I hate to be the wet blanket….but I still think the Mavs will be very lucky if even one of these guys is a solid contributor. Hopefully, a new atmosphere, playoff run, and a different coaching staff can bring something out of them. I just have my doubts about a one trick pony and a semi-injured pg that shoots poorly and has a questionable attitude.
Hoping for the best…..but my hopes are mild. At least they both have shown something in the past..for what thats worth.
(02-15-2022, 01:17 PM)Davemo Wrote: [ -> ]I hate to be the wet blanket….but I still think the Mavs will be very lucky if even one of these guys is a solid contributor. Hopefully, a new atmosphere, playoff run, and a different coaching staff can bring something out of them. I just have my doubts about a one trick pony and a semi-injured pg that shoots poorly and has a questionable attitude.
Nothing wrong with a healthy skepticism, imo. We should have all been more worried about Porzingis when the Mavs got him, but very few (if any) people were. It was blue kool aid all around back then.
(02-15-2022, 01:13 PM)Smitty Wrote: [ -> ]I think they knew they would need to move KP at some point, but weren't going to do so at any cost. I think they think this was a decent enough deal to make. I think Cuban and others really like Dinwiddie, for better or worse... What I think: Dinwiddie+Bertans becoming good again > KP ever working out.
I guess we will agree to hard disagree on whether this was a good deal. I like to check myself from my homer tendencies (which can run both optimistic or pessimistic depending on situation) with outside sources. It seems like every NBA analyst hates this deal for the Mavs and the Wiz are jumping for joy. Maybe Nico is a genius that sees things most of the rest don't. I guess we will find out.
One article that digs into Dinwiddie, and gives rational (not just wishful) data that might indicate he was better with Wiz than we might notice from stats seen afar. It speaks to Beal's going into a slump, which then he forced things, becoming a massive problem for the whole team.
https://www.mavsmoneyball.com/2022/2/15/...tatsrticle
From the article, SD's stats at the outset, then
without Beal after BB became a problem --
15.7 points, 5.7 assists, 5.3 rebounds per game, 41.6% FG on 13.3 attempts, 35.6% from three on 5.6 attempts.
18.5 points, 7.8 assists, 5.5 rebounds, 44.1% FG on 14.5 attempts, 37.8% from three on 6.3 attempts
If SD can already play at that level (and you would think Luka might be easier to co-exist with), then he's not at all the "damaged goods" we fear the Mavs are going to have to rehabilitate. Which changes things completely, imo.
You can find Wiz fan videos thinking Dincoin was an all-star at the first of the year. You can also find not so nice stuff later on.
(02-15-2022, 01:34 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]From the article, SD's stats at the outset, then without Beal after BB became a problem --
Sorry, but the article is just a heep of whishfull thinking. "THJ was considered an albatross once but look at him now" stuff. I will not even go into that he is again a very similar albatross contract as he was when he came here.
The whole piece is built from the assumptions that Beal is some sort of ball hog that just didn't want to share the ball while Luka is something totally different. that Luka having the ball is something completely different in regard to SD than Beal having it.
It doesn't need to be a huge analyst to see that is simply not true. Luka has the ball far more than Beal. The only difference is that Luka is more efficient.
SD stats without Beal were good, because SD had the ball. But I guess we don't hope now Luka injures himself so SD could have better stats.
(02-15-2022, 01:33 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I guess we will agree to hard disagree on whether this was a good deal. I like to check myself from my homer tendencies (which can run both optimistic or pessimistic depending on situation) with outside sources. It seems like every NBA analyst hates this deal for the Mavs and the Wiz are jumping for joy. Maybe Nico is a genius that sees things most of the rest don't. I guess we will find out.
I remember a time when I thought trading FOR KP was a good deal, so I've been wrong before.... And if memory serves, "outside sources" thought the Mavs did pretty well also. Time will tell.... until then, I will root for any and all Mavs players to succeed. I will also be the first to admit when my opinion proves incorrect. As for now, I hope I'm right on the KP trade this time around...
(02-15-2022, 01:46 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]Sorry, but the article is just a heep of whishfull thinking.
Perhaps.
Or perhaps there's something about SD your determined negativity is causing you to dismissively overlook. We'll see.
(02-15-2022, 01:51 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]determined negativity
?
I haven't seen anything in the article that would negate the main reported thing about SD from Washington - he wasn't good without the ball.
(02-15-2022, 01:54 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]?
I haven't seen anything in the article that would negate the main reported thing about SD from Washington - he wasn't good without the ball.
He wasn't good with a ball-hog. Luka makes everyone better (except KP). Those are the two main points in the article imo.
(02-15-2022, 01:54 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]?
I haven't seen anything in the article that would negate the main reported thing about SD from Washington - he wasn't good without the ball.
Nitpicking results showing "
18.5 points, 7.8 assists, 5.5 rebounds, 44.1% FG on 14.5 attempts, 37.8% from three on 6.3 attempts" into some sort of awful expectation for the player is certainly "determined negativity," no matter how you choose to do it.
