MavsBoard

(02-11-2022, 12:18 PM)Chicagojk Wrote: [ -> ]This is what I keep on coming back to.  I understand posters who wanted a clean break from KP.  I get it.  I wasn't quite there yet, but had made posts the last few weeks that I had my doubts if it was going to work out for him here.

So now he is gone....now what?   The Mavs are still asset poor.....and now desperate.   As you state above, Dallas is going to be deficient in most trade packages when good players hit the market.    Other teams have more stuff.  I still think this summer or next trade deadline they can offer picks and pick swaps for an all in move.  But is this team ready for an all in move now?  For instance, if you went all in for John Collins, is this team built ready for a championship?  It would really help if that star player said he wants to go to Dallas.  It may give us a shot.   It just feels like we are two really good players away.   I can see us getting 1 with an all in move.  How do we get the other?  A lot of smart teams out there too.

From the previous starting lineup of Luka, JB, DFS, Kleber, KP, the weakest starter was Kleber.  Now 2 bench players are manning the 4/5 Powell and Kleber, which will move Kleber or Powell to the 5 and DFS to the 4.  This team becomes much worse defensively and will lose a lot of rebounds.  It also forces Luka to work harder, with more responsibility to score and rebound.  Last night's 51 point game is a perfect example.  And you are expecting Luka to play super defense.  He was gassed.  

The team was one PF/C away from contention and now we are 2 steps away from being 1 step away from that.

IMHO, anyone could have made this trade. A majority of posters here could have been on the Mavs payroll and done this deal, especially when you account for throwing in a draft pick. It's a pretty low bar - but spin it however you like. Guys in leadership positions are supposed to exceed expectations for deals like this. Get a pick back instead of including one - at least that is a positive asset. But reclamation projects, old guys, friend-of-friends deals are what the Mavs seem to keep coming back to. It's like they want to find that miracle and be able to show everyone they're the smartest guy in the room. But let's go back to one of Mark's mantras of "there's a fool in every meeting so look around the room and if you can't identify the fool, you're the fool".

I think the Mavs continue to circle the drain on being the fool by not maximizing the draft, being realistic and critical about their and other's players, and understanding the fundamentals of asset management.

HOPE IS NOT A STRATEGY

(02-11-2022, 12:27 PM)haveitall Wrote: [ -> ]From the previous starting lineup of Luka, JB, DFS, Kleber, KP, the weakest starter was Kleber.  Now 2 bench players are manning the 4/5 Powell and Kleber, which will move Kleber or Powell to the 5 and DFS to the 4.  This team becomes much worse defensively and will lose a lot of rebounds.  It also forces Luka to work harder, with more responsibility to score and rebound.  Last night's 51 point game is a perfect example.  And you are expecting Luka to play super defense.  He was gassed.  

The team was one PF/C away from contention and now we are 2 steps away from being 1 step away from that.

Wow! That's really reaching. 

We have no idea how either player will get played under Kidd. We have no idea how minutes will be distributed. And I can't believe anyone actually thought that we were one PF/C away from contention. Especially since our current PF/C position was a merry-go-round with KPs constant absence.

At first I was still a little surprised that we wouldn't have taken the Raptors deal as more of a salary dump but when you start realizing that we're not going to have cap space with those expirings anyway it makes a little more sense.  If we don't have cap space once Dragic's contract runs out then what are we replacing him with?  At lease this way we'll have these contracts to include in trades a season or two from now whereas if we did the raptors trade after this year we'd probably be left with nothing.

There's obviously value to that pick the raptors were including but we know how our front office views first round picks more as trade assets than anything else and they seem more than willing to wait until the 2023 picks conveys to build those assets back up and now we actually will have players to pair those picks with as they start to expire.

(02-11-2022, 12:18 PM)Chicagojk Wrote: [ -> ]So now he is gone....now what?   The Mavs are still asset poor.....and now desperate.

They were asset poor before the trade. They still are. 

KP was not an asset, clearly. I doubt he will ever be one again, and any chance he has to be one depends on this entire organization catering to him in all sorts of ways that seem counterproductive to the team trying to succeed on the court (to the extent they're currently able). 

How desperate they are is a matter we can debate, but I don't think there's any argument to be made that they became more desperate as a result of this trade. If anything, moving forward from here got easier, so you could make the argument that this was them finally realizing how quickly they need to get started fixing everything. 

There was a mirage of belief that Luka/KP were just magically going to figure out how to be the sum of two star players, and now it's gone. That's it, from my pov. 

If the Luka/KP pairing was something that ever could have been successful, then the Mavs really messed up yesterday. Personally, I think there was a 0% chance of that.

