(06-09-2022, 03:13 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]Just a quick hitter here. Was reading about Philly's situation and something struck me. With Green cut, they have a shot at the full MLE. They have some big holes in the roster and OKC could be a relief valve for some of their money. The problem is the money they need to dump (Harris) is too big for OKC to bear alone.
You convinced me this is probably the smartest move the Mavs can make and it'd be bordering on team-building malpractice if they don't do it.
We essentially turn THJ+Powell, two playoff non-factors, into one player that brings to the table an amalgamation of their skill sets. No, of course Harris can't rim run or set picks, but he can rebound (career 6 a game). No he isn't a deadeye knockdown shooter like THJ, but he can create his own shot and score relatively efficiently. The mere fact he can play 30mpg in a playoff game and produce is already a win. Whatever he'd give is more than whatever we were getting from Powell anyways.
Not to mention he already has some pre-established chemistry here with Boban AND the move clears a roster spot. The Mavs can also probably throw in a Brown or Burke quite easily as their salary is paltry compared to Harris.
It just makes too much sense.
Lets say it's the proposed deal where the Mavs still end up with a pick (be it 23 or 30); if they can then flip that into a starting center, say Wood or Holmes, this team looks incredibly formidable all of a sudden. (Note: Wood's notable locker room issues scare me but beggars can't be choosers).
Luka/Dinwiddie
JB/Green
DFS/Bullock
Harris/Bertans
Holmes/Kleber
Everyone has clear defined roles, nothing is shaken up too much. Only downside is the tax bill Cuban has to pay but that's not our problem.
(06-10-2022, 03:00 AM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]Luka/Dinwiddie
JB/Green
DFS/Bullock
Harris/Bertans
Holmes/Kleber
We're having Josh Green backup Brunson?
The least you could do is imagine Dragic on the roster.
(06-10-2022, 03:00 AM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]You convinced me this is probably the smartest move the Mavs can make and it'd be bordering on team-building malpractice if they don't do it.
We essentially turn THJ+Powell, two playoff non-factors, into one player that brings to the table an amalgamation of their skill sets. No, of course Harris can't rim run or set picks, but he can rebound (career 6 a game). No he isn't a deadeye knockdown shooter like THJ, but he can create his own shot and score relatively efficiently. The mere fact he can play 30mpg in a playoff game and produce is already a win. Whatever he'd give is more than whatever we were getting from Powell anyways.
Not to mention he already has some pre-established chemistry here with Boban AND the move clears a roster spot. The Mavs can also probably throw in a Brown or Burke quite easily as their salary is paltry compared to Harris.
It just makes too much sense.
Lets say it's the proposed deal where the Mavs still end up with a pick (be it 23 or 30); if they can then flip that into a starting center, say Wood or Holmes, this team looks incredibly formidable all of a sudden. (Note: Wood's notable locker room issues scare me but beggars can't be choosers).
Luka/Dinwiddie
JB/Green
DFS/Bullock
Harris/Bertans
Holmes/Kleber
Everyone has clear defined roles, nothing is shaken up too much. Only downside is the tax bill Cuban has to pay but that's not our problem.
I guarantee OKC is looking for a way to get off that #30 (would probably be fine with getting off the 34 too). I like the THJ/Powell deal too, just think it’s cleaner to do THJ/Bertans and be done with it. Maybe that’s the beginning of the deal, then Nico tries to do something like this to pull more out of the deal. I also like adding Brown and/or Burke into deals we make. Add in $3M and they get the money to waive the players.
I’ve been thinking deals like this are second or third down the list if nothing better materializes, but like I said before, I’ve been coming around on Harris being here as a big wing/C.
Various comments on ideas and conversations being given:
1 As the Mavs look for a C, I think they would be well-served to TARGET a center who might be coached up and turn into really good trade asset for the future. Listening to Jake Fischer, he is hearing TOR is willing to part with OG to a team who can offer a good, solid, modest-priced C. He mentioned SA and Poetl, who was "okay" as a center when SA got him, but whose valuation has grown. I don't think it's far-fetched to think the Mavs can find a guy that isn't, but can become that with a better situation and some development, just like SA did.
The Smith and Hartenstein ideas certainly offer that sort of promise. Players like Drummond and McGee do not.
