Regarding Grant:
I agree he’s good.
I agree he’s the perfect “type.”
I don’t agree that he’s good or appropriate ENOUGH to include future 1sts. I just don’t. I think we’d all be really sorry in a couple of years, just like we were (still dealing with) with Porzingis. Hell, I think he could be twice as good as KP here and still be a mistake at that price.
Tell me you can get him for THJ and Green, and I’m IN.
(06-17-2022, 12:41 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not sure why it has to be a big wing. We have Dorian for that.
I would never put anything past the great DFS. But, imo, a 6’9”-6’10” version of DFS is pretty much the only ingredient this roster flat out doesn’t have. I guess you can consider Kleber this type, but I don’t. I’m sold on the 5 being his best position, so he’s a big to me now. Period.
Having said that, I agree with your overall point. I don’t think Grant, who I like, is of a quality that makes him attractive regardless of the cost.
(06-17-2022, 12:41 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not sure why it has to be a big wing. We have Dorian for that. This team with any of those guys you mentioned is better than this team with Grant, and in most cases its not close.
Edit: Also most of those guys in the second list are only an inch or two shorter than Grant and within 10 or 15 lbs. So are Dorian and Luka. I think this is a strange line to draw, especially in todays positionless game.
Probably because the best defensive teams have multiple long wing defenders, not just one. Saying we have Dorian for that when it comes to a big defensive wing as though you want to only designate one position for it doesn't make much sense. Also we put a lot on Dorian, and while he's a very good defender, he's not elite in my mind. Giving him and Bullock support defensively would take a big load off them to literally carry the defense for the team. Also it's not just about height. A wing can be within an inch of another wing in height, yet be at a much bigger disadvantage because of wingspan. Makes a big difference.
(06-17-2022, 01:00 PM)Dundalis Wrote: [ -> ]Probably because the best defensive teams have multiple long wing defenders, not just one. Saying we have Dorian for that when it comes to a big defensive wing as though you want to only designate one position for it doesn't make much sense. Also we put a lot on Dorian, and while he's a very good defender, he's not elite in my mind. Giving him and Bullock support defensively would take a big load off them to literally carry the defense for the team. Also it's not just about height. A wing can be within an inch of another wing in height, yet be at a much bigger disadvantage because of wingspan. Makes a big difference.
We are talking about adding somebody like Wiggins vs Grant. I would rather have Wiggins. I really don't think Grant's extra inch is that big of a factor. Who the are the multiple big wings on the team that just won the title? Draymond? He is two inches shorter and plays center half the time. The next biggest wing is Wiggins. Marcus Smart is 6' 4" and I would rather have him guard any player 1-5 vs Grant. We need a defensive wing. Size is a factor, but not an overriding one.
(06-17-2022, 01:10 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]We are talking about adding somebody like Wiggins vs Grant. I would rather have Wiggins. I really don't think Grant's extra inch is that big of a factor. Who the are the multiple big wings on the team that just won the title? Draymond? He is two inches shorter and plays center half the time. The next biggest wing is Wiggins. Marcus Smart is 6' 4" and I would rather have him guard any player 1-5 vs Grant. We need a defensive wing. Size is a factor, but not an overriding one.
I'd absolutely prefer Wiggins to Grant. I also think Wiggins fits the profile just fine. 6'7 is probably the minimum, unless they have super long wingspan. The comment made that I responded to was why does it need to be a big wing. Marcus Smart is a DPOY contender, and kind of an anomaly that won't be relevant to most generic discussions about player types. There are always exceptions to every rule, that doesn't mean you don't have a rule. I would take Grant at his height over the majority of 6'4 NBA players who are better defenders than he is because of positional versatility.
Is Harrison Barnes still a plus defender? Is he obtainable for little to nothing?
(06-17-2022, 01:21 PM)Smitty Wrote: [ -> ]Is Harrison Barnes still a plus defender? Is he obtainable for little to nothing?
Would argue that after leaving GS he never was a plus defender and even that might have been about the system.
(06-17-2022, 01:19 PM)Dundalis Wrote: [ -> ]I'd absolutely prefer Wiggins to Grant. I also think Wiggins fits the profile just fine. 6'7 is probably the minimum, unless they have super long wingspan. The comment made that I responded to was why does it need to be a big wing. Marcus Smart is a DPOY contender, and kind of an anomaly that won't be relevant to most generic discussions about player types. There are always exceptions to every rule, that doesn't mean you don't have a rule. I would take Grant at his height over the majority of 6'4 NBA players who are better defenders than he is because of positional versatility.
