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I mean I'd love to get Hart but why would Portland do that. They'd be paying more money for the worse player.

(06-20-2022, 08:44 AM)Branduil Wrote: [ -> ]I mean I'd love to get Hart but why would Portland do that. They'd be paying more money for the worse player.

Yeah, I can't see it.  Hart on an expiring can get a first if he plays like he did last year.    He is also a real nice player.    He was a target for me last offseason.  He was restricted so it was tough to find a match.

(06-20-2022, 08:44 AM)Branduil Wrote: [ -> ]I mean I'd love to get Hart but why would Portland do that. They'd be paying more money for the worse player.

The overall NBA market tends to value good offensive players higher than good defensive ones. I'd argue that THJ's market value is higher than Josh Hart's.

(06-20-2022, 09:03 AM)DallasMaverick Wrote: [ -> ]The overall NBA market tends to value good offensive players higher than good defensive ones. I'd argue that THJ's market value is higher than Josh Hart's.

Josh Hart scored 20 ppg for Portland last season on 50/37 shooting. Small sample size but he was better than THJ on both ends of the court last year, and he's not coming off an injury.

(06-20-2022, 01:08 AM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]Lots of talk about finding the defensive wing, center, and even the direction of the roster.

So far when it comes to a defensive wing like others have said it's going to be really hard to find any sort of consistent minutes for this new guy with Hardaway and even Green on the roster. 

We've done some breakdowns before but I want to give a rough restatement before we talk about adding this wing we need to cut minutes anyways. 

Luka(35), JB (30), Dinwiddie (27), Bullock (30), DFS (33), Maxi (25), Wood (28-30?) is 210 minutes there already. We have 38 mins to split among Green, THJ, Powell, Bertans, and Frank. Add in the supposed Dragic connection as well. Assume Powell, Bertans, and Frank and even Dragic are DNP's every night unless there's an injury report, that's still just 19 mins a game for both Green and THJ. Not ideal. 

Getting another guy to fill this wing role just isn't going to happen with that kind of minute distribution. Especially if we're trying to develop Green into something more, which will require minutes. Looking at the fact the Mavs stated they're looking for a wing still, this feels like it almost guarantees that we're going to trade THJ to me.

But onto a list of guys that I really like for the wing we're supposedly looking for:

• Joe Ingles-Dude is a vet, is savvy, and has connections on the team already. This hinges on him being ready to start the next season healthy, and the jury is out if he can even still perform, but I think he can be had for the TPMLE and he brings the feistiness every team needs.
  
• PJ Tucker- kind of a pipe dream, he's the ideal guy. Others have already mentioned how we'd need to money-whip him for it to make sense. I'm honestly ok with throwing 3/20 at him as long as he comes here.
  
• Kyle Anderson- Slowmo as a 3rd wing off the bench is a luxury. He's long, solid defender, that can sometimes hit a three. We could do worse. 
  
• Either of the Martin twins- both are solid forwards that are fine riding a bench. And both could probably be had for a minimum contract
  
• Thad Young- Another ideal fit. I really like him next to Wood as he can guard the perimeter and even bigger bodies.
  
• Nic Batum- Another pipedream that might be already dead given that he's already stated how he wants to stay with the Clips, but figured I'd mention him here to cover the bases. 
  

One trade target I think that could make sense is Josh Hart. Dude is a rebounding machine and is fine coming off the bench. Portland is desperate for talent in their weird 1 year rebuild plan, and Timmy would make sense next to Dame there. This mostly is predicated on the idea that POR is going to have a tough time rebuilding on the fly and would be motivated to accumulate as much above average talent as possible when they inevitably miss on all the big fish. 


I also am incredibly intrigued by Dan's idea of splitting either THJ or SD into 2 smaller contracts in an attempt to save money. I think that's a viable strategy and am sort of convinced the next move will mimic the general framework of that idea. I don't think Dinwiddie is realistically available though, as I think he's core to what the Mavs are trying to do and there aren't much better creators available to replace him right now. 


THJ for Hart works straight up, and saves the Mavs 7 mil in the process. Getting Hart gets the Mavs their defensive minded wing, and allows the TP-MLE to be used on a center, whoever that may be. This move also maintains the amount of current roster spots available, thus letting us keep Pinson, and add the elusive Slovenian Dragon the Mavs have been hunting for the last 2 years.

That's a good list.  I would probably add Porter and Boucher to it.

Love the Hart trade idea.  I doubt Portland does that though.  Gary Trent is another guy I would be interested in.  I could probably be convinced to include Green in either of those deals.  That would clean up our wing minutes distributions.

I do think there are a few more minutes left for the wing backups than outlined above, but minutes are definitely needing to be part of the planning.

I think the Mavs will continue with the 1 BIG, 2 WING, 2 POINT setup that works for them.

