(02-12-2022, 09:57 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]I think "not going after Dragic" tells us nothing, except that they had decided to invest those minutes in SD. Going into next season, if Brunson re-signs, there will still be 16 players with contracts fighting for 15 roster slots (including 1st rounder), and FN hasn't really distinguished himself to any degree.
Yeah, I agree with the first point, and kind of didn’t think about that part enough when I was typing earlier.
But my overall goal in this conversation, which has now gotten sidetracked and become a conversation about Ntilikina due to my inarticulate approach, was to assert that I do not believe the roster will look like this after the draft. I do not believe these 16 players (or 15, rather - Brunson’s status will be undecided at that time) will still be here.
That’s really all I stuck my beak into the conversation to convey.
I could be way off base here but I think the roles on the mavs are as follows:
Nico: Mostly relationship building (with free agency) and back office management. Not much to do with trades or draft.
Baker: trade and cap issues.
Finley: Draft and player development.
Cuban: Heavily involved in trade, cap, TV crap, business ventures and free agency. Probably the real GM with Baker, Nico, and Finley mostly going through him with any significant decisions. (Understandably the money issues need to go thru him).
It just feels like this is why we are so inept. Cuban has too much control and has a lot of non-mav irons in the fire.
I apologize if this has been posted already. I have not been posting for long. Appreciate the boards patience with my potential redundancy.
If so, how many NBA clubs are set up this way?
(02-13-2022, 03:52 PM)Davemo Wrote: [ -> ]I could be way off base here but I think the roles on the mavs are as follows:
Nico: Mostly relationship building (with free agency) and back office management. Not much to do with trades or draft.
Did you miss the press conference with Nico above where he was checking Bertans footwork on defense before the trade? Seven-figure executives don't waste their time doing things like that unless that's information that's relevant to what they are actually doing. We may never have a great read on how much Cuban is still making final decisions vs. letting Nico make the call, but everything indicates that Nico is very directly involved in player evaluation.
(02-13-2022, 03:52 PM)Davemo Wrote: [ -> ]Cuban: Heavily involved in trade, cap, TV crap, business ventures and free agency. Probably the real GM with Baker, Nico, and Finley mostly going through him with any significant decisions. (Understandably the money issues need to go thru him).
I don't think the evidence points in this direction. What we know for certain is that Cuban must approve any decision where big money is being spent...but that would be typical of owners.
I think much fan-fiction has been dreamed up about the role of Cuban that just isn't true. And with the disorganization and chaos that happened on Donnie's watch, an environment was created where people have imagined a lot of false things about Cuban's involvement.
I am on the record stating that the issue in the last decade wasn't too much involvement from Cuban, but too little. That is my take on the snippets and pieces of truth we have.
(02-13-2022, 04:24 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]I think much fan-fiction has been dreamed up about the role of Cuban that just isn't true. And with the disorganization and chaos that happened on Donnie's watch, an environment was created where people have imagined a lot of false things about Cuban's involvement.
Agreed. Cuban didn't get where he is by not listening to others. I never fault him for the Mavericks talent.
I have a problem with Cuban inside the front office structure... the sexual misconduct stuff and the general manager debacle reek of something poorly run with a sloppy chain-of-command.
But the Dallas Mavericks product on the court I believe has the input of all the appropriate people
(02-13-2022, 04:24 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think the evidence points in this direction. What we know for certain is that Cuban must approve any decision where big money is being spent...but that would be typical of owners.
I think much fan-fiction has been dreamed up about the role of Cuban that just isn't true. And with the disorganization and chaos that happened on Donnie's watch, an environment was created where people have imagined a lot of false things about Cuban's involvement.
I am on the record stating that the issue in the last decade wasn't too much involvement from Cuban, but too little. That is my take on the snippets and pieces of truth we have.
The reports about Parson´s or Fegan´s role are fan-fiction? The Bob draft night drama is made up? Those things happened. If Cuban didn´t pay attention it was his fault. He himself mentioned that he has final say on important decisions. If that´s the case he is responsible. So those things happened under Cuban´s watch.
Strongly disagree with your take on the situation. Agree that Cuban wasn´t as involved in the day to day stuff. Problem was that he still wanted to make the big decisions.
