MavsBoard

(02-14-2022, 02:53 PM)jdb152 Wrote: [ -> ]I know there will be fierce competition from MIL, MIA & LAL but we need to be in there. Period.

I want to understand this take, and not straw man it, so let me ask some questions. 

1) Do you believe there's an everyday role for Dragic here, even in a playoff rotation? 

2) If so, who from among Luka, Brunson, Dinwiddie, Bullock, DFS, Powell, Kleber, Green, Bertans will not play? 

3) When brining in Dragic, do you believe the role you have in mind for him is worth giving up on Ntilikina and all ties to future develop of him? Is this because you view Dragic as piece for beyond this season?

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(02-14-2022, 02:55 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]If an NBA player 1) knows what he is supposed to do on D, 2) does it quickly, and 3) never gives up on a play? That guy is going to be "fine" on the defensive end. And the numbers bear that out for DB in his career.

Totally agree with this. 

Not convinced Bertans qualifies yet, but I agree that if he fits all the criteria above he can be in an NBA rotation.

(02-14-2022, 02:59 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I want to understand this take, and not straw man it, so let me ask some questions. 

1) Do you believe there's an everyday role for Dragic here, even in a playoff rotation? 

2) If so, who from among Luka, Brunson, Dinwiddie, Bullock, DFS, Powell, Kleber, Green, Bertans will not play? 

3) When brining in Dragic, do you believe the role you have in mind for him is worth giving up on Ntilikina and all ties to future develop of him? Is this because you view Dragic as piece for beyond this season?

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Totally agree with this. 

Not convinced Bertans qualifies yet, but I agree that if he fits all the criteria above he can be in an NBA rotation.

Of those names, Green would sadly be the odd man out. I think it would be incredibly short-sided and yet another step backwards to sign Dragic and stunt the development of Green.

(02-14-2022, 02:52 PM)soog Wrote: [ -> ]The two biggest desires I have for any defender is good lateral quickness and a large wingspan.

I have great awareness and knowledge of schemes and give lots of effort - you don’t want me out there trying to guard anyone in the nba.

With that logic all great athlets should be good defenders but they aren´t. Mavs best example is THJ. Good athlet. Can move his feet but destroys the entire scheme because he is a bad team defender.
I think the 2nd part is a joke but a lot of people are underrating the mental/smarts aspects of the game. We rarely talk about it but over the season players spend hours (more likely days) in film study sessions. Learning tendencies or memorizing opposing set plays. And just like in any other sport the best of the best go the extra mile.
I think Shane Battier was famous for his insane preparation and it turned him into one of the best wing defenders of his generation.

(02-14-2022, 03:03 PM)Smitty Wrote: [ -> ]Of those names, Green would sadly be the odd man out.

So let's follow that thread. 

Currently, Bullock and Green are playing a ton of minutes at the 3, while DFS plays most at the 4. This is not ideal, imo, but it's what they've been doing lately, and with the roster in its current form, this would seem to be the plan for the remainder of the season. Dinwiddie means less time for Bullock/Green at the 2, not more. Those two at the 3 means less time for DFS there, not more. The hope (I guess) is that Bertans can play enough to push everyone back to where they're ideal a bit more than recent games when KP has been out. 

If you replace Green with Dragic (a HUGE step up in experience, I agree), where does that leave the situation above? I'd say even less time for DFS at the 3, WAY less (basically none) time for Bullock at the 2, and probably some time for Dinwiddie at the 3. Is that how you see it, too? 

I don't see that as a viable plan. Maybe in extreme small ball situations it would be cool to have FOUR ball-handlers on the floor, but I think the chemistry will already be strained working Dinwiddie in, personally.

(02-14-2022, 03:11 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]So let's follow that thread. 

Currently, Bullock and Green are playing a ton of minutes at the 3, while DFS plays most at the 4. This is not ideal, imo, but it's what they've been doing lately, and with the roster in its current form, this would seem to be the plan for the remainder of the season. Dinwiddie means less time for Bullock/Green at the 2, not more. Those two at the 3 means less time for DFS there, not more. The hope (I guess) is that Bertans can play enough to push everyone back to where they're ideal a bit more than recent games when KP has been out. 

If you replace Green with Dragic (a HUGE step up in experience, I agree), where does that leave the situation above? I'd say even less time for DFS at the 3, WAY less (basically none) time for Bullock at the 2, and probably some time for Dinwiddie at the 3. Is that how you see it, too? 

I don't see that as a viable plan. Maybe in extreme small ball situations it would be cool to have FOUR ball-handlers on the floor, but I think the chemistry will already be strained working Dinwiddie in, personally.

