(02-14-2022, 09:50 PM)Omega_Supreme Wrote: [ -> ]So assuming you do the Dragic deal and Dragic, Brunson, and Bouche walk then what:
You essentially lost KP for nothing right?
Who do you sign with that cap space?
The Wizards deal was the best deal, they bought a replacement for Hardaway and a possible replacement for Maxi while adding insurance for Brunson.
If you consider the flexibility they have now the Wizards deal was the best deal and they still have the ability to add more pieces.
I would venture to say that Bertans if his shooting comes back and Dinwiddie are upgrades over Maxi and THJ which makes them expendable.
SMH
There is so much wrong with this.
It sounds like you are saying Dinwiddie is a replacement for THJ? They are completely different players that fill completely different roles. They only thing they share is that they are overpriced and have questionable fit on this team.
You are suggesting Bertans replaces Maxi? They are also completely different players. Maxi is probably our best defender who can both protect the rim and guard the perimeter. Bertrans can't do either effectively. He is 3 point specialist that brings nothing else to the table. He is the replacement for THJ, only he is a worse player on roughly the same contract.
You are saying this trade gives us more flexibility? So we can dump our current players because these new contracts are so bad nobody will take them?
What ability do we have to add more pieces?
I am guessing most folks on this board would have preferred we trade KP for air (expirings that we have no intention of re-signing) than the package we got, and its not even close. Those contracts (especially the Bertans one) are a potential chokehold on our flexibility for years to come if they don't completely turn their games around.
(02-14-2022, 10:28 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]You have a point.
I suppose a better way to word is it is " I sure hope Dinwiddie and Bertans show a performance that will be indicative of future performances so that our discussions on said players will allow us to make judgments very quickly (and be as accurate as possible). This is because it is impossible to be wrong on the internet. WE MUST BE CORRECT."
While there is far too much black and white on the internet, especially when we are passionate about the subject matter, small sample sizes don't mean anything.
My money is on Bertans being the better player for us as I'm not sure Dinwiddie is fully recovered yet. The biggest knock on Bertans prior to this year's Washington debacle is showing up in the playoffs. He was dreadful for the Spurs in '18-19 and not much better for the Wizards last year, failing to get time in either of their final games.
(02-14-2022, 10:37 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]My money is on Bertans being the better player for us as I'm not sure Dinwiddie is fully recovered yet. The biggest knock on Bertans prior to this year's Washington debacle is showing up in the playoffs. He was dreadful for the Spurs in '18-19 and not much better for the Wizards last year, failing to get time in either of their final games.
That is one of my biggest fears with Bertans. That video I shared detailed his playoff disappearances. If anything we need more consistency when the lights get big, not less. It's the reason why I view Maxi as so expendable right now.
In any case, as long as Luka feeds Bertans wide open look after wide open look, I think there is a good shot his value will be rehabbed to the point where his value might be seen as a neutral to neutral-positive asset.
Mavs still need their consolidation trade for another star. Just this time we don't need to tailor the acquisition to workaround KP's specificities. My dream is Ayton (which is nigh impossible). Lillard might be available in the summer if the Blazers fall flat on their face.
(02-14-2022, 10:43 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]That is one of my biggest fears with Bertans. That video I shared detailed his playoff disappearances. If anything we need more consistency when the lights get big, not less. It's the reason why I view Maxi as so expendable right now.
In any case, as long as Luka feeds Bertans wide open look after wide open look, I think there is a good shot his value will be rehabbed to the point where his value might be seen as a neutral to neutral-positive asset.
Mavs still need their consolidation trade for another star. Just this time we don't need to tailor the acquisition to workaround KP's specificities. My dream is Ayton (which is nigh impossible). Lillard might be available in the summer if the Blazers fall flat on their face.
Ayton wants max money so I want no part of him. I'm firmly in the camp that thinks you should be 10 cents on the dollar for a traditional center. I also kind of think we are at least two seasons (after KP's last pick conveys to NY) before we should start dreaming about big names again. I guess Jalen could break that rule if he keeps taking leaps.
