(02-03-2022, 05:07 PM)sliver91 Wrote: [ -> ]Can we trade our 22 FRP straight up after we made the pick with the knicks for our 23FRP?
We would have all our picks back for the right trade in the offseason…
We can actually do that right now. The reason we have to make our 22 pick before trading it is we don’t have picks in the next two future drafts (22 and 23). If we have 23, it is perfectly fine to not have 22.
BTW, if you do this with someone else’s 2023, it can’t be protected. It has to be a clean pick.
(02-03-2022, 05:10 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]We can actually do that right now. The reason we have to make our 22 pick before trading it is we don’t have picks in the next two future drafts (22 and 23). If we have 23, it is perfectly fine to not have 22.
BTW, if you do this with someone else’s 2023, it can’t be protected. It has to be a clean pick.
If Brunson wants too much, and the Knicks want him bad enough to send us back the 2023 pick, you would have to consider it if it meant possibly being able to trade for a guy like Collins using the 2022/2024 picks.
(02-03-2022, 05:41 PM)Dirknows Wrote: [ -> ]If Brunson wants too much, and the Knicks want him bad enough to send us back the 2023 pick, you would have to consider it if it meant possibly being able to trade for a guy like Collins using the 2022/2024 picks.
To me if it was guaranteed to get Collins in the same move trading Brunson, I'd do it.
I'd then try and do whatever to get CJ McCollum. We have to replace Brunson's creation somehow and McCollum is probably the best 2 guard that is realistic in getting.
(02-03-2022, 06:05 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]To me if it was guaranteed to get Collins in the same move trading Brunson, I'd do it.
I'd then try and do whatever to get CJ McCollum. We have to replace Brunson's creation somehow and McCollum is probably the best 2 guard that is realistic in getting.
I’ve heard some rumblings in the NBA world that McCollum is viewed as a negative asset by most teams. Not sure after trading Brunson what the Mavs would have to entice Portland, also the defense would be terrible.
P.S. I remember you from the old DB message boards, wondered where you all went. I went to Mavs moneyball but it’s not as active over there. Good to have found you all again.
Whatever the framework is for a LeVert/Turner deal, I think the Mavs should pursue that again. The Mavericks need additional rim protection beyond KP’s (since KP cannot be relied on) and another ball-handler that is wing-sized (since Brunson is consistently shut down by longer defenders). Even if this means routing Brunson AND Finney-Smith elsewhere, to have the proper trade value back to Indy, I do it. The Mavs could also end up with Dragic through buyout and totally remake their complementary playmakers around Luka.
Luka-LeVert-Bullock/DFS-Turner-Porzingis
With Dragic off the bench
(02-03-2022, 07:26 PM)VintagePejav2 Wrote: [ -> ]Whatever the framework is for a LeVert/Turner deal, I think the Mavs should pursue that again. The Mavericks need additional rim protection beyond KP’s (since KP cannot be relied on) and another ball-handler that is wing-sized (since Brunson is consistently shut down by longer defenders). Even if this means routing Brunson AND Finney-Smith elsewhere, to have the proper trade value back to Indy, I do it. The Mavs could also end up with Dragic through buyout and totally remake their complementary playmakers around Luka.
Luka-LeVert-Bullock/DFS-Turner-Porzingis
With Dragic off the bench
I’m pretty sure Indy has been rather adamant about wanting at least 1 or 2 first round picks for Turner/LeVert. I would do that trade, but I doubt Rick of Indy’s GM would.
Zach Lowe made a comment on a podcast or two ago about teams worried about Turner's injury. I don't think he expanded on his thoughts if this was due to him not being back this year or more of a concern moving forward. Anyway, big guys and feet always get me concerned. We already have one big who has injury concerns. I personally think KP's upside is higher than Turners. Now, will KP live up to that? Don't know. Anyway, until Turner gets back on the court it may be tough for a team to trade for him.
(02-03-2022, 07:06 PM)Dirknows Wrote: [ -> ]I’ve heard some rumblings in the NBA world that McCollum is viewed as a negative asset by most teams. Not sure after trading Brunson what the Mavs would have to entice Portland, also the defense would be terrible.
P.S. I remember you from the old DB message boards, wondered where you all went. I went to Mavs moneyball but it’s not as active over there. Good to have found you all again.
Very glad you managed to find your way back! Hope you stick around!
I've seen rumors that McCollum isn't viewed very highly as well, especially since he's 30, coming off a collapsed lung, and doesn't defend. Which means a KP for McCollum package actually makes sense for both parties.
In an ideal world, we keep DFS off the table (though not mandatory), and try to do:
Brunson+THJ for Burks+Walker+ our 2023 FRP back
Then go to ATL and offer DFS+Maxi+1st+2nd for Collins
Then go to Portland and offer KP+ a filler contract (M.Brown, Burke, S.Broiwn)+ another 1st for McCollum+Nurkic.