(02-11-2022, 12:18 PM)Chicagojk Wrote: [ -> ]So now he is gone....now what?   The Mavs are still asset poor.....and now desperate.   As you state above, Dallas is going to be deficient in most trade packages when good players hit the market.    Other teams have more stuff.  I still think this summer or next trade deadline they can offer picks and pick swaps for an all in move.  But is this team ready for an all in move now?  For instance, if you went all in for John Collins, is this team built ready for a championship?  It would really help if that star player said he wants to go to Dallas.  It may give us a shot.   It just feels like we are two really good players away.   I can see us getting 1 with an all in move.  How do we get the other?  A lot of smart teams out there too.

Exactly. Even if Mavs trade one of the big contract bench guys (THJ, Dinwiddie, Bertans), they will have two left. 

I think Mavs FO is drastically worse than top FOs in the league. Look at Miami. In 2019 they had 130 mil locked up in the likes of James Johnson, Whiteside, Olynik and Tyler Johnson. They were a tax team with limited assets. With a series of moves they SnT for Butler than they add Lowry. With a simple move of rarely played second rounder they created flexibility to trade 2 FRP (before they couldn't trade any). A move that showed how Mavs inability to trade 2022 is only in their heads. Mavs are accepting inflexibility as a fact for two seasons because they owe one protected FRP. Look what Bkn and Clippers did. Chicago sold RFA Markkanen that everyone knew wants to leave them, for FRP and a useful bench guy. Mavs dumped Richardson for TPE which will likely not be used, Boston got Derrick White for him and a FRP in the twenties. For three years Mavs have showed zero imagination or out of the box thinking to improve the roster with the limited assets. For three years they failed to add a single solid starter. Like third banana level guy and they had max cap space twice in this time. I am so dissapointed...

(02-11-2022, 12:43 PM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: [ -> ]At first I was still a little surprised that we wouldn't have taken the Raptors deal as more of a salary dump but when you start realizing that we're not going to have cap space with those expirings anyway it makes a little more sense.  If we don't have cap space once Dragic's contract runs out then what are we replacing him with?  At lease this way we'll have these contracts to include in trades a season or two from now whereas if we did the raptors trade after this year we'd probably be left with nothing.

There's obviously value to that pick the raptors were including but we know how our front office views first round picks more as trade assets than anything else and they seem more than willing to wait until the 2023 picks conveys to build those assets back up and now we actually will have players to pair those picks with as they start to expire.

That is certainly true. But a smart and capable FO would move Dragic for a longer contract (teams usually pay a premium to dump more money) and keep the pick. Who knows, perhaps even a deal Mavs are hoping to reach in the summer would be on the table for Dragic expiring. 

Lets just look at trades with big expiring contracts from this TDL. Dragic and that pick could get us McCullom and Nance, for example. Or LeVert (better than Dinwiddie on a better contract). Or we could get Powell and RoCo package and keep the pick. All of these examples are miles better than the Dinwiddie-Bertans combination, imho.

Count me in on the group of guys who would have taken the TOR package. 

This doesn’t get stated enough: trading for picks doesn’t mean you’re not trying to win.

At draft night the additional pick would have been a big help in trying to put together a trade for a nr 2 guy. Now we’re doing what? Rehab Dinwiddie & Bertans? They’ll never be as useful in a trade as a 1st round pick.

We have developed an absurd stance on draft assets in this organization. It’s almost like they’re actively trying to negotiate the picks out of their deals. It’s more than disturbing at this point, they need a reality check. 

But once again: we’re used to this for years so why are we even wasting our time. 

I almost look forward to the day Luka leaves this mess behind. I’d be genuinely happy for him. He deserves better. And I could finally move on, it really hasn’t been fun following the Mavs in a long time.

(02-11-2022, 12:55 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]But a smart and capable FO would move Dragic for a longer contract (teams usually pay a premium to dump more money) and keep the pick. Who knows, perhaps even a deal Mavs are hoping to reach in the summer would be on the table for Dragic expiring. 

This is a pretty slick idea. Maybe it was possible, maybe not. 

I agree, it would've been an improvement, even if they ended up with the same players, as @"Mavs2021" illustrated earlier, with the pick...if it was possible.

I think it's true that this organization has a history of undervaluing draft picks.

(02-11-2022, 01:06 PM)JamesConway912 Wrote: [ -> ]Rehab Dinwiddie & Bertans? They’ll never be as useful in a trade as a 1st round pick.

Green was a first round pick, and he may never play more than 20 mpg.

I might have taken the Toronto deal as well, but we will never know if that deal was completely sewed up by both teams. I can complain about the FO as much as anyone, but keeping KP around really doesn't seem like a solution.

(02-11-2022, 01:06 PM)JamesConway912 Wrote: [ -> ]Count me in on the group of guys who would have taken the TOR package. 

This doesn’t get stated enough: trading for picks doesn’t mean you’re not trying to win.