(02-14-2022, 10:48 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]Ayton wants max money so I want no part of him. I'm firmly in the camp that thinks you should be 10 cents on the dollar for a traditional center. I also kind of think we are at least two seasons (after KP's last pick conveys to NY) before we should start dreaming about big names again. I guess Jalen could break that rule if he keeps taking leaps.
I think when you have a player of Luka's caliber you should always maximize the talent around him. He almost singlehandedly willed the Mavs over Kawhi+PG+Ty Lue.
So if I'm Cuban/Nico, I'm trying to get the best fitting big name I can possibly find as soon as possible.
Surprised you're not a fan of Ayton. He's a traditional center that doesn't necessarily suffer the downsides of most traditional centers. He's quick enough to contain most guards on the perimeter and was one of the better defenders against Giannis last year. He's also a remarkably efficient scorer down low. He actually has a post game AND a PnR game.
Not to mention him and Luka had/have some chemistry together. Here he was (*with his mom I believe) helping Luka on draft day.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pfcTqchyhk
Do want to say that I believe this is a moot point. Should the Suns be dumb enough to not pay him, there's no way they'd accept a paltry Mavs offer.
I like Ayton a lot but unless you are an apex center (Joker, Joel...and I'd have a hard time classifying them as tadeonal centers, you could probably talk me into Gobert), I fear injury (KP Syndrome). And like I said, can I pay Robinson and Noel and 1/3rd or less the price that Ayton is going to command and get 60% of the production? My money would go to wings or whoever the next Amar'e is.
And speaking of Suns, I have a huge crush on Cam Johnson.
(02-14-2022, 10:19 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]I really hope Dinwiddie and Bertans show out against Miami. If they put up stinkers we're going to get 964 posts about how the Mavs shoulda chosen a Toronto offer that never was really there. Tuesday can't come soon enough.
I do, too, and I feel like I’m one of the most negative on the board about those two. I’d love to be wrong, though.
Did they HAVE to give him Bradley's number? I feel like that's just begging for fans to hate him.
(02-14-2022, 10:34 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]There is so much wrong with this.
It sounds like you are saying Dinwiddie is a replacement for THJ? They are completely different players that fill completely different roles. They only thing they share is that they are overpriced and have questionable fit on this team.
You are suggesting Bertans replaces Maxi? They are also completely different players. Maxi is probably our best defender who can both protect the rim and guard the perimeter. Bertrans can't do either effectively. He is 3 point specialist that brings nothing else to the table. He is the replacement for THJ, only he is a worse player on roughly the same contract.
You are saying this trade gives us more flexibility? So we can dump our current players because these new contracts are so bad nobody will take them?
What ability do we have to add more pieces?
I am guessing most folks on this board would have preferred we trade KP for air (expirings that we have no intention of re-signing) than the package we got, and its not even close. Those contracts (especially the Bertans one) are a potential chokehold on our flexibility for years to come if they don't completely turn their games around.
Yes replacements, I think Bertans adds more value than Maxi and I think that Dinwiddie is a more efficient player than Hardaway. Dinwiddie does not shoot it at a high clip but he adds offense in a different way. You do not have to replace Maxi and THJ with guys that do the exact same thing, you just have to replace their salary. You can find another shooter and a defensive forward to replace that hole left by Maxi but its hard to find elite shooting at the stretch 4 position.
As for the trade KP for expiring contracts, I am still trying to understand who we target. The KP money would likely get ate up by Brunson so you would be left with an even smaller pie which is why I said it does not make any sense to trade KP for expiring contracts. That is the Donnie Nelson approach to roster building.
Can you answer the question on who the likely target would be if did trade KP for expiring contracts? I assume you would let JB walk as well to capitalize off of the KP money right?
(02-14-2022, 11:11 PM)soog Wrote: [ -> ]I do, too, and I feel like I’m one of the most negative on the board about those two. I’d love to be wrong, though.
