(02-11-2022, 09:27 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]Don´t get me wrong. Seth is a great shooter. Probably would beat all of them in the 3-point contest. And he also has development a nice midrange/floater game.
But I don´t think he is as willing of a shooter as the mentioned names. For better or worse those guys will take 7-10 3s per game if they get starter minutes. They aren´t hesitating. When Seth played for the Mavs I wanted him to shoot more. Coaches mentioned the same. But it never happened.
Robinson aside, most of those are bad comps and I don't even like the Robinson comparison tbh. All those guys can do more with the ball in their hands. Bertans isn't going to get starter minutes. I hope he turns it around and maybe Texas water or being closer to Pop will make him play better but pretending like isn't a major negative asset is crazy.
(02-11-2022, 09:26 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]What makes you think differently, just his position?
He's not the kind of big that get rebounds. He really reminds me more of a big SF more than a PF. I suspect that's how they will want to use him. I kind of wish he was better rebounder since we could use it, but he's not that player
I noticed even Gallinari is staying behind the 3-point line almost exclusively these days.
(02-11-2022, 09:34 PM)Winter Wrote: [ -> ]I noticed even Gallinari is staying behind the 3-point line almost exclusively these days.
Yeah, spacing is key in the modern NBA, no doubt about it.
To be clear, when I said "several spots in some actions" before, I meant several spots behind the three point line. Run around the screen and the defender closes the gap too fast? Run back around, use it the other way...catch the ball, hand it off to the screener, run around to the first place again. Go baseline to the opposite side, do all of it again over there...know what I mean?
That's THJ stuff, not Kleber stuff, regardless of what position you're playing at the time. Maybe Bertans isn't going to be that guy (maybe it's a joke to even talk about it) but I feel like THAT'S who WAS thought they were rewarding with that contract.
(02-11-2022, 09:33 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]Bertans isn't going to get starter minutes. I hope he turns it around and maybe Texas water or being closer to Pop will make him play better but pretending like isn't a major negative asset is crazy.
1) Him getting 25-29 mins is not out of the question (what he averaged in WAS before this year).
2) Pretending that he IS a major negative asset is crazy. (see how that works, we just assert things)
(02-11-2022, 09:39 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]2) Pretending that he IS a major negative asset is crazy. (see how that works, we just assert things)
It's not me assertion, friend.
(02-11-2022, 09:41 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]It's not me assertion, friend.
You have been asserting. I have been trying to present my case with numbers, facts, and reasons.
(02-11-2022, 09:43 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]You have been asserting. I have been trying to present my case with numbers, facts, and reasons.
You have a desire to win this trade, it's obvious, thus the silly comps. These aren't my assertions but what the rest of the league feels about him, the media covering him and most importantly his now former team. So no, him having a terrible contract isn't my assertion.
(02-11-2022, 09:46 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]You have a desire to win this trade, it's obvious, thus the silly comps. These aren't my assertions but what the rest of the league feels about him, the media covering him and most importantly his now former team. So no, him having a terrible contract isn't my assertion.
Take Kuzma for example, sucked in LA and traded to a coach that could leverage his skillset where he knows what is expected and he is having a career year.
Some of these NBA guys especially the role players typically require more things to cater to their comfort level to get the best out of their abilities. Its the same reason why we saw Rick do better with guys like Brandon Wright who were thought to be busts.
Bertans has never played with a guy like Luka and and Brad Beal who is the closest to Luka in terms of offensive ability was never a guy that could make his teammates better.
We all need to take a step back and remember not all things are equal here. We have a lot of intangibles that suggest Bertans fits better for us and what we do than he did in Washington.
I love the trade, I just hate we have a gaping hole at Center. If we could somehow get Nurkic on this roster then the trade turns into, Bertans, Nurkic, and Dinwiddie for KP. You can replace Nurkic with any of the buyout bigs and its a much better trade because we got rid of one guy for 3 rotation pieces that will help us for a deep playoff run.
This was a good move and likely one that was done for what could come in the buyout market, i.e. a Big to add to it.
(02-11-2022, 09:43 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]You have been asserting. I have been trying to present my case with numbers, facts, and reasons.
Some Mavs fans need to realize KP held us back more than he helped us. His defensive play was inconsistent and his shooting was inconsistent. Our offense and ball movement is much better with him not on the roster now.
What did we give up:
KP in our system (An honest assessment):- Average to below average 3 point shooter
- Inconsistent Offense
- Often injured
- Bad shot selection
- Inconsistent defense.
What we added:- Another creator and slasher
- Shooter
- Split KP's cap number into 2 moveable players
Now the injuries exist on both sides we just traded a guy that was a bad fit likely impacted our locker room and soured the fanbase. It was time for KP to go and it was unfair to continue dealing with it while the team suffered.