At draft night the additional pick would have been a big help in trying to put together a trade for a nr 2 guy. Now we’re doing what? Rehab Dinwiddie & Bertans? They’ll never be as useful in a trade as a 1st round pick.

We have developed an absurd stance on draft assets in this organization. It’s almost like they’re actively trying to negotiate the picks out of their deals. It’s more than disturbing at this point, they need a reality check. 

But once again: we’re used to this for years so why are we even wasting our time. 

I almost look forward to the day Luka leaves this mess behind. I’d be genuinely happy for him. He deserves better. And I could finally move on, it really hasn’t been fun following the Mavs in a long time.

Which is made even weirder when you think, shouldn't the team that loves putting picks into trades LOVE the idea of getting picks back in trades so they can figure out how to ship them out again, especially when the opportunity presents itself?

I think all of the following is true:

1) the Mavericks have a long history of including picks in situations where they shouldn't have.

2) the Mavericks don't often demonstrate that they value the chance to use draft picks by actually drafting players, and that's problematic. 

3) But, the people who freak out when the picks go out claim that they would rather draft players. Then, later, they complain about not having them to deal as assets in trades, pointing to the idea (maybe rightfully so) that a 1st, even a late one, is more valuable in a trade than a Dinwiddie or a Bertans. I'm not sure that's true if all goes well with Dinwiddie (yuck, I can't believe I'm having to defend a player I dislike so much) but it certainly could be true if things don't go well for him here. 

4) And, when that pick gets moved in that OTHER deal, those same people will complain that it was included, knowing full-well they argued for it being valued at this time specifically to be used as a trade asset. 

What does it all mean? Imo, the problem is choosing the right targets. Case in point: if Luka/KP would've been a fit, we would not still care about those two firsts they gave up. It was objectively a mistake, in hindsight, but there ARE instances when first round picks get included that teams don't regret afterwords, obviously. 

All of this anger was an inevitability once it became clear that the Porzingis maneuver was a dud. They sold the farm to get him. The vast majority of us were excited at the time, and tbh, most of us thought the Mavs got a steal. Most of the NBA community did, too. All of us, and all of them, were incorrect. That's the bottom line. That's what to grieve over, here. 

I definitely hope that the next several years make us feel like the Mavs start to treat assets with more care and value the details more. I get the skepticism over that, and share it. 

But I'm sorry - I think the team is better off having this mess behind them, by literally any means necessary. Really, I do.

(02-11-2022, 12:55 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]That is certainly true. But a smart and capable FO would move Dragic for a longer contract (teams usually pay a premium to dump more money) and keep the pick. Who knows, perhaps even a deal Mavs are hoping to reach in the summer would be on the table for Dragic expiring. 

Lets just look at trades with big expiring contracts from this TDL. Dragic and that pick could get us McCullom and Nance, for example. Or LeVert (better than Dinwiddie on a better contract). Or we could get Powell and RoCo package and keep the pick. All of these examples are miles better than the Dinwiddie-Bertans combination, imho.

Feels like Dragic basically said I'm not going to play unless it's for X teams so in the Dragic case you need the other team to both have the longer contract that you're seeking and also be willing to buy Dragic out, which is what the Raptors had to throw in a first for anyway so I don't think that the options you're assuming were out there were a sure thing in this case but I see your point.

(02-11-2022, 01:33 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I think all of the following is true:

1) the Mavericks have a long history of including picks in situations where they shouldn't have.

2) the Mavericks don't often demonstrate that they value the chance to use draft picks by actually drafting players, and that's problematic. 

3) But, the people who freak out when the picks go out claim that they would rather draft players. Then, later, they complain about not having them to deal as assets in trades, pointing to the idea (maybe rightfully so) that a 1st, even a late one, is more valuable in a trade than a Dinwiddie or a Bertans. I'm not sure that's true if all goes well with Dinwiddie (yuck, I can't believe I'm having to defend a player I dislike so much) but it certainly could be true if things don't go well for him here. 

4) And, when that pick gets moved in that OTHER deal, those same people will complain that it was included, knowing full-well they argued for it being valued at this time specifically to be used as a trade asset. 

What does it all mean? Imo, the problem is choosing the right targets. Case in point: if Luka/KP would've been a fit, we would not still care about those two firsts they gave up. It was objectively a mistake, in hindsight, but there ARE instances when first round picks get included that teams don't regret afterwords, obviously. 

All of this anger was an inevitability once it became clear that the Porzingis maneuver was a dud. They sold the farm to get him. The vast majority of us were excited at the time, and tbh, most of us thought the Mavs got a steal. Most of the NBA community did, too. All of us, and all of them, were incorrect. That's the bottom line. That's what to grieve over, here. 

