MavsBoard

(07-27-2021, 11:59 PM)VintagePejav2 Wrote: [ -> ]Not expiring.

Obviously. My bad. Maybe we can talk Toronto into stretch-waiving them in 12 months?

(07-27-2021, 09:42 PM)VintagePejav2 Wrote: [ -> ]I think potentially the sign-and-trade deal for Lowry could be J-Rich, Maxi, and WCS. That’s ~$24.5M outgoing, so Lowry can get his $30M per, and those are all essentially expiring contracts (Maxi’s final year is non-guaranteed). That would allow the Mavs to operate over the cap, re-sign Hardaway, and have the full MLE and BAE left to use.

Creating the cap space for both Lowry and THJ is definitely more difficult. Supposedly Boston has been tied to the JRich rumors in a salary dump trade. Then I think the likely other player to be dumped is Powell. I could see Orlando for Powell’s landing spot - Mosley supposedly loves him. I’m not too interested in what comes back in those trades, it just needs to be as little guaranteed salary as possible. Roughly, getting to around $45M in space would let you get close to $30M for Lowry and stay in the high teens of $M for THJ. Then you’ve only got the room MLE to finish things off (outside of trades - Brunson?).

Yeah the over the cap-avenue is preferable for us. I don’t think it’s outlandish value-wise what you’re proposing. Maxi has positive value Imo, JRich/WCS should be neutral.

Maybe you have to throw in something small asset-wise but that idea has some positive for TOR, too, as they could use Lowry‘s caphold and then keep the MLE.

Lowry | Brunson | Trey
Luka | Hardaway | Terry 
DFS | Green | ???
??? | ??? | Bey
KP | Powell | ???

Trades, MLE and BAE then could be used to fill out the roster. I‘d be on board. Lowry would give us a lift and stability, in 2-3 years you could have caproom again. I don’t think there are many better options for us if he’s willing to sign here.

It’s probably impossible to find a way to land Lowry and Collins, right? I’d prefer that over Lowry+Timmy but we don’t have enough caproom for both and also not enough assets/contracts to make two SnTs work I guess.

(07-27-2021, 09:42 PM)VintagePejav2 Wrote: [ -> ]I think potentially the sign-and-trade deal for Lowry could be J-Rich, Maxi, and WCS. That’s ~$24.5M outgoing, so Lowry can get his $30M per, and those are all essentially expiring contracts (Maxi’s final year is non-guaranteed). That would allow the Mavs to operate over the cap, re-sign Hardaway, and have the full MLE and BAE left to use.

Creating the cap space for both Lowry and THJ is definitely more difficult. Supposedly Boston has been tied to the JRich rumors in a salary dump trade. Then I think the likely other player to be dumped is Powell. I could see Orlando for Powell’s landing spot - Mosley supposedly loves him. I’m not too interested in what comes back in those trades, it just needs to be as little guaranteed salary as possible. Roughly, getting to around $45M in space would let you get close to $30M for Lowry and stay in the high teens of $M for THJ. Then you’ve only got the room MLE to finish things off (outside of trades - Brunson?).

I keep trying to send Powell to Toronto, but you are right that Maxi might be the more attractive outgoing contract.  Much depends on what JRich does.  If he opts in, you can get to $25mm for Lowry (with penny's to spare) by doing a S&T with just Maxi and JRich (and they don't have to necessarily both go to Toronto).  As has been said, you still have your hold on THJ and can use the MLE.

If JRich opts out, then you simply find a landing spot for Maxi and you have space to do $18mm for THJ and $25mm for Lowry (but only the r-MLE).  Miami has fairly easy paths to these same destinations.  The club option deadline for both Dragic and Iggy is 8/1 (same for Josh Richardson).  I believe NO has to outbid Dallas and Miami.  So, what do you hope for regarding JRich?  If he's in, there is a path to the full MLE.  If he's out, it is probably super easy to find a home for Maxi (you might even get a pick out of it).  But, there may not be a good OTC scenario without Richardson's outgoing money.  The full MLE would come in really handy because what remains needs a least one more high level bench guy.  

Lowry/Brunson
Luka/
THJ/Green
DFS
KP/Powell

The idea of Lowry as the offseason is starting to depress me.

Btw: Jake Fischer answered fan questions somewhere and talked about Dwight Powell being a name that has frequently come up in regards to the Celtics.

I’ll try to find it.

Edit: damn no, it was in regards to JRich being mentioned with BOS.

Here’s the tweet:

https://twitter.com/mavsfilmroom/status/...35461?s=21

If Lowry is the plan, hopefully we can find a way to trade Brunson for a useful big on a rookie contract 
Especially if Maxi has to be included in a sign-and-trade

(07-28-2021, 06:56 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]Lowry/Brunson
Luka/
THJ/Green
DFS
KP/Powell

I'm with Kamm, if this is our lineup on opening day, I'm pretty down about the offseason. Esp since it probably means THJ and Lowry are more than likely negative value contracts as soon as half way through next season.

