Yeah, before the Luka/Brunson draft the last major contributor was arguably Josh Howard in 2003. If Nico can simply get the draft process back up to normal professional standards, that would be a massive step towards improving the team long-term.
How does the TPE work? I think the Mavs need that 5th scorer. Someone that can avg in double digits. Last year it was JRich (sorry for bring his name up). Is there someone out there that we can get w/the TPE that would fill that role?
Can you do a 2 for 1 trade where the 2nd player comes back in the TPE?
(12-02-2021, 01:11 PM)Tyler Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, before the Luka/Brunson draft the last major contributor was arguably Josh Howard in 2003. If Nico can simply get the draft process back up to normal professional standards, that would be a massive step towards improving the team long-term.
I'd mix in Devin Harris (2005?) but yeah, the overall point is that it has been a basically unused means of roster building around here for far too long and I agree.
(12-02-2021, 04:41 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I'd mix in Devin Harris (2005?) but yeah, the overall point is that it has been a basically unused means of roster building around here for far too long and I agree.
What's crazier is that they traded for Harris. They have proven time and time again to know who is worth trading up for (even whiffing on Haliburton is an example) but don't seem to understand how to properly evaluate the picks past the lottery.
(12-02-2021, 04:52 PM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: [ -> ]What's crazier is that they traded for Harris. They have proven time and time again to know who is worth trading up for (even whiffing on Haliburton is an example) but don't seem to understand how to properly evaluate the picks past the lottery.
That's a great point, although I'd submit that it's likely that most teams' evaluation skills drop off significantly after the lottery.
(12-02-2021, 04:58 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]That's a great point, although I'd submit that it's likely that most teams' evaluation skills drop off significantly after the lottery.
That's a fair point. The Spurs are really the only example of a team that has consistently hit later in the draft over the past couple decades.
(12-02-2021, 05:04 PM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: [ -> ]That's a fair point. The Spurs are really the only example of a team that has consistently hit later in the draft over the past couple decades.
Yeah man, I heard an hour long interview with the Denver GM the summer before last, and the main point was (paraphrasing) "nobody is
good at drafting. You just make educated guesses and hope for the best."
If that's the attitude of the guy who has built a borderline contender almost exclusively through the draft, then I think our expectations for Mark Cuban and Donnie Nelson (lol) might have been just a tad high. I think the more legitimate complaint is that they flat out just stopped even trying to make picks, at some point. That's philosophical, imo, and should probably be almost singularly pinned on Cuban.
Maybe Harrison will help steer the franchise away from that type of thinking, but unfortunately we're kind of to a point right now where those low first rounders and second rounders will be harder to work into the mix, anyway. The time to value the draft more, imho, was the time between about 2012-2020. Can't get another chance at that period.
(12-02-2021, 04:52 PM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: [ -> ]What's crazier is that they traded for Harris. They have proven time and time again to know who is worth trading up for (even whiffing on Haliburton is an example) but don't seem to understand how to properly evaluate the picks past the lottery.
I would add Harris was a very solid player and I don't believe the Mavs gave up a lot to move up for him. But a strong argument can be made they passed on a better player: Andre Igoudola.
(12-02-2021, 05:12 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah man, I heard an hour long interview with the Denver GM the summer before last, and the main point was (paraphrasing) "nobody is good at drafting. You just make educated guesses and hope for the best."
If that's the attitude of the guy who has built a borderline contender almost exclusively through the draft, then I think our expectations for Mark Cuban and Donnie Nelson (lol) might have been just a tad high. I think the more legitimate complaint is that they flat out just stopped even trying to make picks, at some point. That's philosophical, imo, and should probably be almost singularly pinned on Cuban.
Maybe Harrison will help steer the franchise away from that type of thinking, but unfortunately we're kind of to a point right now where those low first rounders and second rounders will be harder to work into the mix, anyway. The time to value the draft more, imho, was the time between about 2012-2020. Can't get another chance at that period.
You make some good points.
How much was Carlisle affecting the draft importance? I am under the impression that he really, really did not want to play rookies or early-career players (Luka excepting). If the coach is philosophically against them, the why should the rest of the organization even bother with putting much thought or energy into getting the pick right?
(12-02-2021, 05:43 PM)michaeltex Wrote: [ -> ]How much was Carlisle affecting the draft importance? I am under the impression that he really, really did not want to play rookies or early-career players (Luka excepting). If the coach is philosophically against them, the why should the rest of the organization even bother with putting much thought or energy into getting the pick right?
Well, there's little to no doubt Carlisle was involved in the forming of this philosophy to some extent. And, I don't think any established coach is ever thrilled about playing an 18-21 year old they don't believe is ready for the challenge.
But, if your point is that the entire organization felt powerless to value the draft because they couldn't convince the coach to follow through with their plan, then that's something I'd have a hard time buying. If Cuban/Nelson felt it was time to force a youth movement at any point, philosophically, and felt Carlisle was working against that, he'd have been fired. I have no doubt about that.
