(02-15-2022, 05:39 PM)haveitall Wrote: [ -> ]I think there is probably another reason why KP got traded. Some injuries are clearly ones players cant play through, if there is a torn ACL they are done. However star players take a beating and play though pain. Clearly Luka plays through a lot of pain, he takes a beating. KP on the other hand is very protective of his body and is afraid to get a bigger injury so he is currently sitting out a 2nd or 3rd week with a bone bruise. I think KP sitting out minor stuff is what pissed the team off, especially Luka. How come he has to play through a bad back and KP gets to relax and collect 30MM+ each season.
Not sure if this is true or if Cuban is lying. Cuban said multiple times that KP would have played if the games were more meaningful.
Let’s say Cuban was honest. It still means the team had to pick and choose what games a 25 year old could play so that he might be able to play a longer stretch in the playoffs. You can’t build around a fragile player like that. That’s why I was ready to move on from him as well. My only disagreements with some others are that I still believe he is much more talented than what some are giving him credit for ( talent that can’t be easily replaced) and the fact that we should have held out for a FRP from an even more desperate team than us.
(02-15-2022, 05:04 PM)soog Wrote: [ -> ]Agreed, definitely 1 of THJ/Dinwiddie is gone by start of next season. They are redundant.
The only way Bertans goes out is if you are sending a #1 pick with him and getting nothing in return. That contract will be unmovable so we better get comfortable with it.
I think there’s the possibility that the mavs ship out one or both of Powell/Maxi this summer because of the logjam of unspectacular bigs, but they should only do that if they needed filler for a trade. Since both Powell and Maxi roll off the books after next year there is no huge benefit to trading them unless you get something in return.
I think the best hope of roster moves this summer is probably:
Mavs send: THJ (or Dinwiddie) + Maxi + whoever they pick in the first round
Mavs receive: ???
This also would fit the “flexibility” narrative Nico is preaching since the redundant nature of his recent acquisition make other people on the roster more expendable.
I'm confused how THJ and Dinwiddie are redundant? They are completely different players. THJ and Bertans are redundant. You could make an argument that Dinwiddie and Brunson are redundant.
You think we are shipping out one or both of Powell/Maxi? They are currently our only playable bigs (unless you count DFS). We are horribly thin on bigs at the moment. Don't think we can afford to ship one out.
Who are you getting with that package? A neutral to negative asset, a slightly positive asset, and a late first. That is a lot of salary as well. Maybe Tobias Harris? That would leave us with Powell being our only center. I think we need to bring another big in, not send one out.
(02-15-2022, 05:38 PM)Arioch Wrote: [ -> ]This is what I don't understand. I understand not liking the deal. I understand thinking no deal would have been better than the deal that was made. I don't understand asserting there was a better deal to be made. How are the "Wizards more desperate than us"? By the time they made the deal, Beal had had season-ending surgery and they were sitting at 24-29 with a best case scenario of scraping into the 10th seed and getting bounced in the first play-in game. The remainder of the season is a clear write-off for them. If they didn't like the deal, they could just wait for the summer and hope to find a better deal then--or even come back to take the deal then since they knew no one else was looking to take Porzingis off our hands.
Dallas, on the other hand, will be a playoff team, and while I doubt anyone in the front office thinks they are an actual contender, I think they think they could win a series or two (worth millions to the franchise if so). If they didn't move KP now, they would *have to* play him which a) they don't seem to have wanted to do, and b) risk that final injury that tanked his value completely which they were apparently worried about.
If anything, what may have made the deal possible (given no other team seems to have been interested in gambling on KP) was the fact that the Wizards were *not* desparate and felt comfortable making Dallas a take it or leave it offer.
I can turn around everything you say.
The Mavs are not losing Luka anytime soon. They were still a top 4 seed this with KP and Luka not even playing many games together. The Wiz OTOH have their star hurt, rumors that he might ask for a move out. Analysts were and are still saying they are not sure what that Wiz organization is doing.
A fragile talent but still a talent in KP just might cause Beal to stay longer. Maybe KP like Nash suddenly gets injury free. Both are stretches but at least they have something to look forward to now. Plus they got rid of two contracts that while on paper might be easier to move than KP’s are terrible contracts currently.
That’s why yes the Wiz were in a more desperate position than us and we absolutely should have asked for a FRP or waited till the summer. The only x factor there is that none of us know if the Luka KP relationship was so fractured that the Mavs felt the need to make the move now and not even wait for a few more months.