I see no path for Dragic to be in the rotation, short of Spencer being out for the season. Especially when the rotation shrinks to 8-man in the playoffs. I think there is zero reason to add Dragic or even another BIG for this season. Draft night and off-season is another story.

(02-14-2022, 02:40 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]It soooo was. In a variety of ways. 

Again, two separate conversations for me. 

I am happy KP is gone. NOTHING the new guys do/don't do will change that. For that matter, neither will anything KP does in Washington.

I am hoping the new guys can be closer to the rosier predictions than the pessimistic ones. I can see validity in both sets of predications. I am probably somewhere in between. 

KP is gone!!!! We should all be meeting up to party. Instead, we're wasting this brief period of relief from regret to prematurely complain about how bad the new guys are (there will be plenty of time for that later) and dwell on where the team is now, relative to when Luka was drafted (that IS a depressing topic). 

But KP is gone!!!!!!! Things are possible again.

I'm curious what things are possible again?  We have literally no assets as most of our contracts are neutral or negative.  We will be in cap hell and supposedly lux tax hell (although one of my many concerns with this trade is that Dinwiddie make it more likely for Brunson to bolt and Cuban to let him go).  It will be a couple of years before we can do anything.

It would be one thing if we traded KP contract for air and started over (although it would not have cleared much cap space).  But we traded it for two more terrible contracts, and guys that have just as much availability and fit concerns as KP did.  We all envisioned a lot of potential KP trades, and none of them were nearly as bad as what it turned out to be.  

This is not a time to celebrate.  It is a time for morning.  The KP experiment failed miserably, and the new experiment has way less hope for success.

(02-14-2022, 02:59 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I want to understand this take, and not straw man it, so let me ask some questions. 

1) Do you believe there's an everyday role for Dragic here, even in a playoff rotation? 

2) If so, who from among Luka, Brunson, Dinwiddie, Bullock, DFS, Powell, Kleber, Green, Bertans will not play? 

3) When brining in Dragic, do you believe the role you have in mind for him is worth giving up on Ntilikina and all ties to future develop of him? Is this because you view Dragic as piece for beyond this season?

[quote pid="127472" dateline="1644868786"]
Thanks for taking the time. I'll try and paint you a picture of what I'm seeing.

1) Yes, I do believe we have a role for him now and in the playoffs. What's important to remember is that GD is now 35 & hasn't played, essentially, this season. That said, he's not two years removed from being a 20/4/5 guy in the playoffs for MIA. There is absolutely 15, key minutes a night for him here.
2) Having him here, in general, will allow for us to finish the regular season without having to gas Luka/JB for 40 minutes/night. With him and SD both, those guys could get some rest down the stretch. It also is huge insurance should we have an injury & I'm not only referring to Luka/JB. There is a real chance we have to get super creative with our rotations, given the injury histories of DP & Maxi. If either of those guys goes down, we're going small ball. His presence would allow for that in ways Burke/Frankie don't allow for.
3) In the playoffs, my concern with the players you list is primarily rooted in the facts that a), we haven't seen Brunson shine in the post season, & b), I have my doubts as to whether or not Green is ready for 12-15 minutes/game. I love what I am seeing but I think all of his progress is more of a springboard into his third season than a significant role in the playoffs this year. Until JB shows us this is who he is in the playoffs & Green is a little more seasoned, there is reason to have pause. I expect SD to thrive as a 6th man and continue to get stronger but, again, he has an injury history and is still working back from an ACL. Having a proven veteran to ease a couple of minutes isn't the worst thing in the world.
4) Frankie could stay, if you part with Burke. There is potential there. I agree but, for all the hand wringing about winning/advancing in the playoffs to keep Luka happy, I have to ask this. Why do I care about the status of a developmental guard that most of the league had little interest in? Dragic contributes to winning now and does not compromise you, in anyway, moving forward. 
5) Given his age, I wouldn't project more than a season at a time. Best guess? Most likely a one year piece but one that helps for that one year. I think Green continues to grow. I think there are ways to keep Frankie. If one, or both, of those is true I think DAL is in a better place next season and, perhaps, has no role for GD.

DAL, for the rest of this season, is going to be a Frankenstein, of sorts. I'm ok with that. The roster work will continue in the summer. That said, they're also a good squad capable of winning a playoff series, maybe two, if they're filled out with real options. Let's position ourselves as best as possible.
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(02-14-2022, 02:36 PM)soog Wrote: [ -> ]We’re sitting here talking about a guy racking up “DNP - coaches decision” like he’s going to step in and immediately take all of KPs minutes and solve some major problem the Mavs have.