(07-28-2021, 08:03 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]I'm with Kamm, if this is our lineup on opening day, I'm pretty down about the offseason. Esp since it probably means THJ and Lowry are more than likely negative value contracts as soon as half way through next season.

I'm just so tired of the Mavs not having players and contracts that are desirable to other teams. That has to change.

(07-28-2021, 08:13 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]I'm just so tired of the Mavs not having players and contracts that are desirable to other teams. That has to change.

That´s a kinda funny look at our players.

Luka, DFS, Maxi, Brunson were all bargains for the Mavs - WCS and THJ were absolutly worth their money. Then there are Powell and KP who might have been overpayed, but were also hold back by injuries.
Yes, Green and Terry had rough rookie seasons in a unusual year.

The problem was we traded Seth for JRich and are still missing a second/third wheel. We have about 20Mio+ to find one.

(07-28-2021, 06:56 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]I keep trying to send Powell to Toronto, but you are right that Maxi might be the more attractive outgoing contract.  Much depends on what JRich does.  If he opts in, you can get to $25mm for Lowry (with penny's to spare) by doing a S&T with just Maxi and JRich (and they don't have to necessarily both go to Toronto).  As has been said, you still have your hold on THJ and can use the MLE.

If JRich opts out, then you simply find a landing spot for Maxi and you have space to do $18mm for THJ and $25mm for Lowry (but only the r-MLE).  Miami has fairly easy paths to these same destinations.  The club option deadline for both Dragic and Iggy is 8/1 (same for Josh Richardson).  I believe NO has to outbid Dallas and Miami.  So, what do you hope for regarding JRich?  If he's in, there is a path to the full MLE.  If he's out, it is probably super easy to find a home for Maxi (you might even get a pick out of it).  But, there may not be a good OTC scenario without Richardson's outgoing money.  The full MLE would come in really handy because what remains needs a least one more high level bench guy.  

Lowry/Brunson
Luka/
THJ/Green
DFS
KP/Powell

Not that excited by Lowry/THJ and much less so if it means we have to dump Maxi.  I feel like that is going the wrong way with out big rotation.

(07-28-2021, 08:32 AM)Mapka Wrote: [ -> ]That´s a kinda funny look at our players.

Luka, DFS, Maxi, Brunson were all bargains for the Mavs - WCS and THJ were absolutly worth their money. Then there are Powell and KP who might have been overpayed, but were also hold back by injuries.
Yes, Green and Terry had rough rookie seasons in a unusual year. 

The problem was we traded Seth for JRich and are still missing a second/third wheel. We have about 20Mio+ to find one.

So, a few things about the bolded. 

I think at this point in his career and taking this last season under consideration, Maxi's contract is at or above his value on the court (at least in terms of what other teams would value him in trade).

I think in terms of THJ's "another team's value" I agree that he was worth his contract to some teams that need that kind of production, not all teams, and not the Mavs. We need more from one of the open positions (SG-PF or SG, SF and C depending on where KP lands with Kidd). IF DFS is staying AND starting, he takes up the SF spot as a defender/glue guy that isn't a creator/distributor. That means we NEED to find a creator/defender/distributor in at least 1 of the other 2 open positions, SG and PF or C. We NEED a couple more high end perimeter defenders at that point because of what the rest of the team is on defense. We also NEED a bigger body in that PF or C spot to take the bigger bodied players in the league off of KP's hands. I just don't see what they see in making THJ a priority signing in the offseason, unless he's a priority 6th man signing at $12-15M.

Powell's contract and playing position are pretty big obstacles for this roster, I think it is underselling it to say he "might have been overpayed".

Based on last season's production, KP is also not in "might have been overpayed" territory. I doubt there is a team out there that wants him bad enough to pay what the Mavs should get in trade for him. I think he'll show up in the early part of the season and show what he's worth, I won't bet against him playing well enough to make the all star team in all honesty. However, as of right now, in this moment, the people that are most down on him (looking at you KL and DFS98) are closer to right than those who are most high on him.

Green had a horrible rookie season, Terry had a disastrous few games and then was non-existent. Doubt there are many teams that would view either as an asset right now, but there are probably a few.

After all that, saying "The problem was" and then referring to the Curry for JRich trade as being THE problem with last year's team seems too far off the mark to me. Sure, Having Curry on that team last year MIGHT have been an improvement. I really doubt the improvement in him personally would have been the same as we saw in PHI though. He just wasn't utilized well enough here, and his confidence in shooting the ball skyrocketed in PHI. Here he was a timid shooter that would only put the ball up on WIDE, WIDE, WIDE open shots, and hardly was a crunch time savior because of that too.