I'm not but then again I watched a lot of Brooklyn games and know that Dinwiddie's skillset is a major need on our squad. he gets to the rim and he can create. He is very good finisher around the rim. We really really need that.
He could have been an all star a few years ago.
His shooting could improve because he has never played with anyone that can give hm catch and shoot opportunities. Again I have watched a lot of Brooklyn basketball and he could really help us.
This is my favorite collection of highlights of him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0dd8TGqMGk&t=96s
(02-14-2022, 10:33 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]I have been saying Cuban IS to blame. My posts are crystal clear on that.
I simply do not think Cuban was the GM (and doing all the things that GMs do).
That's all my point is. I have never said at any point that Cuban doesn't bear responsibility. It all happened under him, that is inexcusable.
Back when this was all happening and now, I think you consistently undersell just how culpable he is for the dysfunction by focusing on other front office contributions and whether he was the GM (or not). That latter question isn’t very valuable in an organization with poorly defined responsibilities, inconsistent decision authority, and amorphous roles. Not to mention finding yourself in a situation where that’s not an instantly laughable question is an indictment itself.
The bigger question is whether executive leadership structuring the organization to be successful. I think he is
the person to blame and it quickly becomes difficult to evaluate everyone else involved given the limited information that actually gets reported. Others may have serious flaws but the water is muddied by the guy taking a backhoe to his own riverbank.
(02-14-2022, 11:55 PM)Not an evil robot Wrote: [ -> ]I think he is the person to blame
Here is my (I think) final thought on this and after that it is probably best to agree to disagree. This isn't a perfect analogy but my hope is it presents why I think Donnie bears more or at least equal blame in this:
If I go to a local Taco Bell restaurant and there is chaos in that restaurant I believe the most culpable person is the on-site manager who is in charge of the day to day operations, I do not blame the corporate CEO for the dysfunction at a single chain restaurant. However, if the CEO is aware over time of this dysfunction and does not fix it, then the CEO begins to be as culpable as the manager.
The day to day operations of the Mavs failed under Donnie (especially in recent years). He was the "on-site manager." Cuban (as the CEO) should have stepped in sooner to fix the dysfunction (that is the fault he bears). But at the end of the day, the manager bears most of the blame IMO. Now that the CEO has stepped in and removed the manager, there should be some concern about whether he would let it happen again. But because of Cuban's fierce love of the Mavs and of winning, I do not think he will make this same mistake twice.
I can get behind someone saying Cuban and Donnie bear equal blame (though I personally would put a little more on Donnie). But to suggest Cuban is THE singular one to blame is not something I can get behind based on what I know of the situation.
Regardless, I am watching things closely in the Mavs management department and hoping Cuban has learned his lesson.
(02-14-2022, 11:25 PM)Omega_Supreme Wrote: [ -> ]Yes replacements, I think Bertans adds more value than Maxi and I think that Dinwiddie is a more efficient player than Hardaway. Dinwiddie does not shoot it at a high clip but he adds offense in a different way. You do not have to replace Maxi and THJ with guys that do the exact same thing, you just have to replace their salary. You can find another shooter and a defensive forward to replace that hole left by Maxi but its hard to find elite shooting at the stretch 4 position.
As for the trade KP for expiring contracts, I am still trying to understand who we target. The KP money would likely get ate up by Brunson so you would be left with an even smaller pie which is why I said it does not make any sense to trade KP for expiring contracts. That is the Donnie Nelson approach to roster building.
Can you answer the question on who the likely target would be if did trade KP for expiring contracts? I assume you would let JB walk as well to capitalize off of the KP money right?
You do realize Bertrans is considered to be on one of the worst contracts in the NBA, right? He is a stretch 4 that can't play defense, rebound, pass, dribble, or do anything but shoot. That is not worth 16 mil. That contract is terrible when he signed it, and has gotten even worse. He is literally getting regular DNP on a bad team. I have no idea why you think that would be worth more than Maxi, especially when you look their contracts.