A more likely scenario, in my opinion, is that the trio agreed that the best approach is
always to try to win, to shoot for the playoffs, and that they agreed in general that building through the draft was contrary to that aim in the short term, at least in their collective view of the Mavs' specific circumstances each year. Whether we agree with this thinking or not, it's something I can understand.
In addition to Luka, he was all-in on DSJ, too. I think that's a sign of organizational strategy and alignment, for what it's worth.
Carlisle hated DFS when he was a rookie..
(12-02-2021, 05:56 PM)ClutchDirk Wrote: [ -> ]Carlisle hated DFS when he was a rookie..
See, I think DFS is a great example of "developing" a player the right way.
Whatever approach was taken with DFS when he was a rookie seems to have worked out great, especially considering he wasn't even far enough along at the time to get drafted.
By any measure, DFS's career has been a smashing success. Even those who dislike him so much they want him off of the team will surely agree that he's going to get another multi-year contract from
someone this summer, right? That's so against the odds for an undrafted player it's ridiculous.
(12-02-2021, 05:59 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Whatever approach was taken with DFS when he was a rookie seems to have worked out great, especially considering he wasn't even far enough along at the time to get drafted.
DFS was lucky as he came to Mavs in tanking years where he was given plenty of opportunity to develop. I don't think there would be any chance DFS would see floor if he came to Dallas last season. Which I think is wrong and which is a point I am trying to make for Green (or Moses, or Omoruyi,...). I think a team should always have at least two youngsters with upside on developmental minutes. If not everygame, at least against a team like NO, for example. Garbage time with one team 30 points ahead doesn't really count.
(12-02-2021, 06:46 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]DFS was lucky as he came to Mavs in tanking years where he was given plenty of opportunity to develop. I don't think there would be any chance DFS would see floor if he came to Dallas last season. Which I think is wrong and which is a point I am trying to make for Green (or Moses, or Omoruyi,...). I think a team should always have at least two youngsters with upside on developmental minutes. If not everygame, at least against a team like NO, for example. Garbage time with one team 30 points ahead doesn't really count.
Well, I definitely agree that there was an element of "right place, right time" with his development.
But, I also think it's likely that he approached his job in such a way that helped him succeed. I don't disagree with your overall point.
(12-02-2021, 05:59 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Even those who dislike him so much they want him off of the team will surely agree that he's going to get another multi-year contract from someone this summer, right?
Anyone who wants him off the team or calls him overrated lacks any form of perspective. The dude works his ass off, is a versatile defender, is a good teammate and makes peanuts. He might not be a starter on other teams, though I'd argue his performance last year is easily starter material. Does he have flaws? Of course. He makes 4M a year and gives you 30 minutes a night. It's not his fault that the organization is too incompetent to find an upgrade for him and relegate him to a bench role.
And yes I know I lay it on thick with the DFS love around here. But of all the problems on the team, he and Maxi are at the bottom of the list.
(12-02-2021, 06:57 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]or calls him overrated lacks any form of perspective.
I call him overrated by the KL crew that toots his horn any and every time they can, I get that it's sometimes to lay it on thicker than it is. KL and I had this discussion though, the conclusion is he is overrated and underrated based on the persons talking about him.
(12-02-2021, 08:57 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]I call him overrated by the KL crew that toots his horn any and every time they can, I get that it's sometimes to lay it on thicker than it is. KL and I had this discussion though, the conclusion is he is overrated and underrated based on the persons talking about him.
I just don't see any way to measure him as overrated. 30 minutes a night at 4M. He's got to be on one of the best contracts in the league relative to what he contributes. I also understand his limitations but why begrudge anyone of being a fan of him. An underdog who we watched grow before our eyes, who maximized his gifts and even though he makes next to nothing by NBA standards, gives back to the community he grew up in. I'm biased obviously, he's my favorite player on the team but the rational side in all of us should have some perspective.
(12-02-2021, 06:46 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]DFS was lucky as he came to Mavs in tanking years where he was given plenty of opportunity to develop. I don't think there would be any chance DFS would see floor if he came to Dallas last season. Which I think is wrong and which is a point I am trying to make for Green (or Moses, or Omoruyi,...). I think a team should always have at least two youngsters with upside on developmental minutes. If not everygame, at least against a team like NO, for example. Garbage time with one team 30 points ahead doesn't really count.
I am with you on Josh Green.
I think he can help us win games with his energy which we lack at times. I posted on here a few days ago how close he is to Gary Payton Jr. in defensive energy and effort.
I would be much more willing to part ways with Moses Brown than I would Green. I think Josh Green is close to figuring it out and when the light come on you have a guy that has all defensive NBA ability IMO.
He is a high value asset in my book.
(12-02-2021, 05:59 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Even those who dislike him so much they want him off of the team
I don't think there is a single person here that dislikes DFS so much that they want him to be off the team