2 Burke is the "just in case" backup to all 3 of Luka, JB, and SD, he's on a cheap deal, and he's a "be ready" guy (doesn't play a lot, but is ready when he gets a chance, and doesn't make waves when he doesn't). That makes him an almost-certain keeper.
Dragic would likely be an upgrade on Burke, but I wouldn't expect him to happen here unless BOTH of 2 things happened: a) Dragic said he will sign with Mavs for the minimum, AND b) some team has a need for Burke as their backup PG, and wants to offer a C or wing that DAL can use on a low-priced contract.
3 If we're looking to Harris as the "best way to consolidate meh into a useful player," I'd rather the Mavs explore Hayward. The word continues to be that CHA is ready to move on from the Hayward Era. For CHA, he's a very big salary who hasn't come anywhere close to earning it, and they might be open to splitting it into usable pieces that could give them some help. Turning him into Powell, Brown, and either Bertans or Hardaway seems like a way, and maybe that helps the Mavs too.
I also don't think Harris is great shakes as a rebounder or defender (or in any area, really), so I'm just not seeing him as any sort of backdoor answer to the Mavs' need for better C play. To me he's just a wing, and if we HAVE TO do something, I'd rather take a chance on Hayward as the overpriced wing but at at over 8M less per season.
(06-10-2022, 08:11 AM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]3 If we're looking to Harris as the "best way to consolidate meh into a useful player," I'd rather the Mavs explore Hayward. The word continues to be that CHA is ready to move on from the Hayward Era. For CHA, he's a very big salary who hasn't come anywhere close to earning it, and they might be open to splitting it into usable pieces that could give them some help. Turning him into Powell, Brown, and either Bertans or Hardaway seems like a way, and maybe that helps the Mavs too.
I also don't think Harris is great shakes as a rebounder or defender (or in any area, really), so I'm just not seeing him as any sort of backdoor answer to the Mavs' need for better C play. To me he's just a wing, and if we HAVE TO do something, I'd rather take a chance on Hayward as the overpriced wing but at at over 8M less per season.
I have been against Harris....don't like paying for others mistakes. I thought Dan S had a good post about Harris and did get me thinking.
Hayward's injury is so scary, but I also think I would prefer him. But it could blow up in your face.
In addition, Morey always needs to win the trade and he has had some history taking advantage of Dallas. Charlotte may be an easier mark. They have two semi high picks, will have a new coach, and have a history or making the wrong choice. So Hayward may be easier to get with limited assets. There is a risk though. Also, without looking at their roster, 3 for 1 trades are tough. They have two picks, but we may need to take another player back too.
(06-10-2022, 09:02 AM)Chicagojk Wrote: [ -> ]So Hayward may be easier to get with limited assets. There is a risk though. Also, without looking at their roster, 3 for 1 trades are tough. They have two picks, but we may need to take another player back too.
You make good points.
Re roster size, early off-season is when teams have the best roster flexibility.
I'm far from expert on CHA roster, needs, plans. But if Hayward is outbound, looks like CHA has only 10-11 slots filled, not counting picks 13, 15, 45, and expect 45 will end up a 2-way at best. The proposed deal also works as a 2-for-1 but I would try to include Brown because I think CHA might see him as low-cost value.
We have talked about it, the highly-respected Itzok F wrote about it, and now Hollinger is coming to the same conclusion on roster building to bring a title these days, which speaks to whether the Mavs bigger need is for a 2nd star, or for several good players who will give them better 2-way depth:
"In the switch-heavy, supermax-paying, 3-point spacing NBA of 2022, a team’s postseason success is driven more by the strength of its weakest link and less by the greatness of its best player.
Let’s not overstate this: Stars matter and are always going to carry the mail to a certain extent. They often define the terms of who else is playable. You’re not a “switchable” big if you can’t switch onto a Curry or Doncić in a playoff series. You’re not a playmaker if you can’t playmake against the Marcus Smarts and Draymond Greens on the other side. You’re not a shooter if you can’t shoot with Robert Williams or Jaren Jackson flying out in your face.
But the NBA is changing. The rise of switching defenses, spacing schemes and high traps has made the game more “weak-link” dependent than arguably any time in its history. Switching leans on the idea that a team’s worst defender can still hold his own better than a scrambling help-and-recover approach … but that means the worst defender still needs to be good enough to check the other steam’s superstar."