BIG (3-4) - 48 mins - Wood / Maxi essentially split the 48. Powell may get a few of the 48 and will step in when there's an injury or rest day.

Observation: Not sure there's a route to a 4th big that's helpful. If another big is sought as a free agent, they aren't likely to get minutes very often, so it will be hard to sell a good free agent to come and rarely play with those 3 all here. The one exception might be a crusty veteran traditional center on minimum who can be used situationally and won't have expectations for minutes. But that's Boban the 2nd, and we saw how that went. If another big is sought via trade (presumably with DP outgoing), that sounds like a path to an unhappy camper who is a good center but gets few minutes. In theory Wood or Maxi could play PF to open some minutes, but that won't be enough to make a good player happy, and I think their minutes for a big wing who can shoot will go to Bertans (who could also be an emergency big). 

POINT (4) - 96 mins - Luka / Brunson / Dinwiddie split the 96. Dragic may get a few of the 96 and will step in when there's an injury or rest day. While another player might be added to develop or in case of injury, Franky or Green may be that emergency guy.

CHEERING (1) - 0 mins - Pinson. It is what it is.

WINGS (6-7) - 96 mins. DFS / Bullock will get 60-65. The other 31-36 go to others. So far, those others are Bertans, THJ, Green, Franky. On paper, maybe Bertans gets 15-20 (the only big wing backup, and presumably the most lethal shooter), THJ gets 20-25 (good scorer, former starter, etc), Green or Franky get a few here and there. But as previously noted, all of that doesn't fit into the minutes available.

Observation: Not sure how they split the backup minutes, but adding a free agent wing doesn't make sense - there's no minutes. So to have a different 3rd wing to rotate with DFS / Bullock, it would mean THJ has to go, and maybe Bertans too. Their contracts are too big to waive, so if you want to alter the wings, it will almost certainly take a trade. (If I can tell Nico to create some more magic, he keeps the top 7 on the roster and adds Collins via trade.)

(06-20-2022, 11:04 AM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ](If I can tell Nico to create some more magic, he keeps the top 7 on the roster and adds Collins via trade.)

If he pulls that off, Nico Magic may officially take over for Luka Magic.

(06-20-2022, 11:04 AM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]So to have a different 3rd wing to rotate with DFS / Bullock, it would mean THJ has to go, and maybe Bertans too.

Exactly my analysis as well. Someone significant needs to be outgoing if they are adding another wing.

(06-20-2022, 11:04 AM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]If I can tell Nico to create some more magic, he keeps the top 7 on the roster and adds Collins via trade.

(06-20-2022, 01:08 AM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]Lots of talk about finding the defensive wing, center, and even the direction of the roster.

or:

• Joe Ingles-Dude is a vet, is savvy, and has connections on the team already. This hinges on him being ready to start the next season healthy, and the jury is out if he can even still perform, but I think he can be had for the TPMLE and he brings the feistiness every team needs.
  
• PJ Tucker- kind of a pipe dream, he's the ideal guy. Others have already mentioned how we'd need to money-whip him for it to make sense. I'm honestly ok with throwing 3/20 at him as long as he comes here.
  
• Kyle Anderson- Slowmo as a 3rd wing off the bench is a luxury. He's long, solid defender, that can sometimes hit a three. We could do worse. 
  
• Either of the Martin twins- both are solid forwards that are fine riding a bench. And both could probably be had for a minimum contract
  
• Thad Young- Another ideal fit. I really like him next to Wood as he can guard the perimeter and even bigger bodies.
  
• Nic Batum- Another pipedream that might be already dead given that he's already stated how he wants to stay with the Clips, but figured I'd mention him here to cover the bases. 
  

I think this is a good list.   If a big move doesn't present itself, I think I would be fine holding onto everything for now (but it isn't my money).   I have been focusing on bigger wings.  Ingles would be high on the list for me, but the injury is a big question mark.  I can totally see him playing important minutes in a playoff series and making big shots.  

I think all these guys are short term fixes, but can provide a nice bridge as Dallas looks for their big trade.

Edit- I am not sure who the Martin twins are.   Caleb brothers or Markieef brothers?  I typically stay away from the Heat guys.

(06-20-2022, 11:04 AM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]WINGS (6-7) - 96 mins. DFS / Bullock will get 60-65. The other 31-36 go to others. So far, those others are Bertans, THJ, Green, Franky. On paper, maybe Bertans gets 15-20 (the only big wing backup, and presumably the most lethal shooter), THJ gets 20-25 (good scorer, former starter, etc), Green or Franky get a few here and there. But as previously noted, all of that doesn't fit into the minutes available.