Right, but the point of the original discussion is who would you rather have on this team than Grant assuming you were sticking with Wood/Dorian/Luka/Brunson. I think we are all on the same page that it needs to be a defensive wing, but there are guys that I would take over Grant even if they are a little smaller (including many guys in the 6.6 to 6.8 range). There are smaller guys I would prefer as well because they are elite defensively and much better than Grant (guys like Smart and Jrue).
To take the discussion one step further back, I don't think Grant is good enough to burn future picks on, especially since the will be way in the future.
This may be sacrilegious here, but is there a scenario where (since the season is over) DAL can just trade JB before the end of the contract year?
Postulate that MC likes, even loves, JB, but doesn't want to pay an extra (140%?) tax fee to keep him. So instead of SnT, you consult with JB about where he'd like to go (so he'll be willing to sign there) and work a deal for picks and/or players before the new CBA year starts.
Probably smacks a bit of tampering, but if the current team is asking the questions, it should be legal, I think. But I haven't stayed at a HIExpress lately.
Just spitballin' on a HOT Friday afternoon.
(06-17-2022, 09:25 AM)Dundalis Wrote: [ -> ]Thing is, I think I've given up on the Mavs actually valuing draft picks the way they actually should. Thought it was Donnie, but it's definitely Cuban.
So here is the history on this:
When Cuban bought the team the Mavs had one of the lowest payrolls in the league, BUT he had what was regarded as one of the best NBA Draft teams around. It was 2000 and Dirk and Nash were starting to make Nellie (& Donnie) look like geniuses. Dallas had the 9th pick in the draft and Nellie was set on Etan Thomas being the big (PF) that was a NEED rather than BPA. mark asks Nellie who the most NBA ready player was and his answer was Courtney Alexander. So mark buys Orlando's pick (#10) and ultimately use a 3rd FRP (#22) on Donnell Harvey. Nellie was in shock that Cuban could just BUY it (there was another future pick involved but still).
Well When Cuban bought the pick he expected contributors who could perform on a team built around Dirk/Nash/Fin. Now one thing about that draft: IT WAS THE WORST IN THE HISTORY OF THE DRAFT! Ultimately Etan Thomas might have been a top 2-3 player and he did not play the first couple of years. Cuban is simply disgusted with the results and did not have the patience to develop players from this approach.
Nellie then told him there was a way to improve faster, but it would involve trading for players whom their teams thought were overpaid and willing to take less talent for less salary. Cuban adopted this mindset and it led to a series of trades that almost tripled the Mavs payroll. Loy Vaught -> Christian L8ner -> Juwan Howard. In the process there was an entire move away from the draft as Cuban became disenfranchised with the process unless it was a clear All-NBA talent and a top pick.
This plan was working until the NBA produced the Luxury Tax. Cuban really did not blink until the league increased the penalties for being in the TAX. Even this did not STOP the Mavs from spending. Then the 2011 Lockout created the REPEATER TAX and Cuban felt targeted and was scared of Nuclear Winter. This meant not bringing the gang back for a repeat attempt and Dirk spending the last years of his career playing for pennies on the dollar every other year.
So for the last 10 years Dallas has had an owner who did not trust or invest in the draft; Would no longer incur the repeater tax; and felt the best way to improve the team was through FA and cap space OR the hope that teams would have to sell off assets to avoid the TAX Penalties.
Donnie was not perfect, but he was able to be moderately successful given the culture from the top down. And yeah, IF I vouched for Giannis and we traded down to save money that did not get spent (Dwight Howard/PG) and ultimately landed us with Wes Matthews on one leg: I'd be willing to sue if someone claimed I was fired for incompetence.
Brunson S&T for Collins?
Even with Wood we need to upgrade the frontcourt. We're starting guard rich with Luka, Din, and THJ.
PG - Luka
SG - THJ
SF - DFS
PF - Collins
C - Wood
(06-17-2022, 12:41 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not sure why it has to be a big wing. We have Dorian for that.
