(04-07-2022, 02:43 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]As far as Moses, Powell wasn't much when he came here either. As long as the hard work and willingness is there, and patience from the team, it's hard to imagine many guys would not get there.
Maybe you're right. But I think these things might actually take some talent.
Moses for example. When I heard Moses was going to work with Tyson I was excited.
Tyson Chandler was a foot work and foot speed expert, kind of like Powell. It's just the Tyson's foot work expertise were applied in a system that allowed him to be a rim protector. He showed on the pnr and dropped to protect the rim so well that he was able to anchor a great defense.
But...the first time I watched Moses much at all I thought, "oh my goodness, his feet are all over the place! His footwork is awful". Can he learn to be a footwork expert? Maybe. But I actually think there is talent needed for that, not just hard work. could be wrong.
(04-07-2022, 02:43 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Most people with a problem with Powell only notice him when he ends up guarding someone with the ball, too deep in the paint. Those possessions often don't go well, but they're also not supposed to happen in the first place, and are almost always the fault of someone else (prior to the part that gets noticed). I have no idea if you're in this category of viewer or not, but wanted to set the table with this idea.
99% of the time, when someone writes what I'm about to write next, it's taken as an insult. Tone can be really difficult here, but I'm going to take a risk and write this anyway. I'm not meaning to suggest that anyone is "dumb" or "not watching" or "doesn't get it." I promise. Here goes:
If you want to see some of what I see about Powell's defense, whether you will ultimately agree with my assessment or not, I recommend spending about five straight games watching ONLY him on defense, regardless of where the BALL is. You will doubtlessly see what I have seen: that he does 2-5 things on each possession that take options away from the opposing offense - the options they want. Sometimes, these possessions are still successful, and sometimes he's the one who ends catching the ball as it drops through the net, even, but that doesn't always mean he's the guy who didn't hold his end of the bargain up.
This is a really difficult thing to do as a viewer. Much easier said than done. Like I said, I'm not meaning to suggest that you've never done this or thought of it, but I do think there are people around here who haven't.
I think guys like Powell fly under the radar a bit at times specially because they're at times such effective deterrents on defense that the plan they're foiling never becomes a shot attempt. Many people only seem to notice who's guarding the guy who gets the shot up. If it goes in they say "bad defense." If it bricks they say "nice job there." The truth is that success or failure comes way before the shot attempt in many cases, and often has nothing to do with the guy who ends up on ball.
EDIT: and dude, you didn't offend me earlier, don't worry.
I'm already going to try and watch as many playoff games as I can this year (I haven't watched many non-Mav playoff games in recent years) to watch for the vanishing Big as you challenged me to earlier (Also, I know this is the case, but I do wonder to what extent and how close to what you're making it out to be when talking in terms of a vet min player that I'm proposing...so Drummond/Cousins/McGee are going to be must watch games for me and I hope their teams make it past the 1st round to test the theory more).
I have tried to watch Powell mostly for spurts of games cause I wanted to see what you and Dan see in him, but I'll admit, I can get caught up in some of the greatness of what's going on around him at times and lose sight of my goal in watching Powell only. So inevitably I end up watching him at the beginning of games exclusively and that is why I've talked about starting specifically with Powell and how he basically must be playing the long game against opponents.
This is why I've actually started suggesting a good alternative to the sure upgrade to Powell in someone like Turner or Capela (I'm no longer completely sure Holmes is an upgrade to Powell, HOWEVER, I think he'd be at least a good side grade with different strengths to change things up against the opposition) would be to get a big body to bang in the beginning when the opposing big is fresh. Then Powell comes in and while playing the same minutes he is now, does his thing with more ease. Similar to what I think is happening in the playoffs with these big bodied players. It's not that the big bodies aren't being started, it's that as the stakes get higher, the big bodies get sat. So in essence, they are allowing the smaller C's, or small ball C's to not have to bang with those bigger bodies to stay fresh when the stakes get even higher.
(04-07-2022, 03:02 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe you're right. But I think these things might actually take some talent.
Moses for example. When I heard Moses was going to work with Tyson I was excited.
