(04-22-2022, 02:24 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]About Gobert as a trade target, there are 2 ways to look at that
1 He doesn't look so interesting to Mavs and their fans now, when the Mavs exploit him in the playoffs, or
2 The Mavs are doing a great job of lowering the price (and removing the competition) to get him.
I think the Mavs offer would have to be THJ + Powell, with the expectation that you are doing the same thing for Utah that the Wiz did for Dallas in trading for KP -- you are turning one big problematic contract into 2 smaller, usable, easier-to-handle ones on players you can use. Given the massive size of the salary at the end of the deal, I'm not sure you would (or should) offer more than that.
I'd still worry about the MBT happily including a pick. I also think calling Gobert a terrible teammate is a little too strong, but he does have maturity issues and I do think he could be an overall negative on team chemistry. Hopefully Jordan outbids so that the decision is out of our hands.
Utah's in a weird place with this one too. Mitchell is obviously the guy you'd want to hang onto but I think Gobert is far more likely to be loyal to the organization.
(04-22-2022, 02:47 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]I'd still worry about the MBT happily including a pick.
That was certainly the habit in prior years, to pass out picks (and cash) like candy. I would hope Nico would do his best to keep the pick. Green's emergence (and Brunson's too) under Kidd should be changing the perceptions in the front office about picks. Also, the massive Gobert contract should have great bearing on who should get a pick (picks offer the potential addition of reduced salary talent) and what sort of pick it is.
(04-22-2022, 02:49 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]Then Spotrac is wrong.
The last time there was a discussion about TE, the date was one year since the trade, which was July 31st last year. You argued this exact stance. That is why I asked if June 27th is a new information.
(04-22-2022, 02:58 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]That was certainly the habit in prior years, to pass out picks (and cash) like candy. I would hope Nico would do his best to keep the pick. Green's emergence (and Brunson's too) under Kidd should be changing the perceptions in the front office about picks. Also, the massive Gobert contract should have great bearing on who should get a pick (picks offer the potential addition of reduced salary talent) and what sort of pick it is.
We included a pick in the KP trade, albeit a SRP, but we just can't say it was prior to Nico.
(04-22-2022, 03:57 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]We included a pick in the KP trade, albeit a SRP, but we just can't say it was prior to Nico.
Was that just "handed out" though?
Who won that trade? Seems like the whole pick thing was a big reason why so many folks were irate over the trade, along with Din and DB being unusable players with worse contracts than KP. Well, I think we were wrong about "unusable" and "worse contracts" than KP. And if it took a second to get that trade done, I sure am glad we did it.
Would you rather take KP and the second back at this point?
(04-22-2022, 04:03 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]Was that just "handed out" though?
Who won that trade? Seems like the whole pick thing was a big reason why so many folks were irate over the trade, along with Din and DB being unusable players with worse contracts than KP. Well, I think we were wrong about "unusable" and "worse contracts" than KP. And if it took a second to get that trade done, I sure am glad we did it.
Would you rather take KP and the second back at this point?
I for one was quite mad about the 2nd round pick, and also didn’t think we’d gotten a ton of on court value, but I’m happy to eat my crow with how things have gone
(04-22-2022, 04:03 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]Was that just "handed out" though?
Who won that trade? Seems like the whole pick thing was a big reason why so many folks were irate over the trade, along with Din and DB being unusable players with worse contracts than KP. Well, I think we were wrong about "unusable" and "worse contracts" than KP. And if it took a second to get that trade done, I sure am glad we did it.
Would you rather take KP and the second back at this point?
I'd say so. It shouldn't have been included. DB's contract is really, really bad. The "who won the trade" and "rather have" questions are kind of pointless. Mavs have never valued picks and they've done nothing to disprove that trend.
(04-22-2022, 04:16 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]I'd say so. It shouldn't have been included. DB's contract is really, really bad. The "who won the trade" and "rather have" questions are kind of pointless. Mavs have never valued picks and they've done nothing to disprove that trend.