Smitty gets the reason for possibility here - it was clear - while you blew by the point in the article, fishing for a reason to dismiss it.
I don't know what SD will be in Dallas - but neither do you. Let's see what happens before we proclaim the sky is falling.
(02-15-2022, 02:03 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]Let's see what happens before we proclaim the sky is falling.
On the flip side, before we proclaim the ceiling is raising too, right? Omahen didn't weigh in for a bit until there was overwhelming attempts to put that lipstick on the pig. I myself jumped in after reading so many "this is great" posts, but Omahen waited longer than me...good on ya! So, I'd say "determined negativity" is more reactionary than not.
(02-15-2022, 02:03 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]Nitpicking results showing "18.5 points, 7.8 assists, 5.5 rebounds, 44.1% FG on 14.5 attempts, 37.8% from three on 6.3 attempts" into some sort of awful expectation for the player is certainly "determined negativity," no matter how you choose to do it.
These results were achieved in situations without Beal - when SD had the ball. I still have no idea how this negates the main complaint about SD coming from Washington. "He is not good without the ball".
(02-15-2022, 02:01 PM)Smitty Wrote: [ -> ]He wasn't good with a ball-hog. Luka makes everyone better (except KP).
And Wright, and JRich... Claiming Luka makes everyone better is just wishful thinking, it is not a fact or a proof. And I love Luka
(02-15-2022, 02:11 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Omahen didn't weigh in for a bit until there was overwhelming attempts to put that lipstick on the pig
Exactly
(02-15-2022, 02:13 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]These results were achieved in situations without Beal - when SD had the ball. I still have no idea how this negates the main complaint about SD coming from Washington. "He is not good without the ball".
And Wright, and JRich... Claiming Luka makes everyone better is just wishful thinking, it is not a fact or a proof. And I love Luka
Exactly
I guess it's a good thing Dinwiddie shoots 37% on catch and shoot 3's over the last three years. Also a good thing he can handle the ball and average 5 assist per game. Oh and he's 6' 5" for those saying Brunson is useless because of his size. He checks more boxes for this team than some are willing to admit or see. Of course there are negatives but it's unhealthy to only highlight those and not see the positives and why he could be better than 40 games a year of an ill-fitting KP.
(02-15-2022, 01:46 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]Sorry, but the article is just a heep of whishfull thinking. "THJ was considered an albatross once but look at him now" stuff. I will not even go into that he is again a very similar albatross contract as he was when he came here.
The whole piece is built from the assumptions that Beal is some sort of ball hog that just didn't want to share the ball while Luka is something totally different. that Luka having the ball is something completely different in regard to SD than Beal having it.
It doesn't need to be a huge analyst to see that is simply not true. Luka has the ball far more than Beal. The only difference is that Luka is more efficient.
SD stats without Beal were good, because SD had the ball. But I guess we don't hope now Luka injures himself so SD could have better stats.
This guy is a known Dinwiddie homer, but the article is not that bad. I think there will be a difference playing with Luka than with Beal. Luka is a much more willing passer. Playing off Luka will probably improve his efficiencies, but I'm not expecting a huge difference. There is a possibility that his level of play improves enough such that his contract is moveable.
It was bad luck that THJ broke his foot, but I don't think he is on an albatross contract, especially with it descending and the typical market for a volume shooter. He might need to play some to get back to neutral, but assuming he comes back healthy don't see him near albatross level (I withhold that designation for Bertans).
On the other hand, if Luka rises all boats then what happened to Delon Wright and Josh Richardson? I feel Dinwiddie could just as easily fall into that category than any other. I am also worried about the chemistry on court across Luka, Brunson and Dinwiddie who I think all are better with ball in their hands.
(02-15-2022, 01:13 PM)Smitty Wrote: [ -> ]Dinwiddie+Bertans becoming good again > KP ever working out
I ascribe to this 100%.
I think this is the simplest and best explanation of my position.
(02-15-2022, 02:19 PM)Smitty Wrote: [ -> ]I guess it's a good thing Dinwiddie shoots 37% on catch and shoot 3's over the last three years. Also a good thing he can handle the ball and average 5 assist per game. Oh and he's 6' 5" for those saying Brunson is useless because of his size. He checks more boxes for this team than some are willing to admit or see. Of course there are negatives but it's unhealthy to only highlight those and not see the positives and why he could be better than 40 games a year of an ill-fitting KP.
Who is highlighting the negatives? I see people highlighting facts that his recent body of work has not been good. I also see people highlighting positives and claiming how things might be totally different in Dallas than in Washington. And then I see people responding to those claims.
Lets return to the ball hogging Beal theory laid out in the article. Below are beal stats accross months
October: EFG 39, TS 45, USG 34, FGA: 24
November: 52, 56, 29, 18
December: 53, 56, 29, 19
January: 47, 54, 27, 17
So in reality Beal had by far worse month in October and there is not really any sign that he started ball hogging later in the season as the article claims.