Tyson Chandler was a foot work and foot speed expert, kind of like Powell. It's just the Tyson's foot work expertise were applied to in a system that allowed him to be a rim protector. He showed on the pnr and dropped to protect the rim so well that he was able to anchor a great defense.
But...the first time I watched Moses much at all I thought, "oh my goodness, his feet are all over the place! His footwork is awful". Can he learn to be a footwork expert? Maybe. But I actually think there is talent needed for that, not just hard work. could be wrong.
I mean, you very well could be right too. Only way to know is to be at every practice. Do the Mavs have any openings for like...ball boy? I'll gladly rebound and kick out for them!
(04-07-2022, 02:06 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I agree with this, but only if they do "the rest" better enough to be difference makers in those areas.
With Turner, I'm convinced...on defense. He's better than KP at "the rest" and yes, better than most at doing some of what's working with Powell. My concern with him is that I'm not sure he can do what Powell does on offense. I think we might be signing up for another ill-fitting piece there, ala Porzingis. Not sure, mind you, just concerned. I'd be excited about giving this a try if the stars align and it becomes realistically possible.
Capela would be great. But, for how much longer?
Holmes...not even sure he's a good player, at this point. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't.
Is Holmes good enough that you would take him, in a money dump deal? If he's not playable, his contract is kinda gagly. But one man's trash might be another's treasure.
Say a deal in June with something like Holmes to Dallas, and Brown + 1 of Chriss/Bobi + cash?
In noodling around the edges of what this team has in assets and how best to move forward, I keep wondering of something like that is the smart move. It allows Maxi to play at PF for less wear and tear, keeps your 2 shooters, and keeps the pick for someone young to put in the pipeline at a reduced cost. The downside is MC pays a lot of tax, but that's the price of talent.
It also opens the door to having another piece for potential use in a Gobert deal, sometime later, if Gobert is possibly put on the market.
Would you do that?
(04-07-2022, 03:13 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]I mean, you very well could be right too. Only way to know is to be at every practice. Do the Mavs have any openings for like...ball boy? I'll gladly rebound and kick out for them!
That would be so awesome. I want you to get that job. We'd have a practice insider!!
(04-07-2022, 03:17 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]Is Holmes good enough that you would take him, in a money dump deal? If he's not playable, his contract is kinda gagly. But one man's trash might be another's treasure.
Say a deal in June with something like Holmes to Dallas, and Brown + 1 of Chriss/Bobi + cash?
In noodling around the edges of what this team has in assets and how best to move forward, I keep wondering of something like that is the smart move. It allows Maxi to play at PF for less wear and tear, keeps your 2 shooters, and keeps the pick for someone young to put in the pipeline at a reduced cost. The downside is MC pays a lot of tax, but that's the price of talent.
It also opens the door to having another piece for potential use in a Gobert deal, sometime later, if Gobert is possibly put on the market.
Would you do that?
I think it's a no-brainer if you can get him for that. As I roughly said above, I think of that as more of the 2 24 min C spots secured with 2 (at least) equal talents. This might keep Kleber really fresh as he gets something like 15 mpg behind DFS where DFS gets any of the overlap minutes at the 3 spot. In all honesty, I think it'll be hard to imagine someone wouldn't beat that offer though with the teams out there looking to get a C. However, he was available last offseason and I'm sure would have gone to the highest bidder, but Sac seemed to be that, so who knows?
(04-07-2022, 03:17 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]Is Holmes good enough that you would take him, in a money dump deal? If he's not playable, his contract is kinda gagly. But one man's trash might be another's treasure.
Say a deal in June with something like Holmes to Dallas, and Brown + 1 of Chriss/Bobi + cash?
In noodling around the edges of what this team has in assets and how best to move forward, I keep wondering of something like that is the smart move. It allows Maxi to play at PF for less wear and tear, keeps your 2 shooters, and keeps the pick for someone young to put in the pipeline at a reduced cost. The downside is MC pays a lot of tax, but that's the price of talent.
It also opens the door to having another piece for potential use in a Gobert deal, sometime later, if Gobert is possibly put on the market.