Mavs new roster looks like:
Luka/Walker/Franky
McCollum/Burks/Green
Bullock/S.Brown
Collins/---/Chriss
Nurkic/Powell/Boban
Which besides for how freaking thin the PF position is, that's a squad. We could theoretically add Covington to that Portland trade if we added KP+ and greater 2M salary which would really round out the team in my own opinion. The lack of starting 3 and backup 4 is why I really would like to NOT trade DFS if we can help it. I just think that's the only attractive piece ATL would want in a Collins trade.
I don't see how he is a fit here and he is another center, but I would look to see if I could buy low on Nurkic. This team desperately needs someone who can score inside. The defense and fit is a concern, but I may consider moving Bullock for him, I think. Maybe it is just a half season rental and it doesn't work out at all. But it would be something I would consider if it was a buy low move.
(02-03-2022, 09:46 PM)RedFlag41 Wrote: [ -> ]I just like to share this link to a good analysis of Luka's defensive shortcomings:
https://youtu.be/FhaBWs-8_A0
Coach Nick is great.
Better team:
Porzingis + Brunson or Lillard + MLE (Nurkic, Favors, Ibaka, Zubac, Zeller, Bamba, Bryant RoLo, Biyombo).
I think that´s the trade the Mavs should aim for.
Let´s see how tight Lillard and Nico truly are. I think Brunson + Porzingis is very fair compensation. Shouldn´t need to add more than one 1st round pick to that package, so we still have some ammo left for another smaller trade like a Myles Turner or a back-up PG that can play some defense.
Doncic/Brown
Lillard/THJ
Bullock/Green
DFS/Kleber
Nurkic/Powell
Man, these last two losses have really bummed me out. I probably wouldn't feel that much better if we squeaked out that OKC game either. Leading up to those games, I felt like we were improving and had a shot at a top 4 seed. Not a true contender, but a team making progress and at least in range if they made a smart move or two or three over the next year/year and a half.
Maybe that is still true. But man, watching those games and feeling like both teams were comparable to us in talent is really depressing. As much as I love my Mavs, I may need to take a break tonight from the game. Not sure a late 10 PM start and seeing the Mavs floundering down the stretch will be good for my health.
Losing the rim protection of KP was the reason they lost the Orlando game, it was a freaking layup line out there.
(02-03-2022, 08:38 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]Very glad you managed to find your way back! Hope you stick around!
I've seen rumors that McCollum isn't viewed very highly as well, especially since he's 30, coming off a collapsed lung, and doesn't defend. Which means a KP for McCollum package actually makes sense for both parties.
In an ideal world, we keep DFS off the table (though not mandatory), and try to do:
Brunson+THJ for Burks+Walker+ our 2023 FRP back
Then go to ATL and offer DFS+Maxi+1st+2nd for Collins
Then go to Portland and offer KP+ a filler contract (M.Brown, Burke, S.Broiwn)+ another 1st for McCollum+Nurkic.
Mavs new roster looks like:
Luka/Walker/Franky
McCollum/Burks/Green
Bullock/S.Brown
Collins/---/Chriss
Nurkic/Powell/Boban
Which besides for how freaking thin the PF position is, that's a squad. We could theoretically add Covington to that Portland trade if we added KP+ and greater 2M salary which would really round out the team in my own opinion. The lack of starting 3 and backup 4 is why I really would like to NOT trade DFS if we can help it. I just think that's the only attractive piece ATL would want in a Collins trade.
I'm not sending DFS + Maxi + 2 firsts for Collins. That is the heart of our defense plus two firsts. I'm also not that interested in Collins next to a traditional center. I think to truly unlock his powers we need to put him next to a stretch 5 like KP or Maxi (and you have traded both away).
If we take Collins out of the mix, you could still do something like KP + Powell + Bullock for CJ + Nurkic + Covington and trade Brunson for our pick and a backup point. A starting lineup of Nurkic/Covington/DFS/Luka/CJ would still be really good and you have all of your picks to go in any direction you wanted.
(02-04-2022, 07:46 AM)Mavs2021 Wrote: [ -> ]Better team:
Porzingis + Brunson or Lillard + MLE (Nurkic, Favors, Ibaka, Zubac, Zeller, Bamba, Bryant RoLo, Biyombo).
I think that´s the trade the Mavs should aim for.
Let´s see how tight Lillard and Nico truly are. I think Brunson + Porzingis is very fair compensation. Shouldn´t need to add more than one 1st round pick to that package, so we still have some ammo left for another smaller trade like a Myles Turner or a back-up PG that can play some defense.
Doncic/Brown
Lillard/THJ
Bullock/Green
DFS/Kleber
Nurkic/Powell
I think you would need to add a lot of firsts (that we don't have) to that package. You would be better off trading Brunson for our pick in order to back the truck up. I don't see us being competitive in a Lillard sweepstakes.