Observation: Not sure how they split the backup minutes, but adding a free agent wing doesn't make sense - there's no minutes. So to have a different 3rd wing to rotate with DFS / Bullock, it would mean THJ has to go, and maybe Bertans too. Their contracts are too big to waive, so if you want to alter the wings, it will almost certainly take a trade. (If I can tell Nico to create some more magic, he keeps the top 7 on the roster and adds Collins via trade.)

There are minutes open if you're willing to bench Bertans/Green/Frank. I have no issues doing that if someone better is available for the taxpayer MLE. I don't think it's feasible to trade Bertans at this point in his contract, but that doesn't mean he has to be part of an 8 man rotation.

We need to get past the idea that the Mavs cannot add another wing because they don´t have enough minutes. It´s not like the Mavs have an allstar wing that is beyond any doubt. If a team is relying on Bullock or DFS to play 40 minutes there is room for at least one more wing in the rotation. Even with THJ returning the Mavs would still lack a backup for DFS.
I am not concerned about minutes for fringe rotation players like Green or Frank. Development involves playing time but minutes need to be earned. Competition won´t hurt the team as long as the coaches can manage egos and find the right balance.

(06-20-2022, 11:58 AM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]We need to get past the idea that the Mavs cannot add another wing because they don´t have enough minutes. It´s not like the Mavs have an allstar wing that is beyond any doubt. If a team is relying on Bullock or DFS to play 40 minutes there is room for at least one more wing in the rotation. Even with THJ returning the Mavs would still lack a backup for DFS.
I am not concerned about minutes for fringe rotation players like Green or Frank. Development involves playing time but minutes need to be earned. Competition won´t hurt the team as long as the coaches can manage egos and find the right balance.

My personal opinion is this:

1) I do not think there is anyone available in free agency for the TMLE that will be "playoff rotation" worthy as MacMahon has stated. And I don't think there is anyone available who I think will be better suited for minutes than JG/FN. 

2) I think the Mavs will only be able to find a "playoff rotation" wing via trade and that likely one of their current top 8 guys would be outgoing in that. 

3) Competition is great and fine, but bring in youth, not some old, over-the-hill guy if you are using the TMLE on this.

(06-20-2022, 11:04 AM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]I do think there are a few more minutes left for the wing backups than outlined above, but minutes are definitely needing to be part of the planning.

I think the Mavs will continue with the 1 BIG, 2 WING, 2 POINT setup that works for them.

BIG (3-4) - 48 mins - Wood / Maxi essentially split the 48. Powell may get a few of the 48 and will step in when there's an injury or rest day.

Observation: Not sure there's a route to a 4th big that's helpful. If another big is sought as a free agent, they aren't likely to get minutes very often, so it will be hard to sell a good free agent to come and rarely play with those 3 all here. The one exception might be a crusty veteran traditional center on minimum who can be used situationally and won't have expectations for minutes. But that's Boban the 2nd, and we saw how that went. If another big is sought via trade (presumably with DP outgoing), that sounds like a path to an unhappy camper who is a good center but gets few minutes. In theory Wood or Maxi could play PF to open some minutes, but that won't be enough to make a good player happy, and I think their minutes for a big wing who can shoot will go to Bertans (who could also be an emergency big). 

POINT (4) - 96 mins - Luka / Brunson / Dinwiddie split the 96. Dragic may get a few of the 96 and will step in when there's an injury or rest day. While another player might be added to develop or in case of injury, Franky or Green may be that emergency guy.

CHEERING (1) - 0 mins - Pinson. It is what it is.

WINGS (6-7) - 96 mins. DFS / Bullock will get 60-65. The other 31-36 go to others. So far, those others are Bertans, THJ, Green, Franky. On paper, maybe Bertans gets 15-20 (the only big wing backup, and presumably the most lethal shooter), THJ gets 20-25 (good scorer, former starter, etc), Green or Franky get a few here and there. But as previously noted, all of that doesn't fit into the minutes available.

Observation: Not sure how they split the backup minutes, but adding a free agent wing doesn't make sense - there's no minutes. So to have a different 3rd wing to rotate with DFS / Bullock, it would mean THJ has to go, and maybe Bertans too. Their contracts are too big to waive, so if you want to alter the wings, it will almost certainly take a trade. (If I can tell Nico to create some more magic, he keeps the top 7 on the roster and adds Collins via trade.)

In the regular season I am guessing Powell gets more than a few spot minutes.  He is probably the backup big with Maxi spending more time at the 4 (as a big wing).  That means even less minutes available behind DFS/Bullock.  I expect Timmy to get the majority of those with Bertans and Green getting scraps.  I don't see any way Bertans gets 15-20.  He got less than 14 when there were plenty of minutes to be had.

You mention Bertans is too big to waive, but if we sign Brunson and add the tax MLE and argument could be made to stretch waive Bertans.  His third year is not guaranteed so I think you could do it over 7 years at around 5 mil per.  That would save a ton on the tax bill and open up some minutes.