Its easy to replace Maxi? How many defensive forwards can protect the rim, guard the perimeter and shoot better than league average? How are we acquiring this replacement? With what? We have no cap or assets.
Don't understand the comment that Dinwiddie is more efficient than THJ? He an historically inefficient scorer. The fact that he can distribute is valuable, but does not really have anything to do with efficiency. The real issue with Din (other than his recent poor play and scary injury history) is that now we have 3 guys who all play better with the ball in their hands. I don't think that is going to end well. My greatest fear is that it will end Brunson being made less effective and less like to want to stay.
I think you are totally missing the argument here. I had no real interest in selling KP for expirings. Especially now when it does not generate much cap space. The whole point of my argument is those contracts we got were so bad (especially Bertans), expirings would be preferable. Simply because we would not be stuck with two bad/poor fitting players that we can't get rid of, in Bertans case for years.
Why in the world would I want Brunson to walk. We have lowered the talent level on this team significantly with this trade, letting Brunson walk would be the final nail. One of the many reasons I hate this trade is I think Dinwiddie makes it less likely Brunson stays.
(02-15-2022, 12:12 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Here is my (I think) final thought on this and after that it is probably best to agree to disagree. This isn't a perfect analogy but my hope is it presents why I think Donnie bears more or at least equal blame in this:
If I go to a local Taco Bell restaurant and there is chaos in that restaurant I believe the most culpable person is the on-site manager who is in charge of the day to day operations, I do not blame the corporate CEO for the dysfunction at a single chain restaurant. However, if the CEO is aware over time of this dysfunction and does not fix it, then the CEO begins to be as culpable as the manager.
The day to day operations of the Mavs failed under Donnie (especially in recent years). He was the "on-site manager." Cuban (as the CEO) should have stepped in sooner to fix the dysfunction (that is the fault he bears). But at the end of the day, the manager bears most of the blame IMO. Now that the CEO has stepped in and removed the manager, there should be some concern about whether he would let it happen again. But because of Cuban's fierce love of the Mavs and of winning, I do not think he will make this same mistake twice.
I can get behind someone saying Cuban and Donnie bear equal blame (though I personally would put a little more on Donnie). But to suggest Cuban is THE singular one to blame is not something I can get behind based on what I know of the situation.
Regardless, I am watching things closely in the Mavs management department and hoping Cuban has learned his lesson.
Honestly on the early returns of this TDL and the offseason, I think I am starting to miss Donnie.
(02-15-2022, 12:12 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]. . .
Regardless, I am watching things closely in the Mavs management department and hoping Cuban has learned his lesson.
Really? How? I feel like I am an outsider with zero access to whatever is going on in there. That’s why I have no clue who to blame. Do you truly have the ability to watch them closely?
(02-15-2022, 12:31 AM)Jommybone Wrote: [ -> ]Really? How? I feel like I am an outsider with zero access to whatever is going on in there. That’s why I have no clue who to blame. Do you truly have the ability to watch them closely?
As closely as I can as a fan. Listen to how Nico and Cuban speak. Notice the decisions and how they compare to years past. When you aren't on the inside you have to pay attention to the tiniest details and subtleties.
(02-14-2022, 10:28 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]You have a point.
I suppose a better way to word is it is " I sure hope Dinwiddie and Bertans show a performance that will be indicative of future performances so that our discussions on said players will allow us to make judgments very quickly (and be as accurate as possible). This is because it is impossible to be wrong on the internet. WE MUST BE CORRECT."
They could have very good games vs Miami (I doubt it though if Miami has all its key players) and then put up dismal numbers in their next few games. Then what?
(02-15-2022, 08:16 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]As closely as I can as a fan. Listen to how Nico and Cuban speak. Notice the decisions and how they compare to years past. When you aren't on the inside you have to pay attention to the tiniest details and subtleties.
I agree, Donnie Nelson never would have made this KP trade.
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