(02-13-2022, 06:10 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]The reports about Parson´s or Fegan´s role are fan-fiction? The Bob draft night drama is made up? Those things happened. If Cuban didn´t pay attention it was his fault. He himself mentioned that he has final say on important decisions. If that´s the case he is responsible. So those things happened under Cuban´s watch.
Strongly disagree with your take on the situation. Agree that Cuban wasn´t as involved in the day to day stuff. Problem was that he still wanted to make the big decisions.
So my take at this time:
Donnie ran a completely inept organization. He was the president of basketball operations but did not function as such as far as leading and streamlining everything. There was never one single voice from the organization coming from the president. Because of this many, MANY voices could get to and were trying to get to Cuban. Donnie, RC, Bob, Fegan, Parson, etc were all jockeying for power. Cuban had many competing voices in his ear and not a single organized voice and so he didn't know what to listen to.
This IS Cuban's fault. He should have seen the dysfunction and stopped it. But he let it persist. But it didn't happen because he wanted to make decisions on his own. He WAS listening to people, but just didn't know who to listen to in the chaos. AND he was too involved with many other side projects. He needed to be MORE involved in the Mavs OR just let another voice make the calls.
My hope moving forward?
Everything in the organization gets filtered through Nico. Nico ALONE comes to Cuban and presents the plan. Cuban then asks questions to understand why and then checks off on it. Done.
(02-13-2022, 06:43 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]So my take at this time:
Donnie ran a completely inept organization. He was the president of basketball operations but did not function as such as far as leading and streamlining everything. There was never one single voice from the organization coming from the president. Because of this many, MANY voices could get to and were trying to get to Cuban. Donnie, RC, Bob, Fegan, Parson, etc were all jockeying for power. Cuban had many competing voices in his ear and not a single organized voice and so he didn't know what to listen to.
This IS Cuban's fault. He should have seen the dysfunction and stopped it. But he let it persist. But it didn't happen because he wanted to make decisions on his own. He WAS listening to people, but just didn't know who to listen to in the chaos. AND he was too involved with many other side projects. He needed to be MORE involved in the Mavs OR just let another voice make the calls.
I totally disagree with you on what you think you see - it feels that you are trying to rewrite the history to suit your chosen narrative.
Prior to Nico, once Nellie left, Cuban was the GM. Not only did Donnie answer to him, but he also BY HIS DESIGN did the same setup with his other major players. MC hired them, they gave input to MC, and they answered to MC. The reason that Donnie was only one voice among many wasn't because DN was lax but rather because they were not his subordinates. It was a world in which there was a "team" approach to big decisions, with all giving input to MC who would then make the call. IOW he was doing what any GM does.
There was never much question that's how it worked, but it wasn't made apparent to fandom until the chaos hit. Once some of it leaked, no one hid it, and if you don't see it now, you're in denial bro.
If there was jockeying for power as you term it, it wasn't because DN was lazy, but rather because that's the way MC designed his company. MC felt he could, with the right helpers, be The League's Best GM, and when Nellie left, he had just as much experience as anyone else in the building at doing that job, so that's what he did. Very badly.
Cuban created the dysfunction with his setup. It lasted because he thought he just needed one more voice. Plus another. Plus another. Etc.
It looks like he finally hired someone instead of himself who will be The GM, with Nico (who oddly was chosen despite no experience at the job), but we'll see.
(02-13-2022, 06:43 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]So my take at this time:
Donnie ran a completely inept organization. He was the president of basketball operations but did not function as such as far as leading and streamlining everything. There was never one single voice from the organization coming from the president. Because of this many, MANY voices could get to and were trying to get to Cuban. Donnie, RC, Bob, Fegan, Parson, etc were all jockeying for power. Cuban had many competing voices in his ear and not a single organized voice and so he didn't know what to listen to.
This IS Cuban's fault. He should have seen the dysfunction and stopped it. But he let it persist. But it didn't happen because he wanted to make decisions on his own. He WAS listening to people, but just didn't know who to listen to in the chaos. AND he was too involved with many other side projects. He needed to be MORE involved in the Mavs OR just let another voice make the calls.
My hope moving forward?
Everything in the organization gets filtered through Nico. Nico ALONE comes to Cuban and presents the plan. Cuban then asks questions to understand why and then checks off on it. Done.