(02-04-2022, 10:37 AM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not sending DFS + Maxi + 2 firsts for Collins. That is the heart of our defense plus two firsts. I'm also not that interested in Collins next to a traditional center. I think to truly unlock his powers we need to put him next to a stretch 5 like KP or Maxi (and you have traded both away).
If we take Collins out of the mix, you could still do something like KP + Powell + Bullock for CJ + Nurkic + Covington and trade Brunson for our pick and a backup point. A starting lineup of Nurkic/Covington/DFS/Luka/CJ would still be really good and you have all of your picks to go in any direction you wanted.
I agree with you that sending out DFS is tough in a Collins trade. But I just don't see Maxi getting that kind of value. Got to give something to get something right? Further, it's kind of moot, but in that proposed Collins trade I only sent out a single FRP, and a single second round pick.
Also why aren't you interested in playing Collins next to a traditional center? He shone next to Capela, who is the antithesis to KP on offense. They walked to the ECF (albeit a much easier road than usual) and there was never an issue playing those two together. Nurkic isn't a good shooter, and I'm not really interested in making him a long-term addition however. The real play would be to get Valanciunas who can do both.
Finally if you combine all those trades:
Mavs send out: Brunson+THJ+DFS+Maxi+KP+(M.Brown, Burke, S.Brown, Green)+ 2 FRP+ 1 second round pick
Mavs receive: Kemba+Burks+Collins+McCollum+Nurkic+2023 FRP
I think that's a net positive change. And also opens up a roster spot for the elusive Dragic folktale we've been hearing about but never actually seen exist.
Forgot to add, I actually like your final trade alot. It rocks the boat less, and still opens up our picks. I still think we need to get more value from Brunson than just our 2023 FRP I might add. We can trade with anyone with a 2023 pick and the rest of our picks get freed up the same.
Mavs2021 dream scenario of KP+Brunson for Lillard is an attractive one. I just think Portland wants a Harden like haul for him.
(02-04-2022, 10:33 AM)Dirknows Wrote: [ -> ]Losing the rim protection of KP was the reason they lost the Orlando game, it was a freaking layup line out there.
Not sure. The Mavs defense "peaked" when KP was in health and safety protocols. With dominant performances against teams like the Bulls or Warriors.
In the last five games the defense wasn´t close to that level. Even in the three games with KP. Against the Warriors they gave up 130pts (131.5 O-Rating), against the Pacers they gave up 105pts (106.1 O-Rating), against the Blazers they gave up 112pts (113.5 O-Rating).
Right in line with the numbers from the last two games. OKC scored 120pts (121.6 O-Rating). Magic scored 110 (112.9 O-Rating).
Prior to that the Mavs held opponents to less than 100pts in 10/14 games.
(02-04-2022, 10:48 AM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]I agree with you that sending out DFS is tough in a Collins trade. But I just don't see Maxi getting that kind of value. Got to give something to get something right? Further, it's kind of moot, but in that proposed Collins trade I only sent out a single FRP, and a single second round pick.
Also why aren't you interested in playing Collins next to a traditional center? He shone next to Capela, who is the antithesis to KP on offense. They walked to the ECF (albeit a much easier road than usual) and there was never an issue playing those two together. Nurkic isn't a good shooter, and I'm not really interested in making him a long-term addition however. The real play would be to get Valanciunas who can do both.
Finally if you combine all those trades:
Mavs send out: Brunson+THJ+DFS+Maxi+KP+(M.Brown, Burke, S.Brown, Green)+ 2 FRP+ 1 second round pick
Mavs receive: Kemba+Burks+Collins+McCollum+Nurkic+2023 FRP
I think that's a net positive change. And also opens up a roster spot for the elusive Dragic folktale we've been hearing about but never actually seen exist.
Forgot to add, I actually like your final trade alot. It rocks the boat less, and still opens up our picks. I still think we need to get more value from Brunson than just our 2023 FRP I might add. We can trade with anyone with a 2023 pick and the rest of our picks get freed up the same.
Mavs2021 dream scenario of KP+Brunson for Lillard is an attractive one. I just think Portland wants a Harden like haul for him.
I missed the second vs first. That makes it a more reasonable.
The reason I like Collins next to a stretch 5 is because he is at his most valuable as a P&R monster. He can't do a lot of that playing next to a traditional 5 (he staggers with Capella and does a lot of his offensive damage when Capella is out). He works well with Capella defensively because he can't protect the rim. He is not a 5. He is a lot like Powell defensively. Putting him with with KP or Maxi allows him to dominate the paint on offense (or stretch the defense when appropriate) and have rim protecting coverage on defense.
I share your concern regarding Nurkic here long term. I also agree that Brunson should net more than our first. If we send KP + Bullock for CJ + Covington then we could bring Robinson back for Brunson. He is younger, more healthy and a better fit than Nurkic. As part of that trade we could also send Brown for Quickly for a backup point.