Very much a strawman argument. Absolutely no one has argued he will be getting starter's ("all of KP's") minutes. The 'best-case scenario' argument is that he will get bench contributor's minutes during which he will provide truly elite shooting while not being a significant defensive liability. 'Worst-case' scenario is that he's lost his shooting touch and is a massive liability on defense in which case he will end up getting no minutes.

(02-14-2022, 03:03 PM)Smitty Wrote: [ -> ]Of those names, Green would sadly be the odd man out. I think it would be incredibly short-sided and yet another step backwards to sign Dragic and stunt the development of Green.

You don't develop players in the playoffs, though. They should continue to use him in the regular season, when it makes sense. His growth this season is about taking a huge leap into Year 3. He isn't anywhere near ready for 10-15 minutes/night in a playoff series.

(02-14-2022, 03:23 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I'm curious what things are possible again?  We have literally no assets as most of our contracts are neutral or negative

Not sure I agree. 

I think Bertans is negative, for sure. THJ's and Dinwiddie's are probably slightly negative right now, due to injury and recovering from injury status. 

I think everyone on this roster with the exception of Bertans is very movable this summer. Very. In time, maybe Bertans might be, too. 

Plus, there will be no more wasting everyone's time and effort getting KP the ball in "his spots." What's possible on court is even more development from the guys who were already here, most notably Luka/Brunson. I honestly believe having KP out there getting those touches had a negative impact on Luka's season.

(02-14-2022, 03:28 PM)Arioch Wrote: [ -> ]Very much a strawman argument. Absolutely no one has argued he will be getting starter's ("all of KP's") minutes. The 'best-case scenario' argument is that he will get bench contributor's minutes during which he will provide truly elite shooting while not being a significant defensive liability. 'Worst-case' scenario is that he's lost his shooting touch and is a massive liability on defense in which case he will end up getting no minutes.

I mean, you’re not wrong, although there is 1 guy saying he will/should/whatever the right word is get 27 mpg. Pretty close to all of KP’s minutes.

(02-14-2022, 03:28 PM)jdb152 Wrote: [ -> ]You don't develop players in the playoffs, though. They should continue to use him in the regular season, when it makes sense. His growth this season is about taking a huge leap into Year 3. He isn't anywhere near ready for 10-15 minutes/night in a playoff series.

I agree, i think Green is the odd man out in the 8-man playoff rotation. But his minutes in the regular season shouldn't be taken by a 35 year old Dragic who also won't be in the 8 man playoff rotation imo.

Playoffs guard rotation will be Luka 42 min / JB 36 min / Dinwiddie 18 min. There aren't more than 96 minutes to go around for Dragic (or Green). Minutes aren't exact, but the point is the same.

(02-14-2022, 03:10 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]With that logic all great athlets should be good defenders but they aren´t. Mavs best example is THJ. Good athlet. Can move his feet but destroys the entire scheme because he is a bad team defender.
I think the 2nd part is a joke but a lot of people are underrating the mental/smarts aspects of the game. We rarely talk about it but over the season players spend hours (more likely days) in film study sessions. Learning tendencies or memorizing opposing set plays. And just like in any other sport the best of the best go the extra mile.
I think Shane Battier was famous for his insane preparation and it turned him into one of the best wing defenders of his generation.

Is this accurate re 2021-22 THJ? I know he lost his shooting touch, but his defensive numbers on a decent defensive team looked pretty ok, no? I just looked up DBPM and DWS. I had the impression Kidd was fixing THJ’s defense like he has for most of our roster. You think not?

Bucks need Dragic right now.  Will make for an interesting Heat/Bucks series if they meet.

Not sure why we are wasting time on DB’s defense or whether Dimwiddie will be a good fit in the locker room or not. 

The trade was not based on anything positive the Mavs mgmt saw with those two as much as it was about their desperation to get rid of KP that they took the first deal where someone was offering them something. 

Should they have done that or asked more are different questions.  However in terms of players themselves it doesn’t look like they had much choice. Tor backed out due to KP injury concerns and the Mavs quickly pivoted to the remaining offer. Anything positive either of those two might give is just a bonus.  

If folks take Killer’s stance that he is not concerned about the returns as much as about getting rid of KP, then we can move on.

(02-14-2022, 03:23 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]This is not a time to celebrate.  It is a time for morning.  The KP experiment failed miserably, and the new experiment has way less hope for success.

I've said this a few times, but I mourned this over a year ago. I (thought I) knew then that it would end with something like this. Anyone here will tell you I've been claiming the Mavs wouldn't get much, if anything in return for KP so this "rehab his value" stuff was just wheel spinning. Ironically, I might've been wrong. The value rehabbing might've been necessary just to get someone to agree to take the guy, setting the return aside completely. 