Dorian can't guard Kawhi and other elite big wing creators. He is just not strong enough
1 I think Dragic is a strong possibility IF he is willing to play for what the Mavs have to offer (minimum). I said this same thing before the HOU trade, that the path to Dragic is two-fold: (1) find a taker for Burke (he won''t be waived), and (2) convince Dragic to be a Mav for the minimum that Mavs can offer. I wouldn't worry about how he is or isn't used. If he's good enough, Mavs will get minutes for him.
...BTW, Dragic hung out with the Mavs during the Mavs playoff run, once his postseason ended quickly. Now he's with Luka (again) while they play for their national team. This is probably as good as he can be recruited.
2a I don't think the Mavs want to be done yet -- but I also don't think they will PAY a team to take salary or some player off the Mavs roster.
2b So I do think the Mavs could essentially be done, and bide their time until their current pieces get a little more desirable, with a 15-man that looks something like this:
REGULARS DEEP BACKUP/DEVELOP
BIGS (48 mins) Wood, Kleber Powell
CREATOR (96 mins) Luka
Dinwiddie Dragic
Brunson
WING (96 mins) DFS Bertans
THJ
Bullock Green, Franky, Pinson
Unless someone in the top 8 is outgoing, it's hard to see regular minutes for player 15 (presumably a two-way wing). If they could, trading THJ for a 2-way guy would make a lot of sense, but I don't think they will trade him unless they can get full value (ie, another team wants him, rather than bribing some team to take him).
So they might settle for a FA who has 3-and-D skills or potential, or who is a fallen star, or who wants on a title bandwagon, that comes for cheap without expectations. Whichever it would be, the goal would be to get great value for their money (like GS did with OPJ and Bjelica and Payton this past season).
Players on a "one-year minimum" give the easiest-to-swallow financial cost for a team paying well above the tax, and only last for a year and then do it again (or not.) However, "all we have is the txMLE and we want a player who wants to be part of our core" has the potential to entice that bargain deal that gets some great value for 3 years from a ring chaser. If you can find that guy worth the big MLE or more, and lock him up for 3 years, you'll be glad you did.
(06-17-2022, 01:38 PM)michaeltex Wrote: [ -> ]is there a scenario where (since the season is over) DAL can just trade JB before the end of the contract year?
No. The next step for JB is to sign a new contract with someone, and that can't happen until July. If Mavs sign him for someone else whose deal he wants, that's called a sign-and-trade, with many rules to follow.
(06-17-2022, 02:06 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]1 I think Dragic is a strong possibility IF he is willing to play for what the Mavs have to offer (minimum). I said this same thing before the HOU trade, that the path to Dragic is two-fold: (1) find a taker for Burke (he won''t be waived), and (2) convince Dragic to be a Mav for the minimum that Mavs can offer. I wouldn't worry about how he is or isn't used. If he's good enough, Mavs will get minutes for him.
...BTW, Dragic hung out with the Mavs during the Mavs playoff run, once his postseason ended quickly. Now he's with Luka (again) while they play for their national team. This is probably as good as he can be recruited.
2a I don't think the Mavs want to be done yet -- but I also don't think they will PAY a team to take salary or some player off the Mavs roster.
2b So I do think the Mavs could essentially be done, and bide their time until their current pieces get a little more desirable, with a 15-man that looks something like this:
REGULARS DEEP BACKUP/DEVELOP
BIGS (48 mins) Wood, Kleber Powell
CREATOR (96 mins) Luka
Dinwiddie Dragic
Brunson
WING (96 mins) DFS Bertans
THJ
Bullock Green, Franky, Pinson
Unless someone in the top 8 is outgoing, it's hard to see regular minutes for player 15 (presumably a two-way wing). If they could, trading THJ for a 2-way guy would make a lot of sense, but I don't think they will trade him unless they can get full value (ie, another team wants him, rather than bribing some team to take him).
So they might settle for a FA who has 3-and-D skills or potential, or who is a fallen star, or who wants on a title bandwagon, that comes for cheap without expectations. Whichever it would be, the goal would be to get great value for their money (like GS did with OPJ and Bjelica and Payton this past season).
Players on a "one-year minimum" give the easiest-to-swallow financial cost for a team paying well above the tax, and only last for a year and then do it again (or not.) However, "all we have is the txMLE and we want a player who wants to be part of our core" has the potential to entice that bargain deal that gets some great value for 3 years from a ring chaser. If you can find that guy worth the big MLE or more, and lock him up for 3 years, you'll be glad you did.