We just need to trade our 22 FRP with the knicks for our 23 FRP and we will have all our future picks ready in a deal…
I watched this highlight of Andre Drummond and he put on a screen clinic.
I love this guy, I Know he is under valued across the league but his ability to set screens is probably the best in the league.
I would love to have him setting screens for Luka
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lq0QjqzRkMo
(02-15-2022, 05:08 PM)Smitty Wrote: [ -> ]This is exactly what I envision also.
Turner?!
I think there is a good chance Maxi or Bertans is moved and either one of Hardaway, Bullock or Dinwiddie is moved. You could also include Brunson, but I will be super bummed if Mavs lose him in FA.
I think Maxi is the more attractive of the two to teams due to contract. The trouble with most of our guys is they are role players. Some nights they look great, other nights they look invisible. I really can't see Bertans being a positive asset this offseason. Mavs really need to find talent, and worry about the rest later. I think we are going to be star hunting. I would feel better if our organization was like Toronto and could develop from within with guys they target. The Mavs really haven't been very good at this recently.
Maybe Maxi plus 22 first gets you something. Turner?
Then Hardaway future picks, picks swaps get you something else. Grant?
What bothers me is the Mavs are in a desperate stage and teams know it. Plus, their asset base isn't strong. Is there enough there to find two quality starters? That may be tough. Does those two trades get you both Turner and Grant? I don't think either are #2 on championship teams.
(02-15-2022, 06:21 PM)Chicagojk Wrote: [ -> ]The Mavs really haven't been very good at this recently.
Mavs in Luka rookie year were 33-49. They are on the pace to be something like 49-33 this season with basically same team. So one could say their internal development is quite good
(02-15-2022, 06:21 PM)Chicagojk Wrote: [ -> ]What bothers me is the Mavs are in a desperate stage and teams know it. Plus, their asset base isn't strong. Is there enough there to find two quality starters? That may be tough. Does those two trades get you both Turner and Grant? I don't think either are #2 on championship teams.
I think the only solutions is if a real star says, "trade me to Dallas". Than we put on the table the three picks, some pick swaps and Green. The rest of the contracts are not really important imho, as the receiving team would be getting in a rebuild mode anyway. For reference I would take JRue deal from New Orleans with long term Bledsoe contract, Gordon deal with long term Harris contract.
(02-15-2022, 05:45 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I'm confused how THJ and Dinwiddie are redundant? They are completely different players. THJ and Bertans are redundant. You could make an argument that Dinwiddie and Brunson are redundant.
You think we are shipping out one or both of Powell/Maxi? They are currently our only playable bigs (unless you count DFS). We are horribly thin on bigs at the moment. Don't think we can afford to ship one out.
Who are you getting with that package? A neutral to negative asset, a slightly positive asset, and a late first. That is a lot of salary as well. Maybe Tobias Harris? That would leave us with Powell being our only center. I think we need to bring another big in, not send one out.
THJ and Dinwiddie are both 6’6” high-volume, inefficient guards who can create their own shot. Dinwiddie has better handles and THJ shoots better. They both fill the role of providing a scoring when Luka is out, most likely off of the bench. You can throw Brunson in here if you like because he is a scoring guard, but he is much more efficient and more of a PG than either of these, which is why I excluded him. Also the main point of this post was regarding who the Mavs may trade in the coming offseason and the Mavs don’t want to trade him so he doesn’t fit the topic.
And yes, you mention DFS who currently starts a PF and logs significant minutes at PF, so while I agree we are thin on bigs, I don’t agree they are our only ones. You are also excluding Bertans. It seems you consider him more of a guard since you think he is interchangeable with THJ, but while the guy can shoot like a guard (maybe), he is 6’10” with slow feet and will need to be played at PF to hide his other weaknesses as a player. That means you have Maxi, Powell, and Bertans all competing for minutes and all just OK at what they do. I would personally rather ship Bertans out, but as I mentioned before you won’t be able to move that contract, so that makes Maxi and Powell more expendable.
And the part you seem to be neglecting all together is the part where I said it doesn’t make sense for the Mavs to force a trade since both Powell and Maxi expire next year, so it should only be done as a filler contract…. for a big…
TWO NOTES --
1 Re the need for a center, one thing that I haven't seen mentioned (I could have missed it) is that a significant issue with KP is that he's always going to be a $35M center - and in today's era, you shouldn't pat thay much for a center unless he's a pure superstar. Jokic. Embiid.
Good ones are available every year for $15Mish more or less, for example Holmes last summer. They are easy to find. Minimum salary, often.
The Mavs need to get their spending reasonable on that position, in relation to what guys like that go for. Even without KP, they are still paying quite a bit.
2 Looking forward, my from-nowhere working assumption is that around the draft, the Mavs will try to package one of THJ, SD, or DB with their pick, for someone they like better. Ideally, they would find a way between now and then to change perceptions of all 3 of those.
High on my wish list would be a THJ-for-Brogdon swap. But depending on what we see of the 3 between now and then, the preferences of who to send, and the wish list, might change a lot.
(02-15-2022, 07:19 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]TWO NOTES --
1 Re the need for a center, one thing that I haven't seen mentioned (I could have missed it) is that a significant issue with KP is that he's always going to be a $35M center - and in today's era, you shouldn't pat thay much for a center unless he's a pure superstar. Jokic. Embiid.
Good ones are available every year for $15Mish more or less, for example Holmes last summer. They are easy to find. Minimum salary, often.
The Mavs need to get their spending reasonable on that position, in relation to what guys like that go for. Even without KP, they are still paying quite a bit.
2 Looking forward, my from-nowhere working assumption is that around the draft, the Mavs will try to package one of THJ, SD, or DB with their pick, for someone they like better. Ideally, they would find a way between now and then to change perceptions of all 3 of those.
High on my wish list would be a THJ-for-Brogdon swap. But depending on what we see of the 3 between now and then, the preferences of who to send, and the wish list, might change a lot.
I agree with the centers. Ideally it would be someone like Dwight but better on defense and just more inside scoring potential. I go back and forth if I would want a Jarrett Allen athletic type or a Marc Gasol type. I agree, you can find those players. Maybe saying Allen or prime Gasol is a lot to ask, but finding a guy like that would be a home run.
Brogdan is interesting. He too probably has lower value due to injuries and concerns of future injuries. Just on initial thought, I would love a rotation of Luka, Brunson and Brogdan. Both Brogdan and Jalen are smart players, efficient and don't make many mistakes. Can you keep both Jalen and Brogdan?
(02-15-2022, 07:19 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]TWO NOTES --
1 Re the need for a center, one thing that I haven't seen mentioned (I could have missed it) is that a significant issue with KP is that he's always going to be a $35M center - and in today's era, you shouldn't pat thay much for a center unless he's a pure superstar. Jokic. Embiid.
Good ones are available every year for $15Mish more or less, for example Holmes last summer. They are easy to find. Minimum salary, often.
The Mavs need to get their spending reasonable on that position, in relation to what guys like that go for. Even without KP, they are still paying quite a bit.
2 Looking forward, my from-nowhere working assumption is that around the draft, the Mavs will try to package one of THJ, SD, or DB with their pick, for someone they like better. Ideally, they would find a way between now and then to change perceptions of all 3 of those.
High on my wish list would be a THJ-for-Brogdon swap. But depending on what we see of the 3 between now and then, the preferences of who to send, and the wish list, might change a lot.
Good point on what position that $35M was being spent on.
I still haven’t given up on Holmes. In the new world order of Sacramento his playing time has dropped significantly as has his production. He might not be hard to pull away this offseason.
(02-15-2022, 05:04 PM)soog Wrote: [ -> ]I think the best hope of roster moves this summer is probably:
Mavs send: THJ (or Dinwiddie) + Maxi + whoever they pick in the first round
Mavs receive: ???
Seems like Tobias Harris would be a good pivot.
THJ+Maxi for Harris and whoever Philly gets in the 2022 draft assuming BRK defers the pick to 2023.
(02-15-2022, 07:19 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]TWO NOTES --
1 Re the need for a center, one thing that I haven't seen mentioned (I could have missed it) is that a significant issue with KP is that he's always going to be a $35M center - and in today's era, you shouldn't pat thay much for a center unless he's a pure superstar. Jokic. Embiid.
Good ones are available every year for $15Mish more or less, for example Holmes last summer. They are easy to find. Minimum salary, often.
The Mavs need to get their spending reasonable on that position, in relation to what guys like that go for. Even without KP, they are still paying quite a bit.
2 Looking forward, my from-nowhere working assumption is that around the draft, the Mavs will try to package one of THJ, SD, or DB with their pick, for someone they like better. Ideally, they would find a way between now and then to change perceptions of all 3 of those.
High on my wish list would be a THJ-for-Brogdon swap. But depending on what we see of the 3 between now and then, the preferences of who to send, and the wish list, might change a lot.
Agree with the first part. I don't think THJ and our 22 first will be enough to get Brogdon, and I doubt Indy is interested in THJ unless they move Hield.
I have a feeling Brunson will be traded to the Knicks this summer. Seems too tempting for Jalen to go direct the NY show, apparently he has certain ties there and they really love him...and he would fit like a glove with Grimes/Barrett/Reddish/Toppin... I might see an ST for Randle.. although personally I would be interested in Robinson +Dallas23, even if we had to roll a 2... We could send
Robinson(ST)+ Maxi for Turner..
Turner expires in 1 year and the Pacers value the players under contract, since they are not destined for the FA...
On the other hand, and although today it is a utopic, I think the Jazz could make Gobert available, when they fail in the Playoffs again, it seems that he does not have the best relationship with Mitchell and his core is getting old. I would absolutely love him at the Mavs even with that albatross contract. If we hypothetically obtain Robinson(ST)+Dallas 23 for Brunson(ST)
THJ/Green/Dallas 23 to PISTONS
Grant/Robinson to JAZZ ...
Gober to MAVS
Well I know it's a smoke, but I wanted to share it with you
On the value of the Mavs' 2022 first round pick...
It's pretty rare that even a high FRP contributes in a meaningful way during his first year or two. Josh Green, whom we're starting to warm up to, is just barely starting to crack the rotation. We're pleased with the trajectory, but it looks like year 3 will be when he provides positive value for his contract. This learning curve is even more pronounced for one-and-done players.
...and of course, if you're drafting in the 20's, it's likely that your player will be out of the league in 5 years.
Based on Luka's development, the ages of players currently on the roster, and their position as middle-of-the pack contenders, I find it difficult to believe that they will take a long-term view on the 2022 FRP.
Much more likely it's traded for someone who can contribute to winning now.
(02-16-2022, 12:36 PM)DallasMaverick Wrote: [ -> ]On the value of the Mavs' 2022 first round pick...
It's pretty rare that even a high FRP contributes in a meaningful way during his first year or two. Josh Green, whom we're starting to warm up to, is just barely starting to crack the rotation. We're pleased with the trajectory, but it looks like year 3 will be when he provides positive value for his contract. This learning curve is even more pronounced for one-and-done players.
...and of course, if you're drafting in the 20's, it's likely that your player will be out of the league in 5 years.
Based on Luka's development, the ages of players currently on the roster, and their position as middle-of-the pack contenders, I find it difficult to believe that they will take a long-term view on the 2022 FRP.
Much more likely it's traded for someone who can contribute to winning now.
Trading for an established player is also probably better in terms of trying to assemble a future trade package to land a star. It gives you salary matching ability and you don't have to worry about your draft pick's value dropping the moment he steps on the floor.
I'd love to see something like Powell + 1st for Holmes for example.
(02-16-2022, 09:01 AM)Mikelo Wrote: [ -> ]I have a feeling Brunson will be traded to the Knicks this summer. Seems too tempting for Jalen to go direct the NY show, apparently he has certain ties there and they really love him...and he would fit like a glove with Grimes/Barrett/Reddish/Toppin... I might see an ST for Randle.. although personally I would be interested in Robinson +Dallas23, even if we had to roll a 2... We could send
Robinson(ST)+ Maxi for Turner..
Turner expires in 1 year and the Pacers value the players under contract, since they are not destined for the FA...
On the other hand, and although today it is a utopic, I think the Jazz could make Gobert available, when they fail in the Playoffs again, it seems that he does not have the best relationship with Mitchell and his core is getting old. I would absolutely love him at the Mavs even with that albatross contract. If we hypothetically obtain Robinson(ST)+Dallas 23 for Brunson(ST)
THJ/Green/Dallas 23 to PISTONS
Grant/Robinson to JAZZ ...
Gober to MAVS
Well I know it's a smoke, but I wanted to share it with you
You are too late. No reason for NY to give up much when they can simply clear cap and sign Brunson straight up. Its likely sign Brunson for market value or watch him walk for nothing.
(02-16-2022, 02:34 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ] No reason for NY to give up much when they can simply clear cap and sign Brunson straight up. Its likely sign Brunson for market value or watch him walk for nothing.
I think you're wrong when you say NY can idly "simply clear cap" -- that itself will cost them multiple assets, so there is going to be plenty of opportunity for a Mavs SNT instead, if JB wants to go there. But fwiw I am skeptical he's going to be that interested, unless the NY money is overwhelming compared to elsewhere. They are bad.