I have been mourning for over a year. There have been times during that stretch when I thought I could see hope, but that was foolish. KP was a mistake. We all know it. 

I'm celebrating (juuuust a little) today because I truly believe that the bad situation the Mavericks are in right now (it's pretty bad) can be more easily (and quickly) improved upon in the future than the one they were in before the trade. This has nothing to do with the new players, or their potential on-court contributions. I am fully expecting to be disappointed by that part. I am PREPARED.

(02-14-2022, 03:28 PM)Arioch Wrote: [ -> ]Very much a strawman argument. Absolutely no one has argued he will be getting starter's ("all of KP's") minutes. The 'best-case scenario' argument is that he will get bench contributor's minutes during which he will provide truly elite shooting while not being a significant defensive liability. 'Worst-case' scenario is that he's lost his shooting touch and is a massive liability on defense in which case he will end up getting no minutes.

Not strawman at all; that is exactly what people are arguing.  Earlier in this thread people were saying Berty would be get 22min to 26min per game.  KP was getting 25min per game over the last stretch of games. I know my Pre-K math is a little rusty but I’m pretty sure 25 is bigger than 22 and less than 26….

(Source: have a kid in pre-k and he helps me with my math)

(02-14-2022, 03:23 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I'm curious what things are possible again?  We have literally no assets as most of our contracts are neutral or negative.  We will be in cap hell and supposedly lux tax hell (although one of my many concerns with this trade is that Dinwiddie make it more likely for Brunson to bolt and Cuban to let him go).  It will be a couple of years before we can do anything.

It would be one thing if we traded KP contract for air and started over (although it would not have cleared much cap space).  But we traded it for two more terrible contracts, and guys that have just as much availability and fit concerns as KP did.  We all envisioned a lot of potential KP trades, and none of them were nearly as bad as what it turned out to be.  

This is not a time to celebrate.  It is a time for morning.  The KP experiment failed miserably, and the new experiment has way less hope for success.

I disagree, mostly because I think you're failing to account for the business side of negotiations and the ease with which an asset can be rehabbed. KP was basically 2/70 million on the ledger sheet. He came into this season healthier than he ever had been and still missed 21 games(1/3) of his season. Nobody argues the talent but it is a grind to keep him available for even 60% of your games and  you're holding your breath, play to play, in a series. You just can't have 35/per tied up in that & there is no way to erase that concern, for the league, in the next two years. So break that contract into halves, more or less. The dollars become exponentially easier to work with. Perhaps as important, SD has a lengthy track record for performance. He comes here, to a team with Top 4 aspirations in their conference & playing with a Top 5 talent? It's a good bet he closes this season like a freight train. What if he plays like a 6th Man winner for the remainder of this season? Odds are people will discount his time in WAS from the equation. Now he's an asset here or in trade. Much easier rehab and pitch. Ditto DB. Playing a defined role, for a winning team & taking passes from Doncic? You don't have to squint to see his 3% reverting to career levels of 40+%. Much easier rehab & pitch. None of this is guaranteed. It still has to play out but, if DAL keep KP & he suffers another injury ..... there would be no path to moving his money to anyone for anyone. DAL is a far better place to reconstruct the roster moving forward.

(02-14-2022, 03:39 PM)hakeemfaan Wrote: [ -> ]Not sure why we are wasting time on DB’s defense or whether Dimwiddie will be a good fit in the locker room or not. 

The trade was not based on anything positive the Mavs mgmt saw with those two as much as it was about their desperation to get rid of KP that they took the first deal where someone was offering them something. 

Should they have done that or asked more are different questions.  However in terms of players themselves it doesn’t look like they had much choice. Tor backed out due to KP injury concerns and the Mavs quickly pivoted to the remaining offer. Anything positive either of those two might give is just a bonus.  

If folks take Killer’s stance that he is not concerned about the returns as much as about getting rid of KP, then we can move on.

Slightly disagree.  I think they saw some value in Dinwiddie and to a lesser extent, Bertans.  Bertans contract is longer so you are prolonging ripping off the KP band-aid by making the trade.  Conversely they could have just given KP the John Wall treatment.

(02-14-2022, 03:40 PM)soog Wrote: [ -> ]Not strawman at all; that is exactly what people are arguing.  Earlier in this thread people were saying Berty would be get 22min to 26min per game.  KP was getting 25min per game over the last stretch of games. I know my Pre-K math is a little rusty but I’m pretty sure 25 is bigger than 22 and less than 26….

(Source: have a kid in pre-k and he helps me with my math)

Change “exactly” to “kind of” and I can agree with you.

By the way, I predicted 8 mins/game for Bertans.