(06-10-2022, 09:52 AM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]We have talked about it, the highly-respected Itzok F wrote about it, and now Hollinger is coming to the same conclusion on roster building to bring a title these days, which speaks to whether the Mavs bigger need is for a 2nd star, or for several good players who will give them better 2-way depth:
"In the switch-heavy, supermax-paying, 3-point spacing NBA of 2022, a team’s postseason success is driven more by the strength of its weakest link and less by the greatness of its best player.
Let’s not overstate this: Stars matter and are always going to carry the mail to a certain extent. They often define the terms of who else is playable. You’re not a “switchable” big if you can’t switch onto a Curry or Doncić in a playoff series. You’re not a playmaker if you can’t playmake against the Marcus Smarts and Draymond Greens on the other side. You’re not a shooter if you can’t shoot with Robert Williams or Jaren Jackson flying out in your face.
But the NBA is changing. The rise of switching defenses, spacing schemes and high traps has made the game more “weak-link” dependent than arguably any time in its history. Switching leans on the idea that a team’s worst defender can still hold his own better than a scrambling help-and-recover approach … but that means the worst defender still needs to be good enough to check the other steam’s superstar."
Crazy how one post can increase one's bball IQ significantly.
Good post.
(06-10-2022, 01:26 PM)DallasMaverick Wrote: [ -> ]Ah! So CBAMavs is really F Gump, then.
I've never seen them in the same room together
I still wouldn't rule out a Brunson sign and trade with the Knicks. Looks like the deal below solves all BYC and hard cap issues. Mavs roster cap would stand at $154.6 million, just below the apron and only ~ $7 million into the tax. You can debate what picks might need to be involved.
Brunson ($20) + Brown --> New York
Robinson ($12.5) + Burks --> Dallas
THJ --> Detroit
Detroit gets their top FA target from last season (on a better deal)
New York gets their starting PG and a depth wing
Dallas gets their starting C and another rugged DFS, Bullock type bench scorer (although Burks can handle a bit).
Losing JB would hurt but the Mavs would get much bigger and better defensively. Potentially more versatile as you can start Kleber next to Robinson for a bigger look. Or you could start DFS at PF and get back to the dynamic Kleber/Powell bench duo. Playmaking would suffer but you've got to give to get. You'd still have some expiring contracts and assets for the TDL.
DONCIC
DINWIDDIE BURKS
BULLOCK GREEN
DFS KLEBER
ROBINSON POWELL
Situational NTILIKINA, BERTANS
Some mild rumors coming out that Isaac might be available. Orlando already has some big wings and is likely adding another through draft, so they would not be really able to showcase him much, if he ever gets healthy. He has 23 mil guaranteed left on his deal. He didn't play at all for two years and missed a lot of time even before that. His value is at lowest at this point.
Assuming his health and head are reasonably ok (meaning he can be ready for training camp), would you trade THJ for him?
I would be very interested in constructing something like Isaac+Ross for THJ, Burke and #26. Ross would replace some of what we would lose with THJ and is expiring. Orlando gets some shooting they really need.
(06-10-2022, 02:09 PM)vfromlmf Wrote: [ -> ]I still wouldn't rule out a Brunson sign and trade with the Knicks. Looks like the deal below solves all BYC and hard cap issues. Mavs roster cap would stand at $154.6 million, just below the apron and only ~ $7 million into the tax. You can debate what picks might need to be involved.
Brunson ($20) + Brown --> New York
Robinson ($12.5) + Burks --> Dallas
THJ --> Detroit
NY part of the deal isn’t legal. Robinson is also BYC. So, they can’t take on $23mm while sending out $16.25mm ($10mm for Burks and $6.25mm for Robinson). Easy enough to fix if you send Brown somewhere besides NY. I think the bigger issue is getting Detroit to use its space on Hardaway. With such limited cap room available around the league, is THJ really their highest and best use?
(06-10-2022, 08:11 AM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]Various comments on ideas and conversations being given:
1 As the Mavs look for a C, I think they would be well-served to TARGET a center who might be coached up and turn into really good trade asset for the future. Listening to Jake Fischer, he is hearing TOR is willing to part with OG to a team who can offer a good, solid, modest-priced C. He mentioned SA and Poetl, who was "okay" as a center when SA got him, but whose valuation has grown. I don't think it's far-fetched to think the Mavs can find a guy that isn't, but can become that with a better situation and some development, just like SA did.