I'll agree with you regarding the previous operating procedures
I don't think we know what this regime does with picks
(04-22-2022, 04:21 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]I'll agree with you regarding the previous operating procedures
I don't think we know what this regime does with picks
I'm not sure we'll really know for a few more years. While I'm hopeful for a good pick this year, roster space is kind of limited.
I so think we've seen some positive things with Nico and Kidd and I am hopeful they will be a better recruiting force than Donnie and Rick.
At any rate, I'll be really disappointed if we land Rudy. He just makes way too much damned money. And while I think he's offensive game would improve alongside Luka, I just wonder if we are trying to recreate our Tyson Chandler teams.
In general i agree that the Mavs should value picks more, but the jury is still out on the new regime.
In the specific case of this year's 2nd going to Washington i don't really care. It ended up as pick 56 (could have been a bit higher, but 50+ in any case). With a full roster of players we mostly like, 14 players under contract for next year (+hopefully Brunson as #15), a first round pick at hand and some decent undrafted talent in the pipeline (Pinson, and i still want to give Omoruji a chance), maybe they just did not want to make the pick.
As the team gets better, the picks obviously get worse. As the team gets better, it gains gravity with vet min candidates and buyouts, making available roster spots (if any) even more valuable. I have no problem with trading away picks.
(04-22-2022, 03:55 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]The last time there was a discussion about TE, the date was one year since the trade, which was July 31st last year. You argued this exact stance. That is why I asked if June 27th is a new information.
June 27 is the answer.
To my recollection, in prior discussions I did not argue any date in particular, but hoped we would have until late July. Yes I have assumed all along that one NBA year, rather than 365 calendar days, would be most likely, in accordance with the way they skewed the NBA calendar for the covid stuff. Unfortunately for the Mavs, my thinking was on track.
Coon's FAQ unravels the CBA rules. But these are negotiated exceptions to the CBA rules, and therefore to the FAQ, due to the circumstances. As I noted previously, in light of the covid alteration to the past NBA schedule, the NBA and NBPA jointly agreed to alter some dates and deadlines to be consistent to the spirit of the rules, rather than blindly adhere to the letter of the CBA. This has been happening all along and we have seen it many times before, over the past two years, not just regarding the playing schedule but also in relation to dates and deadlines.
However they did not publicly announce WHICH rules, nor give a public list of new dates, so we have been left to find them bit by bit. As it turns out, TPE expiration dates are one of those changes. In general, since the NBA season started later than usual last summer, they are being set to run one NBA year, not one calendar year.
TLDR version: June 27 is when the Mavs TPE will expire.
(04-22-2022, 04:21 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]I'll agree with you regarding the previous operating procedures
I don't think we know what this regime does with picks
I see a lot of comments regarding old regime vs new regime. I think it is fairly well established that Cuban was effectively the GM and Donnie was basically a glorified scout with a good eye for European talent (Dirk, Giannis, Luka). I know there has been lip service to Nico being the GM, but there is very little evidence to suggest that so far. Based on what I see, Nico was brought in to bring organization and attract free agents (something he completely failed at in his first year). Here is what I see:
1. If Cuban really wanted somebody to completely take over GM duties, it makes no sense to hire somebody with zero NBA front office experience. This screams more than anything to me that Cuban intends to keep a very heavy hand in doings, and is not ready to hand of the reigns to an experienced executive who will want to do things their way.
2. Last offseason was a typical Cuban offseason. Go after a high dollar big name veteran player and miss, tell everyone you biggest need (secondary playmaker with size) and do nothing to fill it, completely fail your last chance in the foreseeable future to use cap space, and acquire a trade exception that you will never use. It was textbook.
3. That trade has Cubans handprint all over it as well. To begin with, there is no chance it happens without his sign-off. Tossing away a second in that trade is a typical Cuban move. Regardless of the fact that the trade worked out well for the Mavs, there is a reason just about every pundit panned the Mavs for it. And although we finally address the need for another playmaker, we left a gaping hole in the frontcourt that we did not address.
I will believe there is a significant change in the way this FO operates when I see it. Until then, I am expecting status quo.
