MavsBoard

(04-07-2022, 01:30 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not quite willing to go that far, but I will say that one of the reasons I hated the trade is that it meant we would see significant minutes of single big Powell.  I expected that to be a complete disaster.  He has done surprisingly well defensively in that capacity to the point that I would probably lump him in the Bullock bucket.

Honestly, I look at the Maxi, Powell and Bullock similarly.  All are quality rotation players that are maybe stretched just a little thin right now due to necessity.  Next year with some big help (preferably a starting center) and Green taking the next step will allow all three to settle in to more comfortable fitting roles.

This is about exactly how I see it. I will say, when Maxi is fresh at the beginning of the year though, he's kindof a monster on D being able to guard the perimeter AND the basket. I so want to find a lower minute role for him here. I would absolutely LOVE to get back to those MK/DP/JJB years of bench domination!

Maybe the best way to get super Maxi on defense during the playoffs is to only play him starting in April every season.

(04-07-2022, 01:35 PM)Jakeospikez Wrote: [ -> ]Is Josh Green not in the top 8 or something? He's definitely a plus defender. If there's a stat that says he isn't, it's likely a really bad stat.

Powell's definitely been a plus defender in Kidd's system. Perfect fit for him.

I would say the order is:

Luka
DFS
Brunson
Din
Powell
Maxi 
Bullock
Green

Well shit, I guess he is in the top 8.  This team is thin right now.  With THJ out, Bertans is the only remaining player of any worth.

Yes, Green is a plus defender.  He and Maxi are both coming off the bench, so we need some defense in that starting lineup.  Bullock is a good fit for that spot.

Kidd's defense is what makes Powell usable as a single big.  His P&R defense is really good, but he still struggles with rim protection, rebounding and post defense.  There are tradeoffs.

Here are the defensive rankings of the Mavs team based on RAPTOR, LEBRON, and EPM:

(04-07-2022, 01:27 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]And yet last year you harped on KP being a C that wasn’t a deterrent at the rim which if I remember correctly you stated was the most important job of the C. I agree that he’s good enough to be a switchable defender on the perimeter and it is an important quality. Just think your definition changed a bit for expectations over the year.

Well, last year, KP wasn't good at anything on the defensive end. I thought that was a sign of permanent decline, and was wrong. I've said that about 100 times. 

But, in regards to the comparison, there are different types of centers. KP was much better protecting the rim from the weak side this year, no doubt. He's better than Powell at that, no doubt. Personally, I don't think he's a difference maker in that area like a Gobert, but...yes, much better than Powell and much better than last year. If he's not making a difference in areas of strength, really, and for my money, he wasn't, then what's the upside to putting up with the things he can't do? 

And as far as what Powell does well, yeah it's a little about switching onto perimeter players, but honestly, that's not what I think he's great at doing. Better than Porzingis by a MILE, but not great. He shows at the right time on those screen and rolls, and has the foot speed to recover in time to ruin the action. He cuts off drives in a help capacity and then recovers to take passes away. I mean honestly I could write four paragraphs on all of the things he does well. I think he's a great defender, myself. Very, very SMART.

(04-07-2022, 01:44 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]Kidd's defense is what makes Powell usable as a single big.  His P&R defense is really good, but he still struggles with rim protection, rebounding and post defense.  There are tradeoffs.

Would you prefer a more traditional defensive center and system to the current switching center and system? 

I know we'd all like a center who could do all of the above (switch, rim protect, roll, pass, score inside, rebound), but I think it's clear from our talks about who actually fits that description that those animals are quite rare.

(04-07-2022, 01:52 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]Would you prefer a more traditional defensive center and system to the current switching center and system? 

I know we'd all like a center who could do all of the above (switch, rim protect, roll, pass, score inside, rebound), but I think it's clear from our talks about who actually fits that description that those animals are quite rare.

I think you can play guys like Holmes, Turner, Capela the same way you play Powell.  They may not be at Powell's level at P&R defense, but they do the rest better, and can be played in drop coverage when it makes sense.  I think that is the kind of player we should be looking for.

(04-07-2022, 02:01 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I think you can play guys like Holmes, Turner, Capela the same way you play Powell.  They may not be at Powell's level at P&R defense, but they do the rest better, and can be played in drop coverage when it makes sense.  I think that is the kind of player we should be looking for.

I agree with this, but only if they do "the rest" better enough to be difference makers in those areas. 

With Turner, I'm convinced...on defense. He's better than KP at "the rest" and yes, better than most at doing some of what's working with Powell. My concern with him is that I'm not sure he can do what Powell does on offense. I think we might be signing up for another ill-fitting piece there, ala Porzingis. Not sure, mind you, just concerned. I'd be excited about giving this a try if the stars align and it becomes realistically possible. 

Capela would be great. But, for how much longer? 

Holmes...not even sure he's a good player, at this point. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't.

...also regarding Powell vs "another center", folks don't usually include Powell's passing in the equation. But his passing is a big part of our offense.