I have zero doubt that Dragic will be a Mav. I agree that THJ is the logical outgoing player in any potential upgrade to the “top 8”. Im perfectly content adding Wood and THJ to this years playoff rotation and seeing what internal improvements will get you. I fully expect Luka and Brunson to get better for example. Will Dinwiddie? Dorian again? RB in his second year here?
(06-17-2022, 01:51 PM)SkenfromLMF Wrote: [ -> ]So here is the history on this:
When Cuban bought the team the Mavs had one of the lowest payrolls in the league, BUT he had what was regarded as one of the best NBA Draft teams around. It was 2000 and Dirk and Nash were starting to make Nellie (& Donnie) look like geniuses. Dallas had the 9th pick in the draft and Nellie was set on Etan Thomas being the big (PF) that was a NEED rather than BPA. mark asks Nellie who the most NBA ready player was and his answer was Courtney Alexander. So mark buys Orlando's pick (#10) and ultimately use a 3rd FRP (#22) on Donnell Harvey. Nellie was in shock that Cuban could just BUY it (there was another future pick involved but still).
Well When Cuban bought the pick he expected contributors who could perform on a team built around Dirk/Nash/Fin. Now one thing about that draft: IT WAS THE WORST IN THE HISTORY OF THE DRAFT! Ultimately Etan Thomas might have been a top 2-3 player and he did not play the first couple of years. Cuban is simply disgusted with the results and did not have the patience to develop players from this approach.
Nellie then told him there was a way to improve faster, but it would involve trading for players whom their teams thought were overpaid and willing to take less talent for less salary. Cuban adopted this mindset and it led to a series of trades that almost tripled the Mavs payroll. Loy Vaught -> Christian L8ner -> Juwan Howard. In the process there was an entire move away from the draft as Cuban became disenfranchised with the process unless it was a clear All-NBA talent and a top pick.
This plan was working until the NBA produced the Luxury Tax. Cuban really did not blink until the league increased the penalties for being in the TAX. Even this did not STOP the Mavs from spending. Then the 2011 Lockout created the REPEATER TAX and Cuban felt targeted and was scared of Nuclear Winter. This meant not bringing the gang back for a repeat attempt and Dirk spending the last years of his career playing for pennies on the dollar every other year.
So for the last 10 years Dallas has had an owner who did not trust or invest in the draft; Would no longer incur the repeater tax; and felt the best way to improve the team was through FA and cap space OR the hope that teams would have to sell off assets to avoid the TAX Penalties.
Donnie was not perfect, but he was able to be moderately successful given the culture from the top down. And yeah, IF I vouched for Giannis and we traded down to save money that did not get spent (Dwight Howard/PG) and ultimately landed us with Wes Matthews on one leg: I'd be willing to sue if someone claimed I was fired for incompetence.
The above is all very true (but not widely known). Great recap and explanation!
(06-17-2022, 10:09 AM)Dundalis Wrote: [ -> ]The teams defensive rating I believe, started tanking the second half of the season and in the playoffs. There's a lot of talk about Kidd being able to magic defense from a team with little actual defensive or athletic talent, but at some point you need actual talent.
IMO the defensive dropoff was because we added 2 players who didn't know the system and are not good defenders. But we HAD to force feed them minutes.
(06-17-2022, 03:52 PM)MFFL Wrote: [ -> ]IMO the defensive dropoff was because we added 2 players who didn't know the system and are not good defenders. But we HAD to force feed them minutes.
Don´t think that´s true. Both actually had positive on/off impact on defense. I think the defensive dropoff was more about the heavy load of key players. Especially in small ball lineups. In the past we saw similar trends on other teams (Rockets, Warriors). And to a lesser degree teams adjusting to Kidd´s scheme. Another well known trend from his previous coaching jobs.
My wish list for a big wing who might be in the Mavs' price range:
P J Tucker
(06-17-2022, 04:42 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]My wish list for a big wing who might be in the Mavs' price range:
P J Tucker
Would love to have him. But is there any reason to believe that he will opt out? Sign for less money? Maybe if another team offers extra years but are you willing to offer a player that just turned 37 a three year deal?