Would you do that?
I would absolutely do that. No question.
(04-07-2022, 03:21 PM)Hogmelon Wrote: [ -> ]Where can I find Maxi Kleber's defensive numbers on those three different rankings?
Oh, ... OK ... never mind. 
KP really liked D-LEBRON while he was here didn't he?
(04-07-2022, 01:44 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I would say the order is:
Luka
DFS
Brunson
Din
Powell
Maxi
Bullock
Green
Well shit, I guess he is in the top 8. This team is thin right now. With THJ out, Bertans is the only remaining player of any worth.
Yes, Green is a plus defender. He and Maxi are both coming off the bench, so we need some defense in that starting lineup. Bullock is a good fit for that spot.
Kidd's defense is what makes Powell usable as a single big. His P&R defense is really good, but he still struggles with rim protection, rebounding and post defense. There are tradeoffs.
If Powell did all of that or even just 1 or 2 of em, then he'd be an elite defender. He's at least a plus defender right now. His contributions to the team defense are plus. No doubt it's in the team's best interest to try and find a guy that can be an elite defender at the 5 though. Powell crushing bench units again would be great.
(04-07-2022, 03:17 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]Is Holmes good enough that you would take him, in a money dump deal? If he's not playable, his contract is kinda gagly. But one man's trash might be another's treasure.
Say a deal in June with something like Holmes to Dallas, and Brown + 1 of Chriss/Bobi + cash?
In noodling around the edges of what this team has in assets and how best to move forward, I keep wondering of something like that is the smart move. It allows Maxi to play at PF for less wear and tear, keeps your 2 shooters, and keeps the pick for someone young to put in the pipeline at a reduced cost. The downside is MC pays a lot of tax, but that's the price of talent.
It also opens the door to having another piece for potential use in a Gobert deal, sometime later, if Gobert is possibly put on the market.
Would you do that?
I think there are four versions of Holmes to Dallas that make sense on some level:
Maxi based deal (Sac Pro: He would fit well with Sabonis. Dallas Con: Bertans is our only real backup PF....draft one?)
Reggie based deal (Sac Pro: They need defensive wings. Dallas Con: Is Green fully ready to take over the role?)
THJ based deal (Sac Pro: A thinking man's version of Hield. Dallas Con: We have to take back an extra player to make the $ work)
TPE based deal (Sac Pro: They can get to a little over the MLE in cap room. Dallas Con: Is there one other than the LT cost to Cuban?)
FWIW in deal design, Sac. has a $4mm TPE. Trying to be realistic, do we have to swap 23 for 37 on top of an end of bench guy or two? To your point about Gobert, I think we'd be ripe for a consolidation trade of some kind. The depth chart of rotation quality players would be a bit crowded:
Holmes/Powell
DFS/Maxi-Bertans
Luka/THJ
Reggie/Green
Brunson/Dinwiddie
It will be challenging to feed all of those mouths.
(04-07-2022, 08:22 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]Holmes/Powell
DFS/Maxi-Bertans
Luka/THJ
Reggie/Green
Brunson/Dinwiddie
It will be challenging to feed all of those mouths.
I like it. I'm not positive that Holmes would start over Powell (dead serious) but I like it.
Man, I didn’t realize Holmes contract started so low. I’d do Holmes for our first and the TPE if it doesn’t hinder signing JB in any way. I do wonder if Sac would do that thinking they would want a win now piece. So THJ or Maxi is the most probable IMO.
(04-07-2022, 09:08 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Man, I didn’t realize Holmes contract started so low. I’d do Holmes for our first and the TPE if it doesn’t hinder signing JB in any way. I do wonder if Sac would do that thinking they would want a win now piece. So THJ or Maxi is the most probable IMO.
Someone is going to have to sell me on Holmes because he's been woefully unimpressive every time I watched him this season. I certainly wouldn't give up a FRP for him but I guess it depends how draft night unfolds. I also don't like the idea of trading Maxi. You need to add a 3rd big to the rotation of Powell and Maxi (and God willing, our draft pick).
After the last trade, I’m hoping for some more washed up, overpaid, injured guys.