Until Rondo is once again available. Then he will listen to Nico’s counter argument and find someone in the organization who agrees with him and use that as his reason to make sure it happens. Reports were that the triangle of trust as had Rick AND Donnie who said no, then MC brought in Dirk who was good with it and MC said make it happen. There will be a honeymoon phase before this most likely happens again, but, it’ll most likely happen again.
(02-13-2022, 07:15 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]you're in denial bro.
I don't believe I am in denial, I just haven't seen anything definitive that Cuban was the GM in the truest sense. Yes, he checked off on everything, but that is different. There are stories of recent drafts and Cuban is nowhere to be found. That isn't a GM.
If you have a report or story I have missed that clarifies this, please share it.
MC should no longer get any benefit of the doubt. If it looks like a duckand sounds like a duck, it’s probably MC making the decision. THJ’s contract looks like a duck, Dinwiddie sounds like a duck.
Like i said…i could be way off. I think Cuban thinks he can do it all and do it better than anyone else. Nico talking about footwork…..maybe or maybe he is parroting his scouts so he will sound better. I dont know. We have heard many say. “Oh, they threw in a second round pick…same old mavs”….same old Cuban? I thought that was a Donnie thing. Maybe he is “tudoring” Nico in a sense….a scary thought but who will show him the ropes?
Cuban may be forced to be more involved given the new faces (nico and baker) which is what I may be sensing. By involved…I am meaning more decision making but not necessarily the appropriate time given all his other interests. I just hope Nico is doing more than glad handing and internal organization charts. I want a real GM. He should be able to do this given the background…..his news conference did not convince me for some reason.
Some good replies to my post….I hope I am wrong!
Considering how lightly he and the organization got off for the misconduct in the business operation side and how much Cuban likes to boast about being a "hands on owner", he deserves no benefit of the doubt. I also don't believe that he was unaware of the abuse occurring under his nose.
(02-13-2022, 07:19 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]I just haven't seen anything definitive that Cuban was the GM in the truest sense. Yes, he checked off on everything, but ...
What you are failing to see (or denying) is that what you describe by MC is what GMs (not owners) do. You want to label it as behavior for an Owner, but it's not. Far from it.
The Typical Owner will have the GM weigh in on bigger money issues, budget, tax limits, and reserve veto power.
But the GM figures out how to build the roster. GMs do the negotiating of trades and contracts. They handle the draft and decide who does what. GMs hire (and fire) others needed to provide help in those chores. The guys with info, with analysis, with opinions, with ideas, they work for the GM, they bring their input to the GM, and he weighs it and makes the call. They might delegate some of those chores, but they might not.
That's what MC has done. That's who he's been. Don't doubt it - no one close to the team for any amount of time will tell you otherwise. It's been fairly obvious.
By both words and deeds, it looks like he's (finally) hired someone else to be The GM now. Hopefully he won't reverse course in a flash of ego.
(02-12-2022, 09:32 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, I get it, trust me.
All that I am suggesting is that with the kind of changes I think are coming in the very near future, I don’t think anyone is safe. I think decisions are going to be made based on salary matching and not much else.
I don’t think they are trying to get rid of him or anything. I think not going after Dragic pretty much proves that they don’t view him as expendable like Moses.
If I'm in Nico's shoes the only person on that roster that's safe is Luka. Anyone and everyone else can be considered expendable on some level. I wouldn't give pieces away but I wouldn't hold anyone back. I would have the scouting crew and Kidd put a value grade on every player on the roster not named Luka. Then, I would have them look at player groupings around the league.
What I mean by groupings is to have certain groups of players that would fit around Luka and work well together chemistry wise. (Their best guess anyway). Just because a player is good doesn't mean he's a fit. Look at the Wizards. I would take a money ball style approach to it but with player groupings similar to the way NFL teams do it. Certain types of players fit well together in a grouping. Certain ones just don't. I would put intelligence and attitude first also. Luka needs high IQ guys playing around him that will know their role and stick to it. Nothing else would matter. Very similar to how the Bulls dynasty teams were built.
(02-13-2022, 08:21 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]But the GM figures out how to build the roster. GMs do the negotiating of trades and contracts. They handle the draft and decide who does what. GMs hire (and fire) others needed to provide help in those chores. The guys with info, with analysis, with opinions, with ideas, they work for the GM, they bring their input to the GM, and he weighs it and makes the call. They might delegate some of those chores, but they might not.