(07-28-2021, 09:20 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]After all that, saying "The problem was" and then referring to the Curry for JRich trade as being THE problem with last year's team seems too far off the mark to me. Sure, Having Curry on that team last year MIGHT have been an improvement. I really doubt the improvement in him personally would have been the same as we saw in PHI though. He just wasn't utilized well enough here, and his confidence in shooting the ball skyrocketed in PHI. Here he was a timid shooter that would only put the ball up on WIDE, WIDE, WIDE open shots, and hardly was a crunch time savior because of that too.

Totally agree with the first part. I think Mavs wouldn't be any better with Curry than they were with JRich. Was there a better trade available? We don't know. 

Curry works great in Philly because he is surrounded by 4 great defenders. With Mavs there is no way he could start next to Luka defending the point of attack. Same as THJ can't. Or Brunson. So we would have 3 guys that are best suited for bench scoring punch within how Mavs team is constructed. I think he would be sort of redundant.

However, since we saw that losing Curry shooting did hurt us, I am more careful about throwing away THJ shooting. He is elite. I too can't really see him as a starter, but would any middle of the pack FA really bring such improvement that loss of THJ shooting would be forgotten? The big question is his salary. But since Lowry and THJ is supposed to be the goal, I can't really see how we could bring in Lowry at 30 and THJ at 20. Mavs are either bluffing or their salaries will be much lower or they will not keep KP.

(07-28-2021, 09:35 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]Totally agree with the first part. I think Mavs wouldn't be any better with Curry than they were with JRich. Was there a better trade available? We don't know. 

Curry works great in Philly because he is surrounded by 4 great defenders. With Mavs there is no way he could start next to Luka defending the point of attack. Same as THJ can't. Or Brunson. So we would have 3 guys that are best suited for bench scoring punch within how Mavs team is constructed. I think he would be sort of redundant.

However, since we saw that losing Curry shooting did hurt us, I am more careful about throwing away THJ shooting. He is elite. I too can't really see him as a starter, but would any middle of the pack FA really bring such improvement that loss of THJ shooting would be forgotten? The big question is his salary. But since Lowry and THJ is supposed to be the goal, I can't really see how we could bring in Lowry at 30 and THJ at 20. Mavs are either bluffing or their salaries will be much lower or they will not keep KP.

Unfortunately, there is a path to Lowry and THJ.  It involves S&T and sending out assets to do it.  It could be a disaster.

As for THJ, there are plenty of free agents that can bring roughly his offense and more to the table, and some of them wont be that much more.  There are also options that will bring close to his offense at cheaper cost (like a McDermott).  I don't disagree that we need spacing next to Luka, but there are plenty of options out there.

(07-28-2021, 09:35 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]Totally agree with the first part. I think Mavs wouldn't be any better with Curry than they were with JRich. Was there a better trade available? We don't know. 

Curry works great in Philly because he is surrounded by 4 great defenders. With Mavs there is no way he could start next to Luka defending the point of attack. Same as THJ can't. Or Brunson. So we would have 3 guys that are best suited for bench scoring punch within how Mavs team is constructed. I think he would be sort of redundant.

However, since we saw that losing Curry shooting did hurt us, I am more careful about throwing away THJ shooting. He is elite. I too can't really see him as a starter, but would any middle of the pack FA really bring such improvement that loss of THJ shooting would be forgotten? The big question is his salary. But since Lowry and THJ is supposed to be the goal, I can't really see how we could bring in Lowry at 30 and THJ at 20. Mavs are either bluffing or their salaries will be much lower or they will not keep KP.

I'm pretty much on board with that. It's why my preference would be to overhaul the roster now and get a better 4 other starters to pair with Luka that fit what we know now what he needs. Is ELITE (albeit volatile) 3 shooting such a necessity if all 4 of the 5 guys shoot with better confidence than DFS and Maxi? 

What I mean is, do we need most of the elite 3pt scoring to come from 1 guy, or can it be spread out more to guys that can get the shot off faster and with more confidence than our 2 homegrown products. I think that improves the overall scoring while not relying on 1 guy to do it.

(07-28-2021, 09:45 AM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]Unfortunately, there is a path to Lowry and THJ.  It involves S&T and sending out assets to do it.  It could be a disaster.

I find it extremely difficult (costly) to create a path with JRich and Kleber or Powell as outgoing contracts. As someone said - is THJ really worth such a sacrifice?

Draft is tomorrow, 5 days until free agency.

(07-28-2021, 09:20 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]So, a few things about the bolded. 

I think at this point in his career and taking this last season under consideration, Maxi's contract is at or above his value on the court (at least in terms of what other teams would value him in trade).

