-46m per year that place to start? That type of money needs to be a Batman or a Robin and not someone you consider taking off the floor. Is Luka, Jalen, Gobert a championship core? You still need a big to that rotation for injury protection. You still need the Robin to Luka's Batman. You still need to upgrade minutes Bertans and Green are giving you.
I guess that's a long way of saying we are a good three pieces away and not a lot of ways to get there.
(05-03-2022, 01:27 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]I think the trap a lot of us fall is thinking this team might be one player when in reality we are much further away.
-We got away with Powell in the first round but he might be unplayable. If you want to keep him beyond his contract, he needs to move into the Bobi role.
-We gave Maxi heavy minutes last night and his body typically doesn't hold up to that workload. He's a rotational bench piece but a really valuable one.
-We rolled out Bertans and both series. Utah failed to exploit it consistently and Phoenix attacked him right away. If we can't run sets to get him looks consistently, he's unplayable.
-Josh Green's progress from the regular season seems to have vanished save for one game versus Utah. He certainly doesn't seem to have taken confidence from that.
-Dinwiddie regular season versus Dinwiddie in the playoffs is concerning. He's your bench guy so that's mostly okay, I guess.
-We also gave Burke and Frank some desperation minutes.
-I'm going to withhold judgement on Jalen until the series is over. As is often with him, I have no idea what you should pay him. It's probably going to be too much and we are all going to need to be happy with that.
-My guess Luka's improved defense is going to get exposed as overstated this series.
Our rotation feels light. Maybe that gets solved with a healthy THJ, but it honestly doesn't feel like we've skipped a beat with him out of the lineup. It's very KP'ish.
And I get the idea that you need to start somewhere, but is Gobert at 38-46m per year that place to start? That type of money needs to be a Batman or a Robin and not someone you consider taking off the floor. Is Luka, Jalen, Gobert a championship core? You still need a big to that rotation for injury protection. You still need the Robin to Luka's Batman. You still need to upgrade minutes Bertans and Green are giving you.
I guess that's a long way of saying we are a good three pieces away and not a lot of ways to get there.
I agree with a lot of points, but just a couple of comments.
- Maxi played a bit less than 25 minutes last night. That should not be considered as heavy workload.
- Green and Bertans are our 8th and 9th man in the rotation. They played 18 minutes combined and contributed 3 points. Phoenix 8th and 9th man (JaVale and Shamet) played 23 minutes combined and contributed 4 points.
- I don't agree you need yet another big next to Gobert and one of Maxi or Powell. Suns third big is Biyombo and he plays for vet min. He also played exactly as many minutes as Mavs third big Chriss last night
I would say the only big difference comparing to this Phoenix squad is the center position. Luka and Brunson are roughly equal to CP3 and Booker. DFS and Bullock are roughly equal to Bridges and Crowder. Bench production was roughly equal on both sides.
(05-03-2022, 02:06 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]- Maxi played a bit less than 25 minutes last night. That should not be considered as heavy workload.
Heavy minutes by Maxi's standard is what I should have said. I wish we could play him 30+ but his body just doesn't hold up. He probably has a concussion after game 1.
You'd probably give that Green/Bertans role more minutes if they could do anything that resembled being productive, but they aren't. Imagine if Green was Bane or Bey. Imagine if Bertans wasn't the folding chair that Yi Jianlian used to up his pre-draft stock.
Our productive rotation in this series is going to be: Luka, Brunson, DFS, Maxi, Dinwiddie, Bullock.
You are having to play the following to soak up minutes and hope they don't hurt you too badly: Powell, Green, Bertans
For the Utah series, move Powell to the productive rotation. You need more productive depth than 6-7 guys. I guess you could argue for THJ.
With the state of our assets and payroll, we need to get a lot better at attracting low cost/productive veterans (McGee, D12 prior to this year), fallen angels (Clarkson), undrafted talent (Miami Heat), and slow to blossom players (Payne).
(05-03-2022, 03:17 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]Heavy minutes by Maxi's standard is what I should have said. I wish we could play him 30+ but his body just doesn't hold up. He probably has a concussion after game 1.
You'd probably give that Green/Bertans role more minutes if they could do anything that resembled being productive, but they aren't. Imagine if Green was Bane or Bey. Imagine if Bertans wasn't the folding chair that Yi Jianlian used to up his pre-draft stock.
Our productive rotation in this series is going to be: Luka, Brunson, DFS, Maxi, Dinwiddie, Bullock.
You are having to play the following to soak up minutes and hope they don't hurt you too badly: Powell, Green, Bertans
For the Utah series, move Powell to the productive rotation. You need more productive depth than 6-7 guys. I guess you could argue for THJ.
With the state of our assets and payroll, we need to get a lot better at attracting low cost/productive veterans (McGee, D12 prior to this year), fallen angels (Clarkson), undrafted talent (Miami Heat), and slow to blossom players (Payne).
We have made a ton of mistakes from an FO standpoint, but it is interesting that list of guys in our rotation includes a second round pick, an undrafted guy and a random we plucked out of Germany.
Adding Gobert to that group would make a massive difference. From a playoff series standpoint that means you only need 15 from Maxi as backup center and he could help with that 10 to 15 minutes DFS or Bullock are off the court.
Green is still really young and made a huge improvement from last year to this one. If he takes another step (mostly just a willingness to take open 3s) he can be a legit rotation player. That takes a ton of pressure off Dorian and Bullock.
A lot of folks have referred to this team as Luka and the spare parts. That spare parts just took 2 out of 3 from Utah. I realize Utah is flawed, but they were still a legit playoff team. And Luka is 22. He is going to get better. He has not peaked yet.
I don't think we are 3 players away from contention. I believe a high quality starting center would put us in the conversation.
(05-03-2022, 03:56 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think we are 3 players away from contention. I believe a high quality starting center would put us in the conversation.
Not to diminish the first round win, but I think Utah is a lot more flawed than the recognizable names you see on the roster and that current construction has run its' course. An upgrade in the front court would help but if we use Gobert as an example since he's the popular point of discussion, it wouldn't change the outcome of this series. I still think there are multiple positions that need an upgrade as well as figuring out if JB is Robin or just a super 3rd option/sixth man. Maybe Robin can be the center upgrade, but there aren't a lot of those in the league.
As an aside and it's probably being trapped in the moment, but I may have come around on Ayton.