At least we can bet on Dinwiddie and Bertans returning to their career form as a better gamble than KP who has been what he is now throughout his career.
I am not falling for the okee doke anymore, KP is fools gold and always was.
It was time and I agree with you 100%
(02-11-2022, 09:46 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]You have a desire to win this trade
Actually the trade is a loss in the big picture. The Mavs paid WAY more for KP than they got back and their shot at star-KP was a fail. So if you think I am "defending" the Mavs you are dead wrong. The Mavs utterly failed the KP experiment.
But...
1) ...considering the circumstances (how KP's value was totally tanked) the Mavs (Nico) did well.
2) ...Bertans has the single most important skill in the NBA, shooting. There is nothing that makes me think it is not coming back. It is not that different as to when we were complaining about Luka early this year. He was sucking (for his standard and even by NBA standards in ways), but we had enough evidence to believe he would figure it out with time. And he did.
(02-11-2022, 10:04 PM)Omega_Supreme Wrote: [ -> ]Some Mavs fans need to realize KP held us back more than he helped us. His defensive play was inconsistent and his shooting was inconsistent. Our offense and ball movement is much better with him not on the roster now.
What did we give up:
KP in our system (An honest assessment):- Average to below average 3 point shooter
- Inconsistent Offense
- Often injured
- Bad shot selection
- Inconsistent defense.
What we added:- Another creator and slasher
- Shooter
- Split KP's cap number into 2 moveable players
Now the injuries exist on both sides we just traded a guy that was a bad fit likely impacted our locker room and soured the fanbase. It was time for KP to go and it was unfair to continue dealing with it while the team suffered.
At least we can bet on Dinwiddie and Bertans returning to their career form as a better gamble than KP who has been what he is now throughout his career.
I am not falling for the okee doke anymore, KP is fools gold and always was.
It was time and I agree with you 100%
Great post and well said.
(02-11-2022, 10:05 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Actually the trade is a loss in the big picture. The Mavs paid WAY more for KP than they got back and their shot at star-KP was a fail. So if you think I am "defending" the Mavs you are dead wrong. The Mavs utterly failed the KP experiment.
But...
1) ...considering the circumstances (how KP's value was totally tanked) the Mavs (Nico) did well.
2) ...Bertans has the single most important skill in the NBA, shooting. There is nothing that makes me think it is not coming back. It is not that different as to when we were complaining about Luka early this year. He was sucking (for his standard and even by NBA standards in ways), but we had enough evidence to believe he would figure it out with time. And he did.
1) I completely disagree. I don't think there is a winner in this trade but I do consider the Mavs the bigger loser.
2) I think Bertans will bounce back. Change of scenery does a lot of people good. We might have enough defense to help disguise one of the worst defenders in the league. Even if he returns to his Latvian Laser form, his contract is still bad. He has an elite skill and brings nothing else to the table which makes that elite skill a lot less valuable. Pop loved him and still traded him. Wizards paid him and instantly regretted it. This is a terrible contract swap with both teams hoping to salvage some rotational minutes from each player. I know if I was coaching against the Mavericks in the playoffs, I'd go at Bertans ever second he is on the floor. He fouls, can't stay in front of people and is slow on rotations. 6'10" and averages 2.7 rebounds for his career. I don't expect any of that to magically change.
(02-11-2022, 10:13 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]1) I completely disagree. I don't think there is a winner in this trade but I do consider the Mavs the bigger loser.
2) I think Bertans will bounce back. Change of scenery does a lot of people good. We might have enough defense to help disguise one of the worst defenders in the league. Even if he returns to his Latvian Laser form, his contract is still bad. He has an elite skill and brings nothing else to the table which makes that elite skill a lot less valuable. Pop loved him and still traded him. Wizards paid him and instantly regretted it. This is a terrible contract swap with both teams hoping to salvage some rotational minutes from each player. I know if I was coaching against the Mavericks in the playoffs, I'd go at Bertans ever second he is on the floor. He fouls, can't stay in front of people and is slow on rotations. 6'10" and averages 2.7 rebounds for his career. I don't expect any of that to magically change.
All shooters are paid above average, we said the same thing when Duncan Robinson got his money. Elite shooting comes at a major cost in the NBA. Bertans is not overpaid, he is paid on par with other elite shooters in the NBA. 10 to 18 million is the going rate for those guys. By the way, Brooks used Bertans like Kidd will. Bertans got a lot of catch and shoot opportunities from Russ last year that were not there this year in their system. Unself Jr. and the new staff did not have a fit for him which is clear. The coaching change is something to keep in mind when assessing his play this year. The same with Dinwiddie, lots of those pieces did not mesh well.