The Smith and Hartenstein ideas certainly offer that sort of promise. Players like Drummond and McGee do not.
2 Burke is the "just in case" backup to all 3 of Luka, JB, and SD, he's on a cheap deal, and he's a "be ready" guy (doesn't play a lot, but is ready when he gets a chance, and doesn't make waves when he doesn't). That makes him an almost-certain keeper.
Dragic would likely be an upgrade on Burke, but I wouldn't expect him to happen here unless BOTH of 2 things happened: a) Dragic said he will sign with Mavs for the minimum, AND b) some team has a need for Burke as their backup PG, and wants to offer a C or wing that DAL can use on a low-priced contract.
3 If we're looking to Harris as the "best way to consolidate meh into a useful player," I'd rather the Mavs explore Hayward. The word continues to be that CHA is ready to move on from the Hayward Era. For CHA, he's a very big salary who hasn't come anywhere close to earning it, and they might be open to splitting it into usable pieces that could give them some help. Turning him into Powell, Brown, and either Bertans or Hardaway seems like a way, and maybe that helps the Mavs too.
I also don't think Harris is great shakes as a rebounder or defender (or in any area, really), so I'm just not seeing him as any sort of backdoor answer to the Mavs' need for better C play. To me he's just a wing, and if we HAVE TO do something, I'd rather take a chance on Hayward as the overpriced wing but at at over 8M less per season.
I was with you right up to #3. I don’t dislike the idea of Hayward. When healthy, he’s a pretty good offensive talent. Neither Harris nor Hayward are exactly iron men, but Harris is two years younger and probably still in his prime. Hayward’s numbers have been tailing off a bit.. If rebounding is an issue for the team, Hayward is further from being part of the solution. BTW, I didn’t say Harris was a great rebounder, but he’s top third for his position most years.
I felt like I could actually see Philly taking THJ and Favors. I’m less certain about Charlotte wanting come combo of what we are selling. But, it is Jordan, so you never know. Something I didn’t know, Harris is the cousin of Channing Frye.
Tobias Harris doesn't solve any problems IMO. He's definitely not a center, and not a great defender either.
(06-10-2022, 02:43 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]Some mild rumors coming out that Isaac might be available.
Sign me up. Isaac is a buy-low candidate with the potential to be exactly they type of toolsy defensive forward that Dallas can build around for years. I could also see him playing a lot of center in Dallas just like Maxi.
(06-10-2022, 10:21 PM)Branduil Wrote: [ -> ]Tobias Harris doesn't solve any problems IMO. He's definitely not a center, and not a great defender either.
He’s another playable forward, and that’s not nothing, but I agree - not really worth the time, energy or even a modest package of assets.
(06-11-2022, 01:18 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]He’s another playable forward, and that’s not nothing, but I agree - not really worth the time, energy or even a modest package of assets.
If Philly was giving him away for nothing, yeah, but I don't feel like it would be a good use of our limited assets. Our asset usage this offseason should probably be limited to versatile big men.
(06-10-2022, 08:11 AM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]3 If we're looking to Harris as the "best way to consolidate meh into a useful player," I'd rather the Mavs explore Hayward. The word continues to be that CHA is ready to move on from the Hayward Era. For CHA, he's a very big salary who hasn't come anywhere close to earning it, and they might be open to splitting it into usable pieces that could give them some help. Turning him into Powell, Brown, and either Bertans or Hardaway seems like a way, and maybe that helps the Mavs too.
I was a big Hayward fan right up until last week when I dove further into his bball reference page and listened to some Hornets podcasts.
The dude just cannot stay healthy. A quick comparison:
In the last 3 years, Porzingis played 151 games for the Mavs. Hayward played 145 between Charlotte and Boston. Harris played 207.
It's the same story every year for Hayward. He starts off hot averaging close to 20 a game, then around December/January an injury knocks him out till late March where he comes back a shell of himself.
Haven't we had enough of absentee guys?
Further, Harris is a better scorer as he's more efficient and has a higher ppg than Hayward. Plus he's younger by 3 years. If we're going to trade for an albatross might as well get the one that will actually play no?