I agree that sending out Timmy and/or Bertans makes the most sense, but its hard to come up with a trade involving those two that would address our issues on defense.  I like the Timmy for Hart idea, but I think we would have to add something to that and we don't have much to add.

Not sure why Collins would be a target at this point considering what his cost will be.  We already have a Collins clone in Wood and it would be doubling down on offense without really addressing defense.  This team is going to struggle to be a top 10 defense and replacing Bullock in the starting lineup with Collins would not really change that.

(06-20-2022, 11:58 AM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]We need to get past the idea that the Mavs cannot add another wing because they don´t have enough minutes. It´s not like the Mavs have an allstar wing that is beyond any doubt. If a team is relying on Bullock or DFS to play 40 minutes there is room for at least one more wing in the rotation. Even with THJ returning the Mavs would still lack a backup for DFS.
I am not concerned about minutes for fringe rotation players like Green or Frank. Development involves playing time but minutes need to be earned. Competition won´t hurt the team as long as the coaches can manage egos and find the right balance.

Agreed.  This isn't that hard if we don't attach dollars and draft status and strictly make this a meritocracy.  

Wood                                                                   
               Maxi                                    
DFS
               Big Wing
Bullock                                   
               THJ
Brunson
               Dinwiddie
Luka

From there, Powell, Dragic, Greenikina, and Bertans fill in specific roles as needed.  Maxi isn't a 3/4 and neither is THJ.  Taurean Prince is and so are some other people who likely fit that $6mm slot we have available.  There are some minutes to be had there.

(06-20-2022, 11:58 AM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]1 We need to get past the idea that the Mavs cannot add another wing because they don't have enough minutes.
2 It's not like the Mavs have an allstar wing that is beyond any doubt.

1  That's wrong. Minutes and likely role do matter if you want to get GOOD players to sign here.  
2  Let's be real, adding an "all-star wing" via free agency is not an option anyhow.

While we can argue that they MIGHT find a marginally more desirable wing than Bertans or THJ for the txMLE (then again, they might not), the reality is that, given the contracts and ability, they are not going to consign THJ and Bertans to the 10-minutes-or-less club -- and once you've given them even 10-15 each, there's not enough left to entice a good player to come aboard.

BTW, I'm not saying that THJ and Bertans MUST be the backup wings ...but only that any replacement would be coming as a result of a trade of at least one of those guys.

Another under-the-radar player worth a flier is Troy Brown Jr. Bulls likely rescind his qualifying offer ($7M+) making him an UFA. 

Versatile skillset on offense, has point forward ability. Solid defender w/ 6'11 wingspan. Only 22 years old, former #15 pick. 

TPMLE ($6M+) might be a little rich for him. Hollinger has him rated at a little over $4M AAV. 

Theoretically, Brown Jr. could play all the back-up SF minutes if THJ is moved or even back-up playmaker if Dinwiddie is moved (could also bring in Dragic to help).

(06-20-2022, 01:19 PM)Fuerza1 Wrote: [ -> ]Troy Brown Jr.

I like him as a developmental/reclamation project. But don't think he fits the stated "playoff rotation wing" priority.

(06-20-2022, 12:28 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]Agreed.  This isn't that hard if we don't attach dollars and draft status and strictly make this a meritocracy.  

Wood                                                                   
               Maxi                                    
DFS
               Big Wing
Bullock                                   
               THJ
Brunson
               Dinwiddie
Luka

From there, Powell, Dragic, Greenikina, and Bertans fill in specific roles as needed.  Maxi isn't a 3/4 and neither is THJ.  Taurean Prince is and so are some other people who likely fit that $6mm slot we have available.  There are some minutes to be had there.

This is 100% how I see it. Not sure we're right, as there seem to be plenty who don't agree with this, but this is absolutely what I would predict, and exactly where I feel the roster hole is, too. 

Depending on the quality of the player added, I could also see them starting at the 4, bumping DFS to the 3 and Bullock to the bench. I thinking that's the only possible way to add a starter, actually. At least until they've decided the core of this team needs a change. 

Also, "Greenikina!"

(06-20-2022, 12:28 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]Wood                                                                   
               Maxi                                    
DFS
               Big Wing
Bullock                                   
               THJ
Brunson
               Dinwiddie
Luka

I don't disagree with this at all. 

It is just my opinion that JC slots perfectly into the need/hole (though he would shuffle the starting lineup). 

And I know you have stated the Mavs do not have the ammo to get JC and you are probably right about that. But for whatever it is worth I would offer Maxi + RB (or THJ) + JG + picks for him. I think JC is absolutely worth giving up two of the top 8 for. I also think my offer would make ATL better than they are.