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(04-07-2022, 02:01 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I think you can play guys like Holmes, Turner, Capela the same way you play Powell. 

Wouldn't Turner be played more like Rick played KP in the Clipper's series?

(04-07-2022, 02:06 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Capela would be great. But, for how much longer? 

Capela is 27.  I would guess for several years.  Is there a reason to think he will fall off sooner?

(04-07-2022, 02:10 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]...also regarding Powell vs "another center", folks don't usually include Powell's passing in the equation. But his passing is a big part of our offense.

Powell is a HUGE component of this offense. He sometimes sets 3-4 really effective screens in one possession. When a primary action gets taken away, he simply back screens for Luka and *boom* - easy layup in the paint.  

You're talking about his passing, and @"omahen" made a similar point the other day about what he has learned to do out of the short roll when Luka gets trapped. 

Players don't just come out of the box knowing how to do that stuff. He's really, really, really smart and has gotten a lot better during his time here. He'll probably continue to improve. Holmes, for example, is probably the length of his entire next contract from this level of understanding (and it's a "maybe" at that). Capela might be a training camp away. Hell, maybe he could do it even faster than that, idk. But, it bothers me that people act like anyone could do the things Powell can do. It's flatly not true. 

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(04-07-2022, 02:15 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]Capela is 27.  I would guess for several years.  Is there a reason to think he will fall off sooner?

I don't watch him every night, but depending on who you read/listen to, you might think he has already started to fall off. Many Atlanta fans do not care for his game (not that that should be gospel. See Mavs fans and Powell). 

I think when discussing bigs whose games are dependent on their feet, which I agree, is a list Capela belongs on, decline can come much earlier than expected.

(04-07-2022, 02:16 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]But, it bothers me that people act like anyone could do the things Powell can do. It's flatly not true. 

Completely agree. Did you see my thoughts on why I think folks underrate Powell? Post 3783 above. DP just doesn't fit the picture of a center that people have in their heads.

edit: folks see what Powell doesn't do, that they've seen traditional centers do, and then don't see what he actually does do.

(04-07-2022, 01:51 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Well, last year, KP wasn't good at anything on the defensive end. I thought that was a sign of permanent decline, and was wrong. I've said that about 100 times. 

But, in regards to the comparison, there are different types of centers. KP was much better protecting the rim from the weak side this year, no doubt. He's better than Powell at that, no doubt. Personally, I don't think he's a difference maker in that area like a Gobert, but...yes, much better than Powell and much better than last year. If he's not making a difference in areas of strength, really, and for my money, he wasn't, then what's the upside to putting up with the things he can't do? 

And as far as what Powell does well, yeah it's a little about switching onto perimeter players, but honestly, that's not what I think he's great at doing. Better than Porzingis by a MILE, but not great. He shows at the right time on those screen and rolls, and has the foot speed to recover in time to ruin the action. He cuts off drives in a help capacity and then recovers to take passes away. I mean honestly I could write four paragraphs on all of the things he does well. I think he's a great defender, myself. Very, very SMART.

First, I must apologize for my tone in what I wrote. When I reread it in your quote, that was not my intent. I will say, I mostly reply to you around here cause you have the most patience with my way of getting a thought out and I appreciate that a lot. I'm sure it grinds on you though and again, I apologize.

I've been meaning to ask you what you (or Dan for that matter) specifically think he does that can't be taught to another willing and hard working player that has foot speed as a C (thinking about Holmes mostly, cause I think Turner does enough on defense, while having foot speed, that even if he didn't do all the things Powell does, those other things still make him better). I mean to ask this on offense and defense. 

My thoughts about what Powell brings that is not teachable is really his foot speed. I think all the other things he does can be taught to a willing and hard working player. I'm willing to concede his IQ being off the charts unteachable, but would need a bit of a large nudge to know specifically how that relates to an on-court advantage over a player with a bit lower IQ, but is a hard and willing worker in your mind.

I'm willing to start giving up on some of my preconceived notions about who Powell is, but I just have a hard time thinking that who he is is a hard worker that is willing to do anything for the team that has really good foot speed and catches on pretty fast because of his IQ. I think everything else can be taught. I also believe some levels of those abilities can be decreased and we still get an upgrade to who Powell is by getting another player (hopefully IN ADDITION to him) that has more pure basketball talent to utilize.

(04-07-2022, 02:23 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]I'm willing to concede his IQ being off the charts unteachable, but would need a bit of a large nudge to know specifically how that relates to an on-court advantage over a player with a bit lower IQ,

passing, screen setting, anchoring the system...imho

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(04-07-2022, 02:23 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]I just have a hard time thinking that who he is is a hard worker that is willing to do anything for the team that has really good foot speed and catches on pretty fast because of his IQ. I think everything else can be taught.

Moses is an off the charts willing, hard worker but don't know that he'll ever learn to do what DP can do.

(04-07-2022, 02:21 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]Completely agree. Did you see my thoughts on why I think folks underrate Powell? Post 3783 above. DP just doesn't fit the picture of a center that people have in their heads.