I definitely hope that the next several years make us feel like the Mavs start to treat assets with more care and value the details more. I get the skepticism over that, and share it. 

But I'm sorry - I think the team is better off having this mess behind them, by literally any means necessary. Really, I do.

Moving on from KP is the right move.  If the Toronto talks are true, I just don't have faith in MBT2.0...at all.

I get what you are saying about people arguing out of the both sides of their mouths, so to speak.  But everyone is just armchair GM'ing at this point so it's unrealistic for a poster to have consistent stance and methodology.   

The frustration is how the Mavericks operate as they don't do a lot well from a team building standpoint.  We only seem to have one pillar as a strength for what is required for team building:  drafting, trading, recruiting, asset management, development/retention.  The last being what we are best at.  All the rest are highly suspect.  

2011 is the best and worst thing that ever happened to the Mavericks.  Dirk got his chip but it affirmed that Mark Cuban was in fact the smartest guy in the room.  We squandered a few years of Dirk's prime and it just seems like Mark and company never learn there lesson and keep repeating the same mistakes.  Now the sand slipping through our fingers isn't a late prime superstar, but instead a 22 year old kid.

(02-11-2022, 01:58 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]The frustration is how the Mavericks operate as they don't do a lot well from a team building standpoint.  We only seem to have one pillar as a strength for what is required for team building:  drafting, trading, recruiting, asset management, development/retention.  The last being what we are best at.  All the rest are highly suspect.  

SUPER great point, and super clear way of wording it. I agree. 

I guess I just don't view this deal (to desperately try to get out from under a huge mistake of the past decision makers) as an indication that all of that will definitely not improve. I get that Cuban is still here and we have reason to believe it was all his fault in the past. Why would anything change, right? I get that, and share that skepticism. 

I just think I see a glimmer of change here and there, and I think there's a possibility that the upcoming moves (what they do from here) might be solid, and maybe surprisingly solid. After all, I would've bet $1 million that I don't have on the idea that Kidd was going to suck as a coach, but Cuban/Harrison seem to have gotten that right. 

I honestly feel in my bones that the Mavs simply admitting that KP had to go, no matter what, is encouraging. Only in the most mild sense of the word, but still.

KL. we are not saying either picks or players. We are saying a shrewd GM would have got a pick in addition to the players. Instead we not only did not get any but gave up a 2nd round pick. As someone said even my 18 year old can negotiate deals like that.  

Many are also saying that Bertans even if regains his shooting touch it would most likely take a FRP to get rid of his contract. 

The key is  that this is not either or.  You can have both but as it was mentioned the Mavs have an allergy to asking for picks and it is frankly frustrating to watch.

(02-11-2022, 01:44 PM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: [ -> ]Feels like Dragic basically said I'm not going to play unless it's for X teams so in the Dragic case you need the other team to both have the longer contract that you're seeking and also be willing to buy Dragic out, which is what the Raptors had to throw in a first for anyway so I don't think that the options you're assuming were out there were a sure thing in this case but I see your point.

Indiana took injured expiring Rubio on similar contract. Safe to say they would be equally satisfied with Dragic.

Portland didn't care about the players, they wanted expiring contracts. In both deals. Dragic in that regard is better than Bledsoe who was used in Powell/RoCo deal.

(02-11-2022, 02:08 PM)hakeemfaan Wrote: [ -> ]Many are also saying that Bertans even if regains his shooting touch it would most likely take a FRP to get rid of his contract. 

Who is saying this other than people on the internet? 

Bertans shooting at 40% from three like his career is on a solid contract. Shooting is a premium. His contract is smaller than THJ.

(02-11-2022, 02:21 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Who is saying this other than people on the internet? 

Bertans shooting at 40% from three like his career is on a solid contract. Shooting is a premium. His contract is smaller than THJ.

THJ, while overpaid, has a much larger skillset than Bertans.  Plenty of media folks have called Bertans' contract one of the worst in the league.

(02-11-2022, 02:08 PM)hakeemfaan Wrote: [ -> ]KL. we are not saying either picks or players. We are saying a shrewd GM would have got a pick in addition to the players. Instead we not only did not get any but gave up a 2nd round pick. As someone said even my 18 year old can negotiate deals like that.  

That´s it. If you taught Armchair GM in a math class under LOGIC in 6th grade, I think it would take the students roughly two weeks to grasp the broad general concepts of the math behind the salary cap, the draft and asset management. This is not even the advanced Armchair GM class. It´s the damn basic understandings of draft capital, trades, picks, contract value and length. Something Cuban cannot grasp after 20 years as an owner.

The 1st question in the math exam would be whether Dragic + 1st or Dinwiddie/Bertans is the better deal, because that´s such an easy question to answer that every student would answer it correctly, except Nico and Mark in the last row. It´s what you give the class to get their confidence up.