At his value seems fair too, it´s really hard to compare his production, no way I would say he was overpaid.

(07-28-2021, 09:20 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]I think in terms of THJ's "another team's value" I agree that he was worth his contract to some teams that need that kind of production, not all teams, and not the Mavs. We need more from one of the open positions (SG-PF or SG, SF and C depending on where KP lands with Kidd). IF DFS is staying AND starting, he takes up the SF spot as a defender/glue guy that isn't a creator/distributor. That means we NEED to find a creator/defender/distributor in at least 1 of the other 2 open positions, SG and PF or C. We NEED a couple more high end perimeter defenders at that point because of what the rest of the team is on defense. We also NEED a bigger body in that PF or C spot to take the bigger bodied players in the league off of KP's hands. I just don't see what they see in making THJ a priority signing in the offseason, unless he's a priority 6th man signing at $12-15M.

Where does this come from? He and Luka won us our most important games with KP as a decoy and like nothing than average production from DFS against the most talented team in this leauge.

He was never better as with us, he is the perfect shooter next to Luka.

We don´t need a PF-starter, we need a Luka backup.

(07-28-2021, 09:20 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Powell's contract and playing position are pretty big obstacles for this roster, I think it is underselling it to say he "might have been overpayed".

He looked like a worldbeater in some later games, was an universe away at the beginning - people are calling to pay Holmes 20Mio for equal to lesser PnR and a little rimprotection. If he is a causality for the Lowry SnT we will find a comperable player for an comparable pricetag. 

(07-28-2021, 09:20 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Based on last season's production, KP is also not in "might have been overpayed" territory. I doubt there is a team out there that wants him bad enough to pay what the Mavs should get in trade for him. I think he'll show up in the early part of the season and show what he's worth, I won't bet against him playing well enough to make the all star team in all honesty. However, as of right now, in this moment, the people that are most down on him (looking at you KL and DFS98) are closer to right than those who are most high on him.

Not talking KP here.

(07-28-2021, 09:20 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Green had a horrible rookie season, Terry had a disastrous few games and then was non-existent. Doubt there are many teams that would view either as an asset right now, but there are probably a few.

Still see their potencial and want to keep them, so I don´t care what other teams think of them.

(07-28-2021, 09:20 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]After all that, saying "The problem was" and then referring to the Curry for JRich trade as being THE problem with last year's team seems too far off the mark to me. Sure, Having Curry on that team last year MIGHT have been an improvement. I really doubt the improvement in him personally would have been the same as we saw in PHI though. He just wasn't utilized well enough here, and his confidence in shooting the ball skyrocketed in PHI. Here he was a timid shooter that would only put the ball up on WIDE, WIDE, WIDE open shots, and hardly was a crunch time savior because of that too.

Don´t care what he did in Philly - he did the exact thing we missed this year last year for us, as JRich gave us the same as Delon - nothing.

I´m not saying we have assets, but we have the framework for a very good team around Luka and some cap this year.

(07-28-2021, 10:21 AM)Mapka Wrote: [ -> ]At his value seems fair too, it´s really hard to compare his production, no way I would say he was overpaid.


Where does this come from? He and Luka won us our most important games with KP as a decoy and like nothing than average production from DFS against the most talented team in this leauge.

He was never better as with us, he is the perfect shooter next to Luka.

We don´t need a PF-starter, we need a Luka backup.



He looked like a worldbeater in some later games, was an universe away at the beginning - people are calling to pay Holmes 20Mio for equal to lesser PnR and a little rimprotection. If he is a causality for the Lowry SnT we will find a comperable player for an comparable pricetag. 


Not talking KP here.



Still see their potencial and want to keep them, so I don´t care what other teams think of them.



Don´t care what he did in Philly - he did the exact thing we missed this year last year for us, as JRich gave us the same as Delon - nothing.

I´m not saying we have assets, but we have the framework for a very good team around Luka and some cap this year.

You're not saying they're assets, but you're responding to a post from Kamm in which he does say he wishes we had guys on the team that were assets.

It sounds like you're getting your personal feelings about these players mixed up with what other FOs would want from them. The other FOs don't care about what you think about them, they care about making their teams better.

(07-28-2021, 10:21 AM)Mapka Wrote: [ -> ]I´m not saying we have assets, but we have the framework for a very good team around Luka and some cap this year.

I think this is where we disagree the most. We have a bunch of parts that don't fit in the roles they're put into. I think some of them would be tremendous in lesser roles, but we need to have the higher role guys before we fill in the type of guys we have. I don't see it as 1 or 2 pieces, although there are some high end 1 or 2 pieces that right this ship quickly, but I'm not holding out hope that they can get those 1 or 2 high end pieces.