Yes, pal. That's why I posted that JJ Redick/Durant clip yesterday. 2-3 topics in there that overlap with discussions like this one.

(04-07-2022, 02:28 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, pal. That's why I posted that JJ Redick/Durant clip yesterday. 2-3 topics in there that overlap with discussions like this one.

Is that the one that starts off talking about Blake and ends with the "I don't think we're ever going back" to traditional 4/5s comment? If so, I really enjoyed that one.

(04-07-2022, 02:23 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]First, I must apologize for my tone in what I wrote. When I reread it in your quote, that was not my intent. I will say, I mostly reply to you around here cause you have the most patience with my way of getting a thought out and I appreciate that a lot. I'm sure it grinds on you though and again, I apologize.

I've been meaning to ask you what you (or Dan for that matter) specifically think he does that can't be taught to another willing and hard working player that has foot speed as a C (thinking about Holmes mostly, cause I think Turner does enough on defense, while having foot speed, that even if he didn't do all the things Powell does, those other things still make him better). I mean to ask this on offense and defense. 

My thoughts about what Powell brings that is not teachable is really his foot speed. I think all the other things he does can be taught to a willing and hard working player. I'm willing to concede his IQ being off the charts unteachable, but would need a bit of a large nudge to know specifically how that relates to an on-court advantage over a player with a bit lower IQ, but is a hard and willing worker in your mind.

I'm willing to start giving up on some of my preconceived notions about who Powell is, but I just have a hard time thinking that who he is is a hard worker that is willing to do anything for the team that has really good foot speed and catches on pretty fast because of his IQ. I think everything else can be taught. I also believe some levels of those abilities can be decreased and we still get an upgrade to who Powell is by getting another player (hopefully IN ADDITION to him) that has more pure basketball talent to utilize.

Most people with a problem with Powell only notice him when he ends up guarding someone with the ball, too deep in the paint. Those possessions often don't go well, but they're also not supposed to happen in the first place, and are almost always the fault of someone else (prior to the part that gets noticed). I have no idea if you're in this category of viewer or not, but wanted to set the table with this idea. 

99% of the time, when someone writes what I'm about to write next, it's taken as an insult. Tone can be really difficult here, but I'm going to take a risk and write this anyway. I'm not meaning to suggest that anyone is "dumb" or "not watching" or "doesn't get it." I promise. Here goes:

If you want to see some of what I see about Powell's defense, whether you will ultimately agree with my assessment or not, I recommend spending about five straight games watching ONLY him on defense, regardless of where the BALL is. You will doubtlessly see what I have seen: that he does 2-5 things on each possession that take options away from the opposing offense - the options they want. Sometimes, these possessions are still successful, and sometimes he's the one who ends catching the ball as it drops through the net, even, but that doesn't always mean he's the guy who didn't hold his end of the bargain up. 

This is a really difficult thing to do as a viewer. Much easier said than done. Like I said, I'm not meaning to suggest that you've never done this or thought of it, but I do think there are people around here who haven't. 

I think guys like Powell fly under the radar a bit at times specially because they're at times such effective deterrents on defense that the plan they're foiling never becomes a shot attempt. Many people only seem to notice who's guarding the guy who gets the shot up. If it goes in they say "bad defense." If it bricks they say "nice job there." The truth is that success or failure comes way before the shot attempt in many cases, and often has nothing to do with the guy who ends up on ball.

EDIT: and dude, you didn't offend me earlier, don't worry.

(04-07-2022, 02:25 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]passing, screen setting, anchoring the system...imho

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Moses is an off the charts willing, hard worker but don't know that he'll ever learn to do what DP can do.

See, I think passing is contagious, as soon as Kidd joined the Mavs title team, I used to be amazed at how many times JET (and others, but JET especially) started passing, esp. when he had the ball on a fast break which was almost never the case before. I think screen setting is a taught thing to a willing to sacrifice for the team hard worker. I 've seen Maxi set the same 2-3 screens in 1 play as well when he's the lone big on the court. Anchoring the system is a huge part, and I think could take a year (good defenders coming in would take less, IMO) and a level of confidence to attain, so I'm with you there.

As far as Moses, Powell wasn't much when he came here either. As long as the hard work and willingness is there, and patience from the team, it's hard to imagine many guys would not get there. I think usually one, two or all three of those things goes away too often for these guys and teams for various reasons. I think all 3 of our home grown guys are a testament to this line of thought.

(04-07-2022, 02:32 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]Is that the one that starts off talking about Blake and ends with the "I don't think we're ever going back" to traditional 4/5s comment? If so, I really enjoyed that one.

He said specifically PF. The days of the PF are gone and they aren't coming back. 


(my commentary) All those big PFs are now C's and the small ones are big wings.

(04-07-2022, 02:47 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]He said specifically PF. The days of the PF are gone and they aren't coming back. 


(my commentary) All those big PFs are now C's and the small ones are big wings.

Oh right. Yeah, I agree, that's what I meant by "traditional 4/5" not coming back