Why are a lot of posters here trying to trade a big for another big?
Mavs need an added big and NOT just upgrading one.
Holmes in, Maxi going out? No
Gobert in and Maxi out? I probably can let go of Maxi in this scenario but, I would want a big who can guard the perimeter to replace Maxi because we know Gobert can't.
Turner in, Maxi out? Will be the same scenario as Gobert's
Retain DP and Maxi, just get another big. Even if it's a rookie big.
Yes Maxi is in a shooting slump right now, but he is still the best big for the Mavs who can protect the rim at some capacity and can defend the perimeter better than most bigs in the league.
(04-07-2022, 11:41 PM)Razzmatazz_Hopskidillydoo Wrote: [ -> ]C Holmes/Powell/Chris
PF DFS/Maxi/Bertans
SF Reggie/Holiday
SG Brunson/Green/Frankie
PG Luka/Dinwiddie
If we did something like this, I suspect Dallas would send back at least one player from among those making less than Sacramento's $4mm TPE. We already have one too many players if you assume we keep our pick and Frank's NG for 22/23. So, a two for one just makes that worse. If you did this in June, you might could squeeze two players (Burke and Chriss or Brown and Chriss) into the TPE and save some money and clear the roster glut.
Point being Chriss might not be here if this is the deal. That's OK because your big rotation is probably more like:
C Holmes/Powell/Maxi
PF DFS/Maxi/Bertans
Reggie and Green still split the SF minutes and the three ball handlers split the SG/PG minutes and Holiday is an expiring non factor in the rotation. My issue with this for Sacramento is I question whether they would prefer THJ or Reggie. They are a bad defensive team (so Reggie?). They are a bad 3 point shooting team (so, either?). The key is what they do with their lottery pick. Here is what they have coming back under contract plus DD who I presume they will retain. I think the hole is obvious and if they draft to fill the hole, they probably want Reggie's shorter contract while the lottery pick develops vs. THJ's longer/bigger contract.
Fox/Mitchell
Divencenzo/T. Davis
/Harkless (expiring)
Barnes/Metu
Sabonis/Len
(04-07-2022, 09:34 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]Someone is going to have to sell me on Holmes because he's been woefully unimpressive every time I watched him this season. I certainly wouldn't give up a FRP for him but I guess it depends how draft night unfolds. I also don't like the idea of trading Maxi. You need to add a 3rd big to the rotation of Powell and Maxi (and God willing, our draft pick).
He was a way better player prior to this season. There were a lot of factors involved in this season being a disaster. If he gets back to the player he was before, then that contract is an asset. I would not send out the pick for him, and I don't want to send out Maxi for him. I would send out THJ, and if I think he is going to rebound to his prior self I would probably do Bullock if I had to.
My preference is still to send the pick and salary for Capela or Turner. I don't think its reasonable to expect a late first big to bring significant contributions right away, and that is the one thing this team needs. If we draft a big, it would be a long-term replacement for Powell or Maxi, and we would still need something in the short term.
(04-08-2022, 10:20 AM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think its reasonable to expect a late first big to bring significant contributions right away, and that is the one thing this team needs.
With Jalen coming off his rookie deal and with all the salaries we are committed to, we need more up and coming players on rookie deals. I don't expect him to be a contributor year one, but hopefully in year two or three. Especially important since Maxi and Powell are going into the final year of their deals. That's my line of thinking anyway.
(04-08-2022, 11:13 AM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]With Jalen coming off his rookie deal and with all the salaries we are committed to, we need more up and coming players on rookie deals. I don't expect him to be a contributor year one, but hopefully in year two or three. Especially important since Maxi and Powell are going into the final year of their deals. That's my line of thinking anyway.
So if we do draft a big and we don't expect him to be a contributor year one, but we need more big depth (I would suggest starting depth) then Holmes is probably our only reasonable option for starter quality (prior to this season) center without giving up the pick. But if you are drafting a center and trading for one, we have too many centers on the roster. At that point it might make sense to send Maxi out, or maybe it makes sense to send Bullock and Chriss (which would address the roster count issue).
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