That's what MC has done. That's who he's been. Don't doubt it - no one close to the team for any amount of time will tell you otherwise. It's been fairly obvious.
This has not been my impression from the things I have read. As just one example, if Cuban was the guy you described above then why did opposing GMs not know who to call or talk to with trade negotiations?
You might have some inside info I don't have. But from the articles I have read I haven't gotten the impression of Cuban filling the roles you described above. If you have something for me to read that shows this I would be very happy to change my opinion on this. I have no vested interest in my current opinion other than it makes sense of what I have seen (and I am just a fan with no other insight than that).
(02-13-2022, 08:37 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]As just one example, if Cuban was the guy you described above then why did opposing GMs not know who to call or talk to with trade negotiations?
It's interesting to me that you see data points like these, that further reveal MC's role, and opt to turn them into something different than they were.
There were two iterations of MC handling the negotiations, that peel back the curtain on his style and (apparent lack of) expertise.
The first was more than a decade ago, where we heard MC complain that it's hard for him to get trades done, because he'd make an offer and then the guy he was talking to would have to get it approved from someone else. Then the price would go up. (The fact that he didn't see the advantage he as the bottom-line negotiator was ceding to "gotta ask my boss" negotiating setups, as any car salesman uses, was cringe-worthy.)
The second was the one you just cite. Mavbe in the interim he had wised up, but the end result was the chaos you describe. Your example shows the Mavs with multiple people chasing possible deals, rather than Donnie being the one with authority to deal. Then ______ and _____ would take possibilities to MC to see what he thought. It's further evidence that MC was doing the GMing, while any number of people (including Donnie) might be bringing input to him. If Donnie had been the GM, every offer would have been funneled to him. That "multiple voices" system, confusing to other teams, was pure MC-as-GM.
(02-13-2022, 07:24 PM)Davemo Wrote: [ -> ]maybe or maybe he is parroting his scouts so he will sound better.
Which still leaves us with him taking the time to listen to and remember what the scouts are telling him. Again, if his role is only to go get the guys someone else has decided they want, he's not wasting his time doing that, and when he gets to the press conference he just says "we think Bertrans is a good fit". That he's getting into the details of why he's a good (or at least non-negative fit), then he's clearly actually involved in the talent evaluation process. (Whether or not he's any good at it is still an open question).
I hope you are right! I want him listening to his scouts and at least doing some basic evaluation himself. He pretty much has too if he hopes to put a balanced roster on the court. I still am worried this is the MC show but we will see. I think MC is, in general, way more involved in talent evaluation and trade discussion than I want……he is just too involved in other things to not hand this over. MC must hire properly and get out of the way until the heavy money decisions need discussion. MC is a smart guy which is also his biggest fault. I wont get into that but he just appears way too close to his players, appears to have his fingerprints all over trades, and I think he loves being that way. It is his team and his money and he can do what he wants…..he is much too hands on IMO. I still do appreciate that he is a Mavs fan in some respect….weird dichotomy.
(02-13-2022, 11:16 PM)Davemo Wrote: [ -> ]I hope you are right! I want him listening to his scouts and at least doing some basic evaluation himself. He pretty much has too if he hopes to put a balanced roster on the court. I still am worried this is the MC show but we will see. I think MC is, in general, way more involved in talent evaluation and trade discussion than I want……he is just too involved in other things to not hand this over. MC must hire properly and get out of the way until the heavy money decisions need discussion. MC is a smart guy which is also his biggest fault. I wont get into that but he just appears way too close to his players, appears to have his fingerprints all over trades, and I think he loves being that way. It is his team and his money and he can do what he wants…..he is much too hands on IMO. I still do appreciate that he is a Mavs fan in some respect….weird dichotomy.
Good thoughts. I think most of us share this POV.
Despite the fun to read argument between @"Kammrath" and @"F Gump" for the past few pages about the history of the Mavs FO, both of them have led the charge about the idea that all signs point to Nico Harrison having been given the keys (for now). Personally, I am starting to agree, mostly because the decision to admit the Porzingis deal was a mistake (finally) seems like something that Cuban would've been reluctant to do in the past.