(04-23-2022, 01:07 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I see a lot of comments regarding old regime vs new regime. I think it is fairly well established that Cuban was effectively the GM and Donnie was basically a glorified scout with a good eye for European talent (Dirk, Giannis, Luka). I know there has been lip service to Nico being the GM, but there is very little evidence to suggest that so far. Based on what I see, Nico was brought in to bring organization and attract free agents (something he completely failed at in his first year). Here is what I see:
1. If Cuban really wanted somebody to completely take over GM duties, it makes no sense to hire somebody with zero NBA front office experience. This screams more than anything to me that Cuban intends to keep a very heavy hand in doings, and is not ready to hand of the reigns to an experienced executive who will want to do things their way.
2. Last offseason was a typical Cuban offseason. Go after a high dollar big name veteran player and miss, tell everyone you biggest need (secondary playmaker with size) and do nothing to fill it, completely fail your last chance in the foreseeable future to use cap space, and acquire a trade exception that you will never use. It was textbook.
3. That trade has Cubans handprint all over it as well. To begin with, there is no chance it happens without his sign-off. Tossing away a second in that trade is a typical Cuban move. Regardless of the fact that the trade worked out well for the Mavs, there is a reason just about every pundit panned the Mavs for it. And although we finally address the need for another playmaker, we left a gaping hole in the frontcourt that we did not address.
I will believe there is a significant change in the way this FO operates when I see it. Until then, I am expecting status quo.
Bullock was one of the best FA signings of the entire offseason. Leading the NBA in playoff minutes for a contender
1. Nico was brought in for his relationships. This is Cubans biggest weakness. Time will tell how much impact this has. So far, players from other teams heap praise on him. He has players like Dinwiddie giving him a shout out on court after buzzer beaters
2. We were hamstrung by the KP albatross last offseason
3. A 2nd we don’t even have a roster spot for? The pundits/masses/fans are proven wrong time after time. What they think or what is consensus doesn’t matter at all……..what hole in the frontcourt? Looks like we are going along contending just fine as it is. The frontcourt player we are missing is a regular season player. Not needed at the moment just like frontcourt darling Gobert wasn’t needed for the Jazz 2nd half of game 3
(04-23-2022, 01:32 PM)Jason Terry Wrote: [ -> ]Bullock was one of the best FA signings of the entire offseason. Leading the NBA in playoff minutes for a contender
1. Nico was brought in for his relationships. This is Cubans biggest weakness. Time will tell how much impact this has. So far, players from other teams heap praise on him. He has players like Dinwiddie giving him a shout out on court after buzzer beaters
2. We were hamstrung by the KP albatross last offseason
3. A 2nd we don’t even have a roster spot for? The pundits/masses/fans are proven wrong time after time. What they think or what is consensus doesn’t matter at all……..what hole in the frontcourt? Looks like we are going along contending just fine as it is. The frontcourt player we are missing is a regular season player. Not needed at the moment just like frontcourt darling Gobert wasn’t needed for the Jazz 2nd half of game 3
I feel like that is way over assessing Bullock value/signing. He is a little better than average defender whos only contribution on offense is moderate volume 3s that he hits at roughly league average. He is not worth more than the MLE we paid for him. He is getting crazy minutes because Luka and THJ are out and up until this last game Green has been useless. We are thin right now.
I agree Nico was brought in for relationships. I would argue he failed to provide value in that area last offseason. Bullock is not a signing you need relationships for. Not sure when he will be able to exercise that talent as we wont have cap for a while. Otherwise, being a relationship guy does really suggest he is going to change FO method of operation much.
How were we hamstrung by KP? We had 34 mil in cap space even with KP. I would also argue that we could have gotten a similar return for him in the offseason than we did at the TDL, and should have pulled the trigger then.
Saying we don't have room for that 2nd so might as well dump it in a trade is not a good way to operate an organization in my opinion.
We almost blew that game in the third quarter when we played a frontcourt of DFS/Bertans. We are thin in that area, and taking two games from a dysfunctional Jazz team (even without Luka) is not enough for me to feel differently.
(04-23-2022, 01:07 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]. . . Nico was brought in to bring organization and attract free agents (something he completely failed at in his first year). . . .
You mean his first couple of weeks, right?
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