(02-11-2022, 10:17 PM)Omega_Supreme Wrote: [ -> ]All shooters are paid above average, we said the same thing when Duncan Robinson got his money. Elite shooting comes at a major cost in the NBA. Bertans is not overpaid, he is paid on par with other elite shooters in the NBA. 10 to 18 million is the going rate for those guys.
Disagree. Heat could flip Robinson for an asset. The only way the Wizards got off Bertans contract was to take on KP's horrible deal. While I think Robinson's probably the closest comp being discussed here, he's still more versatile and an all around better player. I'll give you that it helps he's on a much better team that can hide his weaknesses and the Mavs might be able to do that to an extent with Bertans, but Robinson's position is more likely to get a help defender whereas Bertans is more apt to be the help defender.
(02-11-2022, 10:26 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]I'll give you that it helps he's on a much better team that can hide his weaknesses and the Mavs might be able to do that to an extent with Bertans
At what point does it become diminishing returns when you have to say that about so many on the roster?
(02-11-2022, 10:26 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]Disagree. Heat could flip Robinson for an asset. The only way the Wizards got off Bertans contract was to take on KP's horrible deal. While I think Robinson's probably the closest comp being discussed here, he's still more versatile and an all around better player. I'll give you that it helps he's on a much better team that can hide his weaknesses and the Mavs might be able to do that to an extent with Bertans, but Robinson's position is more likely to get a help defender whereas Bertans is more apt to be the help defender.
Let's examine your points here:
Your initial issue was that Bertans is overpaid and it sounds like you think Robinson is more deserving of his figure than Bertans. I am not going to include Bertans stats from this year because it appears the coaching change has impacted his play which is out of character for what he has been so lets compare both players coming into this year. I will also say that Robinson has also had a bad year shooting the ball this year and has not gone through a system change.
Davis Bertans:
Career 40% three point shooter
16 Million per
29 years old
15 ppg best year scoring average
6-10 Stretch 4
Duncan Robinson:
Career 40% three point shooter
18 Million per that escalates to 20 Million
27 years old
13 ppg best year scoring average
6-7 Wing
Robinson is practically the same player as Bertans but more of a wing type and is paid 2 million more. Your issue that Bertans is not tradeable is based on what?
Are you saying paying Duncan Robinson 20 million until the year 2025 which is the last year of his contract is better than paying Bertans 16 million in 2024 which happens to be a player option that you can get out of a year earlier?
I would venture to say that I would rather have Bertans who has fewer years and has shown more consistency over the same period as being a better shooter. I would also say that Bertans at his size is a more rare combination than Robinson. 6-10 stretch fours do not grow on trees. You can put him on the floor at the same time as Bullock and let Luka work.
Both contracts can be considered hard to move but I would much rather have Bertans who is paid less, a better career shooter and has 1 less year on his contract that has a player option and is a stretch four which is rare in the NBA and fits our system.
(02-11-2022, 11:13 PM)Omega_Supreme Wrote: [ -> ]Robinson is practically the same player as Bertans but more of a wing type and is paid 2 million more. Your issue that Bertans is not tradeable is based on what?
Do some research and see how his contract is viewed throughout the league. It was largely considered unmovable (cheaply) as evidenced by this trade (junk contract for junk contract) I don't think Robinson's contract is great either. I don't think THJ's contract is great either except it deescalates and he'll be fairly compensated in years three and four. While I think he and Robinson are the most similar, I don't agree with the assessment of them being largely the same player either. While shooting is really important, you need other tools in the toolbox. Bertans has none. Just because a player gets overpaid doesn't justify another similar player being overpaid. Value of a contract is pretty simple in my eyes. What does it takes to move it and what do you have to take back. Is that return negative, neutral or positive. Bertans is a clear negative in my eyes as you can't return value without including a positive asset. I'm fine if you want to lump Robinson in that same bucket but I know which player I'd rather have.
Further, not all bad contracts are created equal. Overpaying your own guy and the competency of your front office comes into play as does where your team is at in their building process towards a championship caliber team. Beyond the location, it's what separates the great organizations from the likes of the Mavericks.
Just from the first page of Google results for worst NBA contracts. And considering how often Bertans appears with the likes of Supermax contacts is impressive:
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2952...his-season
https://www.thescore.com/nba/news/2192936
https://www.thebiglead.com/posts/10-wors...fts37c97px
https://fadeawayworld.net/nba/ranking-th...nba-season
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KL8oUkJjl2A (bonus laughs Bertans contract being referred to as the Ian Mahinmi slot).
That's coming from people watching him play and not just looking up basketball reference stats.
(02-11-2022, 11:49 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]Do some research and see how his contract is viewed throughout the league. It was largely considered unmovable (cheaply) as evidenced by this trade (junk contract for junk contract) I don't think Robinson's contract is great either. I don't think THJ's contract is great either except it deescalates and he'll be fairly compensated in years three and four. While I think he and Robinson are the most similar, I don't agree with the assessment of them being largely the same player either. While shooting is really important, you need other tools in the toolbox. Bertans has none. Just because a player gets overpaid doesn't justify another similar player being overpaid. Value of a contract is pretty simple in my eyes. What does it takes to move it and what do you have to take back. Is that return negative, neutral or positive. Bertans is a clear negative in my eyes as you can't return value without including a positive asset. I'm fine if you want to lump Robinson in that same bucket but I know which player I'd rather have.
Further, not all bad contracts are created equal. Overpaying your own guy and the competency of your front office comes into play as does where your team is at in their building process towards a championship caliber team. Beyond the location, it's what separates the great organizations from the likes of the Mavericks.
Just from the first page of Google results for worst NBA contracts. And considering how often Bertans appears with the likes of Supermax contacts is impressive:
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2952...his-season
https://www.thescore.com/nba/news/2192936
https://www.thebiglead.com/posts/10-wors...fts37c97px
https://fadeawayworld.net/nba/ranking-th...nba-season
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KL8oUkJjl2A (bonus laughs Bertans contract being referred to as the Ian Mahinmi slot).
That's coming from people watching him play and not just looking up basketball reference stats.
Yeah and I disagree with them.
Bertans is elite at something that fits very well with our best player which is he is a stretch big that can shoot it at a 40% clip. You are judging Bertans for how the league views him vs. how we should view him in our system. He is not going to be used like he was in Washington this year. His ability to stretch the floor is an important key in our offense that helps open the court for Luka.
You are then bringing up Bertans can only shoot well duh, yes he is not being brought in to be a multi level scorer. Duncan Robinson is not a multi level scorer either.
For some reason you keep judging Bertans with how the league views him vs. how the Mavs view him which is odd because he fits our system and has the useful skillset to compliment our superstar.
That is a very important factor that you continue to ignore.
Bertans fits Luka's strengths and that means more to us than it does the rest of the league because Luka is on our team.
If Bertans is a bust then so be it but you are casting a judgement on the guy before he has even suited up.
SMH
(02-12-2022, 01:04 AM)Omega_Supreme Wrote: [ -> ]For some reason you keep judging Bertans with how the league views him vs. how the Mavs view him which is odd because he fits our system and has the useful skillset to compliment our superstar.
SMH
I'm judging him by the views of people that watch him play, not running to basketball reference for stats to try and be right. You all asked why I view it as a bad contract, there is why. It was ridiculously easy to find those. Want more? Better yet, provide examples of outside sources saying he's on a good or neutral contract. What good has the Mavericks evaluations (view) done to surround our superstar with talent? Lot's of people disagree with you is what I'm pointing out. It's not just me. So shake your head all you want and just make sure you do the same while the MBT continue their ineptitude and waste more years of Luka's career. Or maybe I should trust the views of message board poster Omega_Supreme over countless examples that opine the contrary and do so for a living.
And for the record, I hope you right. I hope the MBT are right. The track record of the latter gives me very little hope.
(02-12-2022, 01:19 AM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]I'm judging him by the views of people that watch him play, not running to basketball reference for stats to try and be right. You all asked why I view it as a bad contract, there is why. It was ridiculously easy to find those. Want more? Better yet, provide examples of outside sources saying he's on a good or neutral contract. What good has the Mavericks evaluations (view) done to surround our superstar with talent? Lot's of people disagree with you is what I'm pointing out. It's not just me. So shake your head all you want and just make sure you do the same while the MBT continue their ineptitude and waste more years of Luka's career. Or maybe I should trust the views of message board poster Omega_Supreme over countless examples that opine the contrary and do so for a living.
And for the record, I hope you right. I hope the MBT are right. The track record of the latter gives me very little hope.
LOL now you are saying stats don't matter of course they do. It tells you what you are getting and you are just ignoring them to fit your narrative.
So yeah you are judging him on a small sample size after a coaching change vs. the larger sample size that shows he is a career 40% three point shooter so yes you have obvious bias. He is being paid to shoot not be a multi level scorer.
As I pointed out to you above from the Robinson comparison, shooters get paid in that range so its not an overpay.
Joe Harris is in the same range of money.
Duncan Robinson is in the same range of money.
Buddy Hield is the same range of money.
So again, how is it an overpay when I just provided you examples of guys with the same skillset that makes the same range of money. Bertans is in the same wheelhouse as each of those guys in career three point shooting.
I do not claim to know what he will be in Dallas but I disagree with you labeling him an overpay which I debunked on the average rate for shooters at his level.
There is a better percentage that KP may have another knee injury than Bartans not getting back to his career shooting form. The sample size is in my favor there and its clear you would rather take a chance on KP's knees than what we got in return.
Again buy the fools